Talk:The Evolution of Cooperation

I don't know about U.S. publications but the UK penguin edition is entitled 'The Evolution of Co-operation' as opposed to 'The Evolution of Cooperation' as it is in this article. MagicBez 17:49, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Criticism: Neglects recognition/assessment of value of information

This is one of my favourite books with all sorts of potential for pragmatic ethics. One thing troubles me though: the exposition never addressed the question of the extent of knowledge available to the algorithms. Tit-for-Tat manages with the minimum on information; namely just he record of the last encounter with its (recognised) opponent. Its certainly possible that better results might be achieved by an algorithm with access to more complete information, such as:

1) record of encounters with this opponent
2) record of opponent's encounters (including with other participants)
3) record of encounters with all opponents
4) record of all encounters between any combination of opponents
5) points already acquired by the opponent
6) opponent's source code.

6 is an extreme case where it is very obvious that the information would lead to improved results. The value of information in other case, while certainly less blatant, can still be supported by compelling arguments:

2 may be partially comparable to 6, in that in many cases it may be possible to reverse engineer a opponent's algorithm. Also, some combinations of the information above would add to an algorithms's knowledge of the make up of the algorithm population. For instance, it would help in quickly establishing a reliable assessment of the proportion of nice algorithms (cf Axelrod's use of this term), allowing one's own algorithm to make global adjustments as appropriate. 5 is useful as an input to decisions on disruptive behaviour ("stop the leader" - in games where a algorithm is more interested in finishing first than in attaining a high point total) and might also serve as a single parameter estimate of an opponent's non-cooperativeness and/or exploitability.

The potential for using information about the opponent algorithm's performance in a variety of ways to enhance one's own algorithm's performance seems fairly transparent, and it is surprising that this is neglected. Another interesting field of study would be to assess the value of certain types of information. What would be a fair handicap for an algorithm to accept (in negative starting points) for certain types of information delivered at certain times.

The above comments, intended as criticisms on Axelrod's book, may also qualify as original research. Hence my reluctance to introduce them into the article. However I'd very much welcome responses from Wikipedians with similar interests/insights..

--Philopedia 18:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

link to journal article

Can anyone provide a link to the mentioned journal article.Kendirangu 10:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Notice of intent to do major overhaul and augmentation.

In case anyone would like to warn me off: I am intending to do a major overhaul and augmentation of this article. An initial version can be seen [|here] (if that server hasn't crashed). I hope this will be satisfactory to all concerned. J. Johnson (talk) 23:15, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I think the major work is done, with no major major problems. Could use some images - anyone have any ideas as to what kind of images would be useful? J. Johnson (talk) 22:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV tag

I've added the NPOV tag to the article. In parts, it is written like a pamphlet. This may just reflect the style of the authors of the book, but is still inappropriate for the article.—Graf Bobby (talk) 14:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Could you provide some details, like which parts seem deficient, and in what manner? I may be standing too close to the topic to have a clear view, so a careful explantion would be appreciated. J. Johnson (talk) 21:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The whole Social Darwinism vs. Mutual Aid section. To a lesser degree, the two subsequent sections (The Social Contract and Altruism and cooperation), and parts of Axelrod's Tournaments, for example the fourth paragraph ("While rightists could well take a lesson here that being "nice" can be beneficial, leftists should note that nice can lead to being suckered.").

The article seems to argue that Darwin and Ayn Rand prefer the merciless struggle, Hobbes, Rousseau and Melville could imagine cooperation only if forced from above, and then comes along Axelrod and disproves both sides. I don't know if that is actually the message of the book, since I haven't read it. It's not only a problem of POV, also of style; if the article were about a fictional theme, I'd say it was written in-universe.—Graf Bobby (talk) 13:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the particulars. I am not certain what to make of them, so will have to ponder on this for a while. I suspect it may be a POV issue. E.g., is it not true that the Social Darwinians adhere to a merciless struggle view? (I thought that was fairly self-evident, but even so I did cite a source.) The point of view I took is not that they are wrong (or even that Axelrod "disproved" anyone - I would say that he did not) but that Axelrod has shown another approach. Is there any kind of problem with that approach? J. Johnson (talk) 22:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The passages that mention Ayn Rand imply (without saying overtly) that Rand's rule is "never do anyone a favor." Her heroes in Atlas Shrugged (that's almost all I've read of hers) put themselves in danger to help someone, even a stranger, if doing so will help their cause. —Tamfang (talk) 05:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I keep looking at this, but, sorry, I just cannot see that there is any such implication. Nor even how such an implication (if there was such), or anything else in the article, in any way violates NPOV. You seem to feel a conflict between some examples from Atlas Shrugged and some aspect of the article. Perhaps it would help to note that (as far as I know) Rand had no problem with "strategic" (I think that was her word) arrangements of a cooperative nature. Provided, just as you said, "if doing so will help their cause". This is the essence of her "enlightened self-interest" – not "never do anyone a favor", but never "do a favor" without some benefit to oneself. This is the precise distinction between altruism and cooperation. (I discussed this in a subsequent section. Perhaps it is not clear enough?)

Again, I keep looking at this, but I do not see any violation of NPOV. Perhaps you could reassess whether you really see non-neutrality (or bias, or any other problem), or if there is some other reason why this seems to not sit well with you. And if there are any places that are simply confusing or not clear enough, please let me know and I will try to improve them. J. Johnson (talk) 01:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

My main problem with the article is that it presents Axelrod's concept of cooperation out of self-interest as something new when it isn't. ... [This discussion of "comparative advantage" moved to separate section, below. J. Johnson (talk) 22:31, 6 May 2009 (UTC)]

This is not about the significance of Axelrod's work, it is about the way his thoughts and his significance is presented in the article.

Take in comparison the articles about Ayn Rand and Objectivism. They present her thoughts and believes as exactly that, usually preceded with phrases like "Rand held", "Rand believed", or "Objectivism states". Her view of Kant is quoted verbatim, the article doesn't present it as a fact that he was full of hatred of the innocent, the strong, the able, the successful, the virtuous, the confident, the happy.

The Evolution of Cooperation article does a fairly good job at describing what Axelrod did, but as soon as it gets to his conclusions (i.e. the three sections Social Darwinism vs. Mutual Aid, The Social Contract, Altruism and cooperation) it becomes a sensationally written pamphlet that rarely quotes Axelrod (only once!) but lots of others whose relevance to the topic is not always clear.

• Did he explicitely refer to "Social Darwinists"? If so, why give Bowler's definition and not Axelrod's? Or did one explicitely relate to the other? Unlikely, since both books are from 1984. So what's Bowler's relevance to the topic at all?
• Did he refer to the other quoted authors? Are the quotes from his book? If not, how are they relevant here?

The section Axelrod's Tournaments quite well shows his concepts, with quotes, but still gives a POV and sometimes sensational impression. Phrases like these don't belong into an encyclopedical article outside verbatim quotes:

• There is a profound lesson here
• While rightists could well take a lesson here that being "nice" can be beneficial, leftists should note that nice can lead to being suckered.

As for my argument that the article presents Axelrod's concept of cooperation out of self-interest as something new when it isn't, the point is not that Axelrod didn't point out some new or overlooked aspects, but that the article fails to make clear what they are and instead presents a completely biased and incorrect view of any previous opinions, practically insinuating that advocates of laissez-faire capitalism are generally "Social Darwinists" opposed to mutual aid ignoring some simple facts:

• The laissez-faire concept is at least more than a hundred (if you count Taoism, about fifteen hundred) years older than the Origin of Species. It's older than Malthus' Essay on the Principle of Population as well.
• Oscar Schmidt, Émile Gautier and Giuseppe Vadalà-Papale, who used the term "Social Darwinism" first, are rather obscure, even to find out if they were for or against it is difficult. The term didn't gain popularity until much later, was usually applied deprecatory, and on people with as incompatible views as Herbert Spencer and Francis Galton. There never was a school of thought that went by this name.
• There is little evidence that classical liberalism was relevantly influenced by Darwin's work.
• Many advocates of laissez-faire capitalism object to Malthus' and Darwin's views.
• Advocates of laissez-faire capitalism don't see it as a Hobbesian struggle, its opponents do.

So basically, the articles takes anti-capitalist phrases and arguments and presents them as facts. That's the very definition of POV, isn't it?—Graf Bobby (talk) 18:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, some interesting points. I'll have to think on these for a while.J. Johnson (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've pondered on this for a while, and while I think some of your points are valid, on others I firmly disagree. Detailed response follows.

I am rather astounded by your statement that the article "takes anti-capitalist phrases and arguments and presents them as facts." That is patently not true. Capitalism is mentioned but once, and not to present or assert anything about capitalism, but to reference certain views where the larger issue of individualist versus collectivist ideologies often runs hot. What astounds me is that a mere reference to an issue about capitalism is deemed "anti-capitalist".

As to presenting "a completely biased and incorrect view of previous opinions": that is a ludicrous overstatement. While it seems reasonably likely that advocates of laissez-faire capitalism may generally have views that others might deem social Darwinism, that was not said. The perception that such was "practically" insinuated (by omission of some simple but irrelevant data of date and ideological pedigree?) suggests a hyper-sensitivity and lack of neutral point of view on your part.

That no school of thought self-identifies as "Social Darwinian" is beside the point. I would argue that it is a rough (as noted) but valid label for certain views, follow the link for fuller details. But my view here is also beside the point, as the rough characterization supplied is a near quote from Bowler – who is cited for that point.

That this article does not completely elaborate the positions of the so-called (as noted) Social Darwinians, Ayn Rand, or laissez-faire capitalism: so what? This article is not about them. (Want more about them? Hit the wiki-link!) It merely cites them to show that certain views are not without a certain authority. Lest you think the article is biased in this regard, let me point out that it equally and impartially fails to present a complete and exactly correct view of operations research, game theory, socio-biology, social contract theory, and the literary accomplishments of Herman Melville.

Aside from all that: there is a deeper issue here, which I believe I finally understand. (I thank you for the thoughtful, detailed explanation.) Which is not NPOV, but proper encyclopediac tone. Apparently this means (your interpretation, but I know of no other): just the dry facts, no comment or interpretation except as direct quotes from someone else. It implies that the editor is not trusted to introduce any comment, generalization, or explanation. (Which is deplorable, because proper commentary is nearly as important as proper selection of materials, and vital to the editorial function, which leads into a whole other topic. But if this is the community consensus, then so be it.)

By this standard this article is flawed from the beginning by statements (such as "The idea that human behavior can be usefully analyzed mathematically gained great credibility ....") that lack specific attribution. Even worse, it seems that the very intent of this article (to go beyond being a mere book report) is thus inappropriate for Wikipedia. I am thinking I should just take it down. J. Johnson (talk) 21:05, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, I guess you summed up WP:OR and WP:SOAP pretty well.—Graf Bobby (talk) 04:28, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not that I don't like "the rules", but that slavish application of them undermines a needed editorial function, leading to facile "truths" and even wooden writing. But this is another topic entirely, way beyond NPOV. J. Johnson (talk) 22:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

On the central issue of possible NPOV violation: quite aside from any other problems or confusions, it seems to me there is no substantial NPOV violation. If that is the case – if there is no other discussion – could the NPOV tag be taken down? J. Johnson (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As there has been no further comment for some while, I am going to presume that the specific NPOV concerns were allayed, and will be taking down the NPOV tag. I am also starting on a series of augmentations and re-structuring that I hope will address some of the other issues raised. J. Johnson (talk) 18:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

"Comparative advantage" recycled?

[I pulled the following out of the NPOV section as it seemed a separate subject. J. Johnson (talk) 22:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)]

My main problem with the article is that it presents Axelrod's concept of cooperation out of self-interest as something new when it isn't. The concept goes back at least to Adam Smith, who falously wrote "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." The concept of comparative advantage goes back to 1815/17.—Graf Bobby (talk) 13:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Er, how is comparative advantage relevant here? —Tamfang (talk) 18:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know when "comparative advantage" came into use as a term, but the concept certainly goes back at least as far Smith's The Wealth of Nations (1776); it is the very basis of why he supports trade.

Comparative advantage (if I understand it correctly) seems to be effectively the same as mutual advantage, which is the specific basis of cooperation. But the significance of Axelrod's work is not that he presented "cooperation out of self-interest as something new", but that he presented it in a new way (out of game theory and using computer simulation), and showed some new aspects. In particular he showed some of the caveats and characteristics of cooperation that are either new, or seem to have been overlooked or even dismissed in our culture's current Darwinistic - even Malthusian - laissez faire individualism. His significance is shown by the many studies (of which only a sample are cited in the article) which draw on his work; Smith (and even Kropotkin) have had no where near the influence like Axelrod's. He is not without critics (see Binmore's review, cited in the article), but I do not see how it is impartial, biased, or non-neutral to state what is well documented: Axelrod's work is significant. J. Johnson (talk) 21:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Comparative advantage – the fact that individuals' abilities do not all vary in the same proportion (that is, if I'm twice as good a typist as you, it doesn't imply that I'm twice as good a cook) – is the basis of division of labor, a specific kind of cooperation, not closely related to cooperation in Axelrod's sense. (There is no specialization between the players in the Prisoners' Dilemma!) Axelrod uses the words cooperation and defection in a rather special way; their ordinary senses are not opposites. Comparative advantage is why the butcher is in commerce at all rather than feeding only himself; Axelrod explains (though of course he's not the first to discuss it) why it's in the butcher's interest to refrain from cheating or poisoning the customers. —Tamfang (talk) 16:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Not quite. What comparative advantage really means is that in the context of division of labor it can make sense that someone does something he's actually worse at than someone else. Think of an old hunter who due to his age has become very poor at hunting but is still fairly good at mending bows and making arrows. It makes sense that the younger hunters specialize completely on hunting and let him do all the bow-mending and arrow-making in exchange for meat, even though they'd be faster at it, they'll still hunt more this way. So, basically, even if someone is not very good at anything, there's still a place for him in a division of labor system, contrary to the supposed "Social Darwinist" approach, and the narrative of the article. And if Axelrod uses the words cooperation and defection in a very special way, then this should be explained in the article, the cooperation Wikipedia article to which the word is linked in its first instance does not indicate any such special use.—Graf Bobby (talk) 16:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I can see a difference. Comparative advantage seems to be the basis on which two parties might find a mutual advantage; it might be useful to elaborate on this. Also, I don't recall off-hand that Axelrod explicitly and formally defined cooperation and defection, but this could be a lack that ought to be remedied. J. Johnson (talk) 21:14, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the context of comparative advantage is that the cooperative aspect is mediated directly: you've got some meat, I've got this nifty arrow, the exchange is made, and the episode is complete. On the other hand, the context of the Prisoner's Dilemma is that there is no assured quid pro quo, there is no guarrantee that if I cooperate (hand over my arrow) that you will also cooperate. So there is an element of trust, and thus the prospect of getting suckered. Or: you may think you got an arrow's worth of meat, but how do you know, on any given trade, that it isn't tainted? You don't. And if you are a just a passing tourist, you might be better off going hungry. (I assume a lack of coercive government, "moral" sensibiiltes, and other externalities.) But in an extended relationship there is more to be gained in long-term cooperation than "defection". Axelrod addresses this explicitly, Smith didn't. J. Johnson (talk) 23:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

My 2 cents

User:J. Johnson asked me to have a look at this article. My main comment is that it reads too much like an essay rather than an encyclopedia article. I may try to weigh in with some edits - not sure - but I will start with one point here: the article should more clearly and explicitly sort out (1) the aspects of this that have to do with biological evolution from (2) those that apply evolution metaphorically to human existence, and from (3) those that are simply about cooperation (or non-cooperation) in human society and have only a tangential connection to the question of how such cooperation (or non-cooperation) evolved. - Jmabel | Talk 21:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, there are a number of respects which probably should be clearer, and even explicit. I have been concerned that too much explanation and explicitness could come across as talking down to the reader. Will have to ponder on this a while. J. Johnson (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no "talking down" in being clear about who thinks what, whether something is the mainstream view or a somewhat marginal opinion, and in separating the literal subject of the article from its metaphorical use. - Jmabel | Talk 17:32, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

For sure. And that is my goal. But I have to proceed with care, as oftimes I miss. J. Johnson (talk) 23:26, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

"Nature, red in tooth and claw"

"Nature, red in tooth and claw" is Tennyson, not Darwin. "Survival of the fittest" is Herbert Spencer. I'm not sure about "struggle for existence" but suspect it predates them all. To read the wording currently in this article, one could think they are all Darwin. - Jmabel | Talk

These terms are Darwinian in the sense they have become closely associated with his theory, but are adopted. I suppose the sources could be put into notes. I may do that when I replace those naked hyphens with spaced en-dashes. J. Johnson (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The terms are now wiki-linked. - J. Johnson (talk) 00:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Orchids

Shouldn't Darwin's work on what we would today call the coevolution of orchids and insects be mentioned here? It is true that he emphasized the "deception" involved in the process, but the result of the process is mutually beneficial. It doesn't seem that we should specifically expect that cooperation evolves only out of benevolence. - Jmabel | Talk 06:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

(Orchids? We don't need no steenkin' orchids! :-) There is a LOT of material that could be mentioned; part of the challenge doing proper editing is cutting out everything not essential. Darwin's attempt to explain cooperation and even altruism is significant mainly for being not fully successful. As so, I reckon it less important than explanations that are successful. If deeper exploration of some of the issues and implications is useful, I would take examples from Trivers, and even Hamilton.

I don't follow you re expecting cooperation to evolve out of benevolence. To the extent that acting out of "benevolence" (goodness towards others) implies altruism, well, that is the core question here: how does cooperation (altruism) evolve? And the expectation (following the principle of natural selection) is that it will not arise out of pure goodness. Therefore we seek other explanations, which is what the article is all about. - J. Johnson (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, exactly. But as far as I know, Darwin's work on orchids is generally considered the most prominent in which he shows one species in ways that benefit another, and the probably the most prominent in which he takes up the issue of other species constituting a crucial part of the environment in ways other than as competitors for a resource. But I'm no expert. Is there a better example? - Jmabel | Talk 00:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The criterion I would apply to whether Darwin's work on orchids should be mentioned here is: is it necessary to (or materially assist) in the development of the this topic? From other sources I gather it is deemed a powerful argument on the power of natural selection, but that is not the issue here. And however much his work may actually support cooperation, the received interpretation of his work is that evolution is primarily competitive. I think the example of the social insects is "better" on several aspects, in being in the first edition of Origin (and thus better known), specifically addressing altruism, anticipating "group selection" (as I mentioned in the article), and being a fair representation of the view that he did not adequately explain altruism and cooperation. - J. Johnson (talk) 00:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

capitalism and cooperation

Above it was said that capitalism is only mentioned once; well now it's mentioned twice, albeit close together:

... the cutthroat competitiveness of laissez-faire capitalism ...

Such views of evolution, competition, and the survival of the fittest are explicit in the ethos of modern capitalism, ....

Such language ought to be balanced with at least a token mention that commerce is a form of cooperation. The competitive element gets more headlines, and probably appeals to some participants as sublimated war; but the competition is (at least partly; in an ideal world, entirely) in who can better cooperate with the customers, and the prize is opportunities to do so.

That would also help a broader flaw in the article: It needs better concrete examples of cooperation.

• The scenario of the prisoners is contrived, and if the prisoners cooperate it's a bad thing for everyone else (unless we assume that they're accused of something that only an unjust regime would punish).
• The next paragraph lists several examples of preserving a commons, and raises the question of why they're not exploited to destruction — which Axelrod's book, which is mostly about pairwise interactions, does not address! (So far as I can remember, having read it circa 1992.) If one player defects (over-uses the commons) and another doesn't, how can a third player punish one and reward the other by choosing whether or not to defect against the commons?

(I don't know (yet) where I'd insert other examples, or what form they'd take; I need to read the article more carefully with that in mind, when I'm more energetic.) —Tamfang (talk) 04:54, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

For sure, there are better scenarios, but this is the one by which the dilemna was first illustrated, and why it is called the Prisoners' Dilemna. Having to explain that would offset the slight benefit of using an otherwise "better" example.

Preserving a commons is but one of many questions that Axelrod (and Hamilton) did not address. But he wasn't trying to address the benefits of cooperation, just a very narrow question (and in a very simplified context) of how cooperation (reciprocal altruism) might develop (evolve). Note that Axelrod did not argue that cooperation is always beneficial (nor would I), he was mainly elucidating the conditions needed for cooperation. In that regard he provided tools for anaylzing why a commons can be a tragedy (which I think has been done), and suggests what might work (or not) in mitigation. But that, I think, would be more appropriate to The Tragedy of the Commons article than to how cooperation evolves.

I don't think the article needs better examples (the examples of the cleaner fish and the fig wasp are the classic examples), but perhaps they need better explanation? In the original, pre-Wikipedia version I was putting supplemental material in side boxes, but WP doesn't like that. And putting it in the main flow seemed too unwieldy, so I left much of that out. Perhaps I presumed too greatly that the reader would understand the reference?

As to "balance": what is unbalanced? There seems to be a hyper-sensitivity to any mention of capitalism, competition, or Ayn Rand that carries any possible hint they might be less benign than Motherhood and Apple Pie. For all that an enlightened capitalist might, as you suggest, see the relationship with customers as "a mutual, joint-stock world, in all meridians", in fact many "capitalists" are not that enlightened. The "market" is a resource (commons?) in which they compete with other suppliers; cooperation is often a matter of price-fixing (which Axelrod does mention). That capitalism has not been as cuddly as a kitten is, I suspect, because there has been an entirely unbalanced emphasis on competition (derived from Malthus and Darwin) rather than cooperation (Kropotkin). To simply observe this is somehow unfair? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:36, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not objecting to mentioning the Prisoner's Dilemma; nor do I mean to suggest that the article ought to discuss why cooperation can be a good thing (this isn't Sesame Street). I'm saying it would be good to give at least one example of pairwise interaction in which cooperation is unambiguously a good thing all around, rather than letting the PD be the only example of pairwise cooperation.

"At least one example"? Presumably you meant another. And perhaps you are thinking that readers need something more directly relatable to their personal experience? I'm not certain what you have in mind here. Keep in mind what I said above, that I wanted to add some supplementary material but felt it impaired the narrative flow, and WP doesn't like sideboxes. Do you have any particular suggestions?

I meant "another" in the sense of "more than zero". (Note that I specified pairwise interactions, not commons.) How about live and let live (World War I)? At least in that story it's hard to argue that anyone is actively harmed if the cooperators get away with it. —Tamfang (talk) 04:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, there's a problem. Do you not see that the PD is "pair-wise"? It's two prisoners, one pair, interacting. As I have said before, the PD/IPD is the archetypal example. Perhaps not the best possible story, but it's lean and clean. As to demonstrating examples of cooperation, yes, a lot of people like the "live and let live" story, but the elements that give it such human interest make it not so useful from an analytical viewpoint. If we had side-bars I'd put it in as supplementary material. But it would clog the main narrative. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

My desire is that the article should contain at least one example (i.e., more than zero examples) where interaction is pairwise and where cooperation is clearly good. I know I have a gift for making myself misunderstood, but this time I thought I was clear. (And how many times have I said that?) This desire is not satisfied by commons examples nor by pairwise examples where cooperation is arguably bad. Sorry to harp on this but someone keeps on misunderstanding. —Tamfang (talk) 06:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that the cleaner fish and the fig wasp "are the classic examples" of something, but they're not examples of the kind of interaction described in The Evolution of Cooperation.

I don't understand what kind of interaction you think Axelrod described. I would say that cleaner fish and fig wasps illustrate exactly the kind of interaction he described. Albeit he only mentions the latter in the book, both are explained (briefly) in his and Hamilton's article. In both cases there is a question of why the cleaned fish does not snap up a "free" lunch, or the fig wasp lay a few more eggs. In a single instance (the PD) there is no particular reason not to. But in the Iterated PD it can be seen that the long-term benefit of getting cleaned in the future can be greater than maximizing today's free lunch.

Hm. My books are in boxes at the moment, so I can't look it up. Does Axelrod address the problem of how to distinguish a cheater (a shark that eats the cleaner / a wasp that lays too many eggs) from a cooperator, so as to punish one and reward the other? —Tamfang (talk) 04:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Dealing with cheating goes to the heart of the matter. As I said before, Axelrod mentions the example in the book, but doesn't explain it. In the article he explains: if a wasp "cheats", the tree cuts of the fig at an early stage and ALL of that wasp's progeny are lost. (And perhaps I need to explain that in this article?) You should read Axelrod's article. I have yet to find it availalbe for free on the Internet, but if you send me an e-mail I can send you a copy. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The present language does more than "simply observe" that capitalism has competitive elements: it practically defines it as sublimated violence. There seems to be a hypersensitive hostility to any mention of the cooperative nature of commerce, heh. Your last sentence is interesting, in suggesting a self-fulfilling prophecy, viz rhetorical overemphasis on competition makes capitalism less cooperative; did you mean that?

Just where do you get this idea that this article "practically defines [capitalism] as sublimated violence"? In the first place (listen up!) there is ABSOLUTELY NO DEFINITION OF CAPITALISM here. (Got that?) I am trying to describe how the issue of cooperation, and its evolution, is relevant to a larger issue of individual interests versus group interests, and particularly with the views commonly described as Social Darwinism. That "survival of the fittest", "struggle for existence", and "red in tooth and claw" seem violent – well, what can I say? Those are the terms used by Darwin's "bulldogs" (another term sublimely violent). That these Malthusian and Darwinian concepts, and even the very terms, are explicitly adopted by "capitalists" themselves (e.g., Carnegie, as cited), well, that is how matters stand. Note that I am not even trying to characterize "capitalism", I was just pointing out where this issue of individual versus group arises. For sure, "competition" could be recast in a more cooperative manner – which is just what the evolution of cooperation suggests should be done. But that, in your own words, "the competitive element gets more headlines" is a fact which the article observes. Quite neutrally, too, because there is nothing said against capitalism, competitiveness (laissez-faire or other), or the views of Malthus, Darwin, or Carnegie. As near as I can figure you are either in denial that "capitalism" embraces Malthus and competitiveness, or you are faulting me for not making obesiance to Glorious Free Market Capitalism. (I don't believe I have said anything against capitalism, which makes me think you want something said for it.) This gets back to the prior assertion that the article was "unbalanced", but when we try to look at it closer it devolves into perception and subjective judgements, and I don't know how to resolve that.

In your comments you do a good job of distinguishing between the rhetoric of one Malthusian capitalist (and their ideological detractors) and the nature of commerce. I'd be pleased if the article did so too.

(I suspect this tooth-and-claw stuff is/was how the captains of industry consoled themselves for not being captains of war, the only occupation worthy of a truly virile man.)

It ought to be easy to find economists and others who argue for laisser-faire policy without praising sublimated violence. For example, the first major success of the free-trade movement (about 13 years before Darwin published) was brought on in part by sympathy with the victims of the Irish potato famine.

Imagine that I insert in some article a passing mention of the greed of Jewish bankers, citing the existence of a banker (floruit 1889) who was undisputedly greedy and Jewish, and remarking that the article in question is not about banking or Judaism. Are you satisfied? —Tamfang (talk) 04:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Why do we need to find anyone to "argue for laisser-faire policy"? It is NOT ABOUT laissez-faire policy. So why do I even mention it? Because the argument for laissez-faire is based on this broader issue of so-called dog-eat-dog natural selection of the fit. There is a popular view that life is every man for himself, self-interest is the rule, and altuism and benevolence be damned. The evolution of cooperation is not against pursuing self-interest (it POSTULATES self-interest). What it does is show how cooperation (reciprocal altruism) IS (or rather, can be) in the individual's self-interest, and is therefore evolutionarily advantageous. (Which to mind actually removes an objection to laissez-faire competition.) Why this is not an obscure technical issue of interest to only a small number of specialists (as I said in the article!!) is because it is relevant to these broader issues. Just because those issues are mentioned is NOT to take an issue on them, and certainly not to define them.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the article needs to cite l-f economists of any subtype; I said that to contradict the (implied?) claim that all capitalists and l-f advocates agree that what makes l-f good is that it fosters competition (as opposed to cooperation).

Why have you changed the subject from "cutthroat competitiveness" to "self-interest"? —Tamfang (talk) 06:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Your position reminds me of story I read in today's newspaper about a book (Vamamos a Cuba) that some folks want removed from libraries because it has pictures of school children in Cuba smiling. And in their minds this is unbalanced without an instant rejoinder how terrible life in Cuba. (I hope you're not a right-wing nut that doesn't see what's wrong with this.)

You seem to think that saying "capitalism" without all sorts of adulation of how warm and fuzzy it is (is it??) is completely pejorative. That's I call hypersensitive. As to your example, that you have alluded to this view of "greedy Jews", do we now need to make a balancing statement about how warm, friendly, and sharing many Jews are? I hope not. But it really depends on the context. I don't think the article is "unbalanced", and I have yet to see you (or anyone else) make any showing that it is. On one hand, you assert that I have made assertions and definitions, but you can't point to them. (Because they aren't there?) On the other hand you complain that I have, what, left off the "balancing" adulations? Like the earliar discussion about Rand: having cited her to show that there exists a certain view of certain prominence, must there then be a complete exegesis of her views lest someone get an "unbalanced" view of her? That's absurd. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you really see no difference between "I object to specific negative things said about capitalism (but can tolerate them, even though I consider them false and harmful, if they're balanced with something more accurate)" and "I object to mentioning capitalism at all without hearts and flowers"?

The article does more than allude to a "view" about the nature of capitalism; it says that that view is accurate. —Tamfang (talk) 06:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

This is heart of the issue here. I claim the article alludes to certain issues or views (which are associated with "capitalism") without taking any position or making any moral assertion, and you claim that the article says (asserts?) that some such views are are accurate – and also somehow so demeaning or unfair that they require "balance". Well, I am a bit distracted at present and don't have the time to carefully comb through all of the forgoing discussion, but it seems to me that when I have tried to trace the issue down to specifics we end up with – nothinng. Maybe we need to start all over again from the top (e.g., point to the specific statements you deem so wildly inaccurate), but don't start off on that quite yet because I don't know if I have the time for it. And because I think we would just be repeating all of the above. - 24.18.228.202 (talk) 01:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

As to "hypersensitive hostility to any mention of the cooperative nature of commerce" – look, this article, and the subject it covers, is NOT ABOUT COMMERCE. What part of that do you not understand? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Why it makes those assertions about the nature of capitalism, then. :P —Tamfang (talk) 04:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Not so fast there, fella. Pay attention. You were claiming a "a hypersensitive hostility to any mention of the cooperative nature of commerce" (emphasis added). What assertions does the article make about commerce? It does not. As to capitalism, there are, what, two mentions of capitalism? (Which you have conveniently quoted at the top of this section.) The second is an assertion ("such views are ... are explicit in the ethos of modern capitalism"), but is in NO WAY a definition, nor even a characterization, and is completely neutral as to whether said views or good or bad or whatever. The first might be taken as a characterization, but as such it is both true, and such a minor aspect (or not?) of capitalism itself that I am amazed how much you make of it. Don't twist your underwear into knots just becase a kid smiled. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Did you really not recognize my crack about "hypersensitive hostility" to my suggestion as a parody of your own snide imputation of hypersensitivity?

The notion of the cutthroat competitiveness of laissez-faire capitalism is a falsehood (even if some capitalists believe[d] fondly in it) that drives a lot of bad policy. That you consider it an unimportant truth explains your attitude but does not excuse the falsehood. —Tamfang (talk) 06:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Damn it, will you pay attention? In the first place, no, I do not "recognize" that your alleged parody as relevant or in anyway useful to this discussion. You made a statement – which I take as a serious comment, and if you meant it to be an amusing aside then perhaps you should say so, and retract it as a serious criticism. As it stands, you said that there "seems to be a hypersensitive hostility" re commerce. Now I will allow that I am starting to feel hostile towards you (because, as I have explained before, it seems to me you are being hypersensitive, and even pushing a POV), but it seems to me that your claim stems entirely from the mention of "cutthroat competitiveness" in the same sentence with "capitalism". Now whether competition is necessarily "cutthroat", or even whether "capitalism" is necessarily competitive, ARE NOT ASSERTED. I make no such claims. And I most CERTAINLY DO NO MAKE ANY DEFINITIONS. That others do, well, that is part of the "bigger issue" that the article alludes to. The reason I made that allusion is because in that grander issue there are elements of individualism versus cooperation, and the topic of this article seems relevant to that issue. That you claim the article "practically defines [capitalism] as sublimated violence" when it makes NO DEFINITIONS, does not mention violence, or for that matter even commerce, well, that is what YOU have read into it. And on those grounds I suggest that you are the one being hypersensitive. - 24.18.228.202 (talk) 01:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Price-fixing is a commons; how about mentioning that along with the other commons examples?

Part of Axelrod's (and Adam Smith's) point is that cooperation doesn't require the participants to be benevolent, you know. —Tamfang (talk) 21:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, gee, that isn't that the essence of the article? That all those cooperating prisoners, wasps, fish, collusive business tycoons, mycorrhizal fungi, and computer algorithms are NOT doing it out of benevolent brotherly love, nor threats of hell-fire, coercive government, or genetic heritage. They do it because – given certain conditions – there is an actual, individual, self-interested benefit in doing so. Do I need to explicitly state that benevolence doesn't come into it? (In caps, and bolded?) I mean that I credit you (lacking any evidence to the contrary) with at least average reading ability (no??). So if you missed that cooperation (as used in this context) is exclusively based on rational self-interest, then perhaps my writing has seriously failed to communicate. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

In the cases of the fish etc, I'm pretty sure that genetic heritage is involved somehow. —Tamfang (talk) 04:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

No, genetic heritage is not involved. (See Trivers.) Getting back to my question: why is it you did not pick up that benevolence has nothing to do with it, that "cooperation" (as used here) is entirely about self-interest? Did you not read anything beyond the mere mention of "capitalism"? Are you simply doing Google searches for "capitalism", and haven't even read the article? Are you some kind of conservative think-tank cowboy making Wikipedia safe for capitalism? Or is there some flaw in the article? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Really? The fish's behavior is not governed by its genes? Fish that cooperate have no selective advantage?

I'll try to ignore the smear about my motives, and any further attempts to persuade me that I'm arguing about something orthogonal to my complaint. I may not always succeed in resisting the bait. —Tamfang (talk) 06:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

As I just said: see Trivers (citation in the article). Cooperation does not arise out of benevolence. Rather, the impetus towards benevolence survives because cooperation can be (caveats!) inherently advantageous. And that was a straightforward question: has my writing failed to communicate that?

By the way, I am rather tight for time at present, so I may not be able to respond immediately. - (JJ) 24.18.228.202 (talk) 01:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)