Talk:Kes (film)

Illjjegal behaviour

In the article: "There is a strong concentration on falconry in the film but the film does not encourage any illegal behaviour with respect to falcons" This is non-factual POV so I called for a reference to back this up (sadly, for one thing no matter how well Billy treats Kes, he doesn't have a licence to keep birds of prey so is technically breaking the law). References have been provided but they were merelkkky more opinion POV, based on interpretations of the film dialogue and situations. A reference should be from a verifiable credible secondary source. WP:Verifiability So I am removing the 'references' and putting back the request for credible references. Magic Pickle 15:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Extinct?

Stoo-an extinct? I think not. Ever heard a Geordie speak (yes I know not a Yorkshire accent but still ...) Hmm.

Candy 19:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought that was strange, but I haven't stayed long enough up that way recently so I couldn't be sure. You could change it to something like "is no longer used in Yorkshire" -- SteveCrook 19:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Vanity here?

Following is an extract from a posting made to the SHAKSPER message board today. No comment from me. AndyJones 19:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, for me the major problem with Wikipedia is that users are allowed to advertise their own often sub-standard work. For example, a chancer called Simon W. Golding has just delivered a vanity-published book on Ken Loach's seminal film, 'Kes'. The book is atrocious beyond belief: as well as being bereft of filmic insight or even the capacity to process basic information, the man literally cannot write a proper sentence; there has been no editor to correct his incompetent English. But the Wikipedia entry on 'Kes - the film' contains a massive plug for this book - one that has to have been placed there by the author or his associates. Every time one intervenes, toning down the self-praise for this book, one's intervention is quickly vandalised off the site, and the glorifying plug for it is restored. This, I am told, is a fairly typical Wikipedia experience.

So the correct procedure is to remove the reference to it. Not to leave the reference and comment on it. -- SteveCrook 20:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Can you clarify? AndyJones 20:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Leaving the notes about the book - but adding a comment saying how terrible it is, (as someone has been trying to do recently) is still just advertising it. If you agree with the poster quoted and think the book is atrocious then surely all reference to it should be removed. Either that or just leave it as a basic reference because the book exists, but remove all the descriptions. -- SteveCrook 21:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Until I've actually read this book or seen a proper review that says it's atrocious I would tend to just leave the bare details about the book. It is a book that exists and there are some reviews, like the one in the [http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?sectionid=55&articleid=1245384 that doesn't give the impression that it's atrocious. I suspect there might be a personal vendetta at work against the author. Not by you AndyJones but by whoever is posting these comments. -- SteveCrook 23:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed this sentence just now which was (I assume) sneakily hidden at the bottom of the page.

"The book 'Life After Kes' is vanity-published and very badly written - written by someone who does not have university qualifications. It is full of mistakes and written in a manner that borders on the illiterate. It should not be advertised here on Wikipedia."

Could I point out a few issues to the perpetrator please?

1. PoV about a book or reference are not in the spirit or guidlines of Wikipedia. Please be aware what you are doing is close to sly vandalism.

2. It is not necessary to have university qualifications in order to do anything well and if one has university qualifications it does not necessarily mean that things will be done well. They are non-sequiturs.

3. It is not being advertised. It is a reference. As I have not read the book and did not add the link I cannot add my PoV as to whether it is literature. Perhaps the contributer could express some opinion (or someone else who has read it).

Thank you Candy 14:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I assume the guy who made this edit is the same guy whose posting to SHAKSPER I quote above. Exactly why he thinks vandalising wikipedia in this way is an appropriate response to (allegedly) poor sourcing is not clear to me, at all. Obviously I know his name and email address so I could contact him off-wikipedia. The arrogance of his ridiculous views about University education don't encourage me to believe we'd have a temperate correspondence, though. Let's see if his behaviour becomes a problem. Also we might check if the book in question really is vanity published. If so, it's likely to fall well below the WP:RS standard, and should probably be removed anyway. AndyJones 17:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Clean up and expansion

I took a lot of what was good and reworded it. Added a brief synopsis with spoiler notice (haven't seen the film for about a year so my memories may be wrong). I purposefully left out Glover's highly amusing (or if you went to school in the north of England sadly accurate) reflection of some PE teachers because although wonderful it wouldn't have added anything.

I would like to try to find some references to the falconry issues in the book (both protests and perhaps info about how they trained the falcon for the film).

The cast part should be expanded to include the main cast by character and actor's name (hence Mr Glover should be added here) and exactly where they were born perhaps (the actor whose name I forget playing the encouraging English teacher was a "foreigner" coming from the neighbouring county of lancashire.

I added extra refs inclucing the BFI top 10 which was already in the text. I removed the reference referred to in the above section (Vanity Here?) purely because compared with the other links it is clearly now sub-standard containing no relevent information to support the film except essentially an advertisement for a book.

Leaving it up to others to make some contributions (probably correct typos and formatting as well) ;) and perhaps take up the flame. Candy 23:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What's this complete rubbish about the teachers speaking in Received Pronunciation (RP) does whoever wrote this know what RP is as all the teachers speak in various Yorkshire accents with the exception of the English teacher who speaks with a south Lancastrian accent.

They all did except for Brian Glover, who had a moderated Yorkshire accent. I think that you are reffering to Welland here; he did have a slight Lancastrian twang, but he was generally R.P. All the other teachers were R.P. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-xZnnPhN8 The only Yorkshire accent that this teacher could possibly have is Harrogate. Note that saying "city" as citi was actually Standard English at one point before the Southerners got it changed. Epa101 (talk) 20:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Spoilers

I think this page needs a 'Spoilers' warning. --Paucolpitts2 15:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, done. -- SteveCrook 00:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kes DVD cover.jpg

Image:Kes DVD cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Was Freddie Fletcher born in Barnsley? Need a reference

I have put a next to the sentence about how Bradley and Fletcher were both born in Barnsley. There are lots of sources saying that Bradley was but none on Fletcher. http://books.guardian.co.uk/fba2005/story/0,,1657036,00.html He worked at Grimethorpe colliery. Epa101 (talk) 20:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Accents - inaccuracies ?

I saw this at the age of 9 in Cleckheaton (West Riding) - it had quite an effect on me - I'd never seen people speaking in Yorkshire accent or dialect in a film before, and found it very entertaining. Also much of the dialogue was slightly risque - swearing on TV or films was not common. The phrase "where's me pillocking bike" in the first five minutes was quite shocking, and made us all giggle. Strangely it wasn't really a word we'd ever heard - but used a lot afterwards - it does appear to have been deliberately muddled up in more recent DVD editions.

At the time I didn't realise the differences between the South Yorkshire / West Yorkshire / Lancashire & General North of England accents - and considered the accents to be "Broad Yorkshire". As an adult I realise now that the main differences between South and West Yorkshire speech, are largely in terms of the dialect as opposed to the accents. The dialect is essentially the same - however it was (is) less commonly used in West Yorkshire. It would not have been common to use the amount of dialect as these characters do in school in a West Yorkshire school in 1970 - however it may well have been in South Yorks - where the film is set.

There are some odd bits of dialogue. The first scene itself is fascinating. At one point Billy says "I'm not gonna work down the pit" It's so out of kilter - in real life he'd have said "I'm not gonna work down 't pit" - with the 't being an almost silent glottal stop. If he was speaking "broad" - as he does in most of the film he'd have said "I'm no-an gonna work down 't pit" in fact he might have even said "I'm no-an bahnna work down 't pit". The word "work" as well would probably be compacted similar to "wuk" as prevalent in South Yorks or East Lancashire. In W. Yorks. "work" would only be contracted when "talking broad" - in informal situations (or among old people !)

I think the reality is that there were many actors in this film from all parts of Yorkshire and the North who were experimenting with a new way of communicating. Much as they wanted to deliver natural dialogue, it wasn't really possible - not least because almost of all of them would have been told not to speak "broad" in their work earlier in their careers (even David Bradley).

Whoever said that the teachers all speak with RP - Received Pronunciation is entirely incorrect. Brian Glover had an archetypal South Yorkshire accent and most of the other accents are genuine Northern ones. Colin Welland - although born in Liverpool and spending much of his young life in Lancashire has what I would describe as a very West Yorkshire accent.

It's possible that what is meant is that they use Standard English - although the pronunciation is very definitely Yorkshire/Northern - they do not use dialect. This is generally the practice in West Yorkshire - although most people can still use dialect forms, and will do so in informal situations.

Reight Ahm bahn t' me bed nah - Ahm laiking togger tomor'n !

78.32.193.115 (talk) 01:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right. There is an enduring myth that parts of the film were dubbed, which I can believe. For example, the scene in which the boys are waiting outside the headmaster's office for the cane involves very dull voices and a complete lack of dialect. Some other scenes, such as the fight scene, seem more authentic. I think that the use of dialect in "Kes" is the main reason why it is remembered so fondly. It's a shame that there were not more films made like this, as other counties have a traditional dialect that has since passed away, and capturing them all on film would've been great.

Barnsley has quite a stable population: White working-class people whose families have lived there for a long time. Some areas of West Yorkshire are like this as well: e.g. Wakefield, Pontefract, Holmfirth. These are the areas in which the dialect is best-maintained. The big cities in West Yorkshire have had lots of people move in from other areas of the country and of the world, so the local dialect has inevitably been lost as people need to talk to those who are not familiar with it. Sheffield has a markedly different accent from the rest of Yorkshire though: for example, they use a final hard g in "king, ring, sing" the same way that Scousers and Mancunians do; also, they say "one" to rhyme with "gone", "among" to rhyme with "song", etc. which is not common in West Yorkshire or Barnsley. 90.197.171.208 (talk) 08:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Changes to dialogue

I've been unable to find sources which confirm the dialogue has changed on the DVD release and more recent releases of the film. This doesn't seem likely and, as it has been unsourced for at least seven months, I've removed it per WP:V. --JD554 (talk) 14:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you've made the right decision. I have heard the story before, but it may be an urban myth. Wikipedia shouldn't really promote it. 90.197.171.208 (talk) 08:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Reversion

• User:Anthony Appleyard reverted the edit I made, which acknowledged this film's presence on the BFI list of the 50 films you should see by the age of 14. I reverted his reversion, and hope he'll discuss here any future attempt to do so again. 67.101.6.168 (talk) 08:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC).
  • I re-reverted because the addition looked like advertizement: see WP:SPAM. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I do not think this is spam because the British Film Institute is a charitable organization. However, a film will get on many lists after its release, and I do not believe that this is a particularly discriminate list to identify. Erik (talk | contribs | wt:film) 19:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
      • I agree that the British Film Institute (the organization responsible for film certifications etc in the UK) is extremely unlikely to be spamming Wikipedia. But do not see why the list shouldn't be added. It seems reasonable to me. --JD554 (talk) 19:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    • The BFI, like the American Film Institute and the AMPAS, give awards and generate "best of" lists of films as promotional activities for the film industry. But for some organizations, like the BFI, WP consensus is that their promotional activities are notable, so the inclusion cannot be considered WP:SPAM. If you have an urge to tilt at this particular pop culture windmill, at least pick a target much more deserving of your distain— I nominate the Hollywood Foreign Press Association and the Golden Globe Awards. 66.167.48.64 (talk) 20:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)