Talk:Deathrock

/Archive 1

Beavis

Is it notable to mention that in Beavis & Butthead, Beavis would occasionally wear a "Death Rock" shirt? 72.188.19.104 (talk) 06:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd say no. I doubt Mike Judge knew/knows the difference between Death Rock and death metal. Beavis and Butthead frequently made fun of any Gothic or Death Rock video that was played on the show.Very Old School Goth (talk) 12:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Not punk

Death rock isn't a fusion of punk & goth. It is an alternative label for Goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 12:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

An alternative label for Goth? Have you any idea what you're talking about? Very Old School Goth (talk) 20:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

not goth

Death rock is not goth in any way .It is a sub genre of punk plian simple it's not any kind of goth .

Some dumbasses who did not know the difference started using them interchangeably way back wen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.118.200.168 (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Death Rock isn't a genre. It's an umbrella term used for American Post-Punk groups which deal with horror and death themes. So listen to 45 Grave. It's a completely other music than Christian Death or Kommunity FK. Furthermore, bands like Screams for Tina, Voodoo Church, Mephisto Walz and others were influenced by the British Goth movement. The Gothrock movement started in 1979 in Great Britain. Bands such as Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees toured in San Francisco, New York and other towns in 1980/1981. They're very popular.

But original Death rock bands released their first albums between 1982 and 1983. The Death Rock movement started three years later and is strongly influenced by the British Goth movement. Like it or not, that's a fact. --Ada Kataki (talk) 00:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

What is it?

If its not goth and not punk WHAT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!75.7.12.99 (talk) 22:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Bullocks. Deathrock is one part Punk, one part Goth. The end. Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 14:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

- VOSG nailed it on the head. I also recommend putting in the introduction the following sentence: "Deathrock is not to be confused with death metal, the latter being a completely unrelated genre of metal." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.221.31 (talk) 06:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Read Gitane Demone's interviews. She says that Death Rock is a vague mixture between US Hardcore Punk, Gothic Rock, Glam Rock, Hard Rock and Heavy Metal. And she's right. Read also interviews of 45 Grave. They're fans of Black Sabbath. Other influences are Velvet Underground, Stooges and Alice Cooper.

Goths and Death Rock fans of today are a little bit stupid. They think that Goth is a genre without any influence. But since the beginning Goth and Death Rock were influenced by Psychedelic Rock, Punk, Reggae, Blues and Hard Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.28.99 (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Gitane Demone, like Valor, are to be taken with a grain of salt. They're metallers who think they have a firm grasp on the meaning of the word "Gothic". And, being a metaller, you're pretty much immediately disqualified from being in any way Goth. Also, being a fan of Black Sabbath doesn't make your Goth band metal. I'm a fan of The Specials, that doesn't make my Goth band somehow Ska, does it? "Goth and Death Rock were influenced by Psychedelic Rock"? Bullocks. Punk and Goth were the anti-hippie and the anti-disco, respectively, no matter what wikipedia says. Goth came from Punk. The end. Any band that claims to be Goth and is inspired by "hard rock" is full of excrement and doesn't know their arse from a hole in the ground. And reggae? Put down the ganja, mate! Very Old School Goth (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Punk was anti-Hippie, not Post-Punk. And Goth had a strong disco influence. Furthermore Bauhaus was influenced by Reggae, Sisters were influenced by Psychedelic Rock, Cocteau Twins were influenced by Psychedelic Rock, the complete goddamned Goth movement was a part of the 80s Neopsychedelia. Fields of the Nephilim, The Wake, Sisters etc. showed a strong Hard Rock influence. So what? Truth hurts... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.26.55 (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"Punk was anti-Hippie, not Post-Punk." And that differs from what I said how, exactly?

"Goth had a strong disco influence." Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Goth was the antithesis of disco. That, largely, was the point of the original Goth scene. "Furthermore Bauhaus was influenced by Reggae" Clearly, you're baked. "Telegram Sam" really reminds ME of "I Shot the Sheriff". I-fucking-dentical. "Psychedelic Rock" is music for nasty bong sucking hippies. Which has fuck all to do with Goth. Cocteau Twins are about as Goth as The Ramones were Punk. Which is to say, "not in the least". You people and your "rock" fetish. I swear. Everything has to be (something) "rock". And if you remove the rock element you have to attach some new title to it, don't you? It can't be simply "Gothic music" it has to be "Darkwave", right? Bullocks. If you want to bang your head to hicktard music that's your tough shit. God forbid someone creates a kind of music that takes a degree elegance and sophistication to create and/or enjoy because all the Mansonites and Ozzy-douches come crying out of the wood work about how they had something to do with it's origins.Very Old School Goth (talk) 05:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You're a hopeless guy. An absolute peabrain. I only believe in this what established Goth groups say. To hell with all these narrow-minded pseudo-goth fans. They're not better than these fucking mallgoths. Cocteau Twins wasn't Goth? *lol* Sounds this like Pop music to you? You have no idea of anything. Psychedelic Rock is a main characteristic of Goth. Listen to the music of Mephisto Walz. The most of their songs show a Phrygian mode. The Cure and also The Banshees were infuenced by Pink Floyd. It's all stupid "Hippy music". You'll not find any Goth group without foreign influences.

I'm a guy? LOL ok then! Now who's clueless? And I love how you'll site MY band and then tell ME what Goth is and isn't! Classic! Go back to trolling in the Skinny Puppy chat rooms and telling everyone who will listen that you speak german and maybe you'll impress a mallgoth teenybopper rivethead enough to earn a quick snog thus justifying your meaningless existence, "Breathtaker". Very Old School Goth (talk) 23:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Your shitty band can kiss my ass. You have no idea of history, styles and subcultural coexistences. Maybe you're one of these modern, stinky batcave kiddos, ignoring roots and influences. An absolute shrinkhead. There is nothing more to say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.11.43 (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazing how quickly discussion of music degenerates into name-calling and sanctimonious proclamations. That being said, Very Old School Goth, you're not the only oldtimer here. I have been both performing and writing about this music for over a quarter of a century. Your closemindedness apparently has led you to assume your own musical preferences somehow change facts in the greater musical world beyond your own circle. I could patiently explain where and how many of your assertions are incorrect, but it seems your lack of general music-history knowledge might make it hard to get across to you. Nonetheless I'll tackle a few. The other poster was on the right track in terms of looking at what the actual original bands had to say. Do you never read interviews? Even the most casual fan of the original goth founders---the Banshees, Cure, Bauhaus, Joy Division---pretty much grasps their influences, which are fairly wide ranging, but certainly '70s glam, art-rock, and psychedelia are major elements. Even funk (Bauhaus and JD), and yep, reggae too are all there. You scoff at the guy who mentioned reggae, that just indicates ignorance, or did you never hear David J from Bauhaus explain how "Bela Lugosi's Dead" came from the band's jamming on dub reggae, not to mention the dub reggae bass work on "She's in Parties." Examine the cover songs all of the above bands did, and you'll get a sense of their earlier rock influences. Music is a continuum, not a rigid set of walled-off genre ghettos. As for "Cocteau Twins are about as Goth as The Ramones were Punk. Which is to say, "not in the least"," I am not sure if you were attempting a bizarre joke. There were few records in 1982 that came as close to the quintessential essence of goth music as the first Cocteau Twins album. The second part of your statement is nonsensical, as the Ramones basically invented punk music. That would be like saying, to use your reference of ska, "The Skatalites" are not in the least ska." Or "Louis Armstrong is not in the least jazz." Or "The Sugarhill Gang is not in the least hip-hop." You get the idea (I hope). I suggest everyone calm down and defer the personal attacks, and for those who find all this talk of influences perplexing, do some actual reading and research instead of talking out of personal preferences rather than actual history.Greg Fasolino (talk) 01:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not that amazing, really. Breathtaker is a twat, as anyone who has dealt with him in the past will attest. First of all, I've never claimed to be "open minded". That trait is for people who are not firm in their beliefs and convictions. So, yes, I am very narrow minded. Especially when it comes to music. And anyone who says that Goths are supposed to be open minded has never met one. As for music, influence is meaningless. I've been influenced by Marliyn Manson. Hearing his work has "influenced" me to not make shitty music. Does that mean that crappy shock rock/metal disguised as Goth is one of my influences? Does that mean that pseudo-Goth should go into my bands' desciptions? Also, I enjoy the music of Sloppy Seconds. Does that mean that "Junk Rock" is, somehow, responsible for the music I create? Hardly. All music can be cheapened by saying "that artist has been inspired by all these other genres, so their music genre is nothing but a mishmash of all of the music they've heard before taking up a violin or a guitar". Is Bauhaus Goth or is it merely a collection of all their influences? And if it's the latter then what's the point of calling any music Goth? And if they don't SOUND like reggae then why bother even mentioning it? They sound nothing like reggae so, no, their music is not influenced by reggae. The artists? Maybe. But the music itself? Not even remotely. Yes, I am aware of the popular history of Goth. That doesn't mean that I agree with it. I don't agree that Valor should ever be called Goth. I don't agree that Goth and Industrial should be played on the same club night (as do most DJs, they never played Goth anyway because Sisters and Cure don't qualify) and I don't agree that Goth and rock belong together. I believe that rock is generic and cheapens anything that it touches. I believe that the rock aspect of Goth needs to be flushed and forgotten. I don't believe that Industrial music is any different than listening to a dying rhinoceros with tourettes. I don't believe that EBM has any place in the Goth scene. Ever. Just because something is agreed upon as the factual history of Goth doesn't mean that I have to or will agree. As for the Ramones? Love their music. But Punk? Listen to them. What, exactly, about the music of The Ramones qualifies them as Punk? They're like Blondie. Everyone calls them Punk but I can't think of one single reason that they deserve to thought of as such. Same goes for The Cure or Cocteau Twins being called Goth. What makes them Goth? Do they sound Goth? No? Then stop calling them Goth. They sound like dark pop to me. And, yes, anything related to hippies is rubbish. Up to and including "psychedelic rock". When so many of the old Punks were out in the streets kicking the hell out of the flithy hippies that refused to die out I don't see why Punk's illegitimate child should be pretending thier very existence is copacetic. Because it isn't. Goths- dark elegant Victorian aristocrats. Hippies - colourful filthy vagrants who can't use soap. I'm failing to see the similarities here. Very Old School Goth (talk) 04:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Goths- dark elegant Victorian aristocrats

You're not from this world, sweetie. *lol* Your fantasy world is absolutely irrelevant. Your shitty POV is absolutely irrelevant. There are reliable sources. History, interviews and also genre characteristics. And there is nothing you can do to change the truth. Btw: Greg was the guitarist of The Naked and the Dead. And i absolutely agree with him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.17.125 (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

"There are reliable sources. History, interviews and also genre characteristics."

Anybody know WTF this guy is talking about? Goths- dark elegant Victorian aristocrats sounds spot on to me.76.181.245.252 (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Show me the dark elegant Victorian aristocrats of the 80s and the early 90s. In the heyday of Goth there were no dark elegant Victorian aristocrats. It's all in your mind, kiddo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.17.125 (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Save your breath, ladies and gents, there is absolutely no point in debating with someone who takes prides in ignorance and closemindedness. It's a useless endeavor, you'll only fume. And you are absolutely correct, nobody at all in the original goth or deathrock scenes dressed like elegant Victorian aristocrats, nor had that mindset. That sort of fashion came waaaaaaaaay later. But don't expect VOSG to grasp this, she is in her own world divorced from historical facts. Greg Fasolino (talk) 18:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

"Show me the dark elegant Victorian aristocrats of the 80s and the early 90s." Apparently, you're too dense to realize you're talking to one.

"nobody at all in the original goth or deathrock scenes dressed like elegant Victorian aristocrats, nor had that mindset. That sort of fashion came waaaaaaaaay later." What's it like to live under a rock?

I truly appreciate the delicious irony of being preached to about open mindedness by someone who's unrelentling jackassery has gotten their main account, as well as several sock puppets, indefinitely bannded from editing wikipedia and has now resorted to IP hopping in order to avoid said ban. Bravo.

I realize that most of you concert shirt/black denim wearing weekend warrior Einstürzende Neubauten loving "goths" don't like to admit to being complete and total poseurs. That's fine. Live in denial. But the fact is, no matter how old you are, you're never too old to be a wannabe. And you're living proof. Very Old School Goth (talk) 00:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure who you are directing this too, VOSG, but I've never used a pseudonym, or been banned. My name is Greg Fasolino and I am not afraid to back up my commentary. Never been called a poseur or a wannabe before (wannabe what, exactly, I'm not sure, I've gotten enough accolades for my contributions to the early scene and don't need anymore). Being as though I was a part of the scene in the early '80s, and have been writing about it observantly ever since, I doubt very much I've been living under a rock. Maybe you didn't parse what I said carefully enough. I am talking solely and specifically about the BEGINNING of the goth/deathrock scene, the original scene, the first half of the Eighties. I was around then, I went to the clubs and the shows, I read the zines (and published my own) and interviewed the bands and danced all night to the music. I saved all those things, and also took a lot of photographs. And the fashion then, the ORIGINAL fashion, was nothing to do with Victoriania and elegance. It was about big teased hair and Aqua-net, fishnets, black pointy boots and ballet slippers, leather, mesh shirts, warpaint on cheeks, animal bones and crucifixes, and many other things, but it was more macabre and tribal and punky than elegant, and the "Victorian" thing was nowhere to be found. That did not take hold in goth fashion until the late Eighties or even the Nineties. So go ahead, tell us your real name, and show me a photo of a bunch of goths or deathrockers in the early Eighties, who look Victorian. Show me a photo of Siouxsie, or Andi Sex Gang, or Robert Smith, or Jaz Coleman, or Rozz Williams, or the guys in UK Decay or Specimen or ASF, circa 1980-85, where they are dressed Victorian? Show me a photo at the Batcave in London in 1982-83 where anyone is dressed that way. If you cannot, then maybe stop spewing ignorance.Greg Fasolino (talk) 05:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

VOSG can never be a Goth from the 80s. IMO it's a latecomer and an ignorant bigmouth from the late 90s. In the 80s it was a heterogenic Post-Punk and Post-Industrial scene. People listened to different stuff, including Gary Numan, John Foxx, DAF, Neubauten, Neon Judgement, Nitzer Ebb and Skinny Puppy. Most of these groups and solo-artists were Post-Punks with synthesizers and an avantgardistic background, nothing more. But people like VOSG can't see the connections between the genres and subcultures and their roots in Post-Punk music. Absolute shrinkheads. And no, i'm not Greg, dear VOSG. How you can see, my English is crappy like hell, because i'm not a native English speaker.