Talk:MS-13

A little clean-up

I deleted this line "any one who uses the phrase mierda seca ( meaning dry shit in spanich ) which is a common way to insult ms 13 members", as sworn enemies.. I hope it's obvious as to why I did, but beyond lacking citations of sources, it's not very convincing.

False rumored ties with Al-Qaeda

There's no evidence that the ties with Al-Qaeda are a rumor. Show an article or some kind of reference. I deleted the "rumor" until somone wnat to come up with something to show it is, indeed, just a rumor. On that note, here's one of many articles that say they ARE involved with each other Acually I intially heard that it was false on Fox news. And have since heard and read it several times. Im going to find more articles outlining that it is purely sensational reporting influenced by an administration that lives day and night to create a climate of fear. However heres one that while certainly not pro ms 13 demonstrates that at the very least it is unproven. Its from the U.S.A. Today,,,,,,,,,, Ill documentmore later................ U.S. steps up battle against Salvadoran gang MS-13 By Danna Harman, USA TODAY SAN SALVADOR — A street gang based in El Salvador has rapidly spread in the USA and raised enough concern for the Justice Department to create a new task force to battle it. But the head of the task force says the gang has no al-Qaeda connections, despite a suggestion Monday by El Salvador's president that there may be a link.

Juan Carlos Miralda Bueso, 29, left, a former member of the MS-13 gang peers from his high security cell in Honduras. By Ginnette Riquelme, AP

"The FBI, in concert with the U.S. intelligence community and governments of several Central American republics, have determined that there is no basis in fact to support this allegation of al-Qaeda or even radical Islamic ties to MS-13 (Mara Salvatrucha)," says Robert Clifford, director of the new task force. Clifford is in El Salvador this week to discuss cooperation with his Central American counterparts.

The Real Mara

PART 1:Theres alot of comments above that are correct and alot that are incorrect, some people claiming to be from LA are as incorrect as you can get and not just about the Mara but about the surenos. About this whole article, i dont claim to know it all but i do believe that i know more than most of the people on here. As far as my background I am a central american that moved to LA in the early 80s and joined a mexican gang in the 90s. one of the people i agree with the most in this whole discussion is jesusfreak, i was going to add what his comment was but was happy to see he had already said it, no one victimized anyone and how did 18 victimize them and then miraculously half of their own members are salvadoran too. salvadorans are in almost every gang in LA, and surprisingly most of the gangs that dont get along with mara have alot of salvadorans in them too. the true story of the mara is very long and very twisted and hard to follow even for me that basically heard all the angles over a period of about 15 years from all kinds of sources. the problem is you would almost have to describe the whole history of latino gangs in LA to really understand. i can sum it down or dumb it down for this comment but dont take the way i describe it as a stand alone description. here it goes,,, the mara salvatrucha is a mexican barrio named in the salvadoran style, but it is strictly a barrio, in my opinion even the ones in el salvador are a mexican barrio, theres almost no way to get away from that, and thats what ive told members from mara in DC and virginia which i have met. they dress like mexicans, talk like mexicans, and operate in the barrio style, but to really get down to the core you could say they are California chicano. i know because i know how the maras in el salvador and guatemala used to be, and MS is very far from that. the word mara is an old slang term for gang, which itself evolved, and for the ignorant people out there that still dont understand that think about how the word "gang" has evolved, the show "my gang," phrases like me and the gang, it just means a group of friends or coworkers or peers in some way, like crews of workers are referred to as gangs and always have been, now the word gang mainly means criminal organization, "mara" is similar but of course not always 100%, some things are lost or changed or reversed in the translation. when they came to LA they just wanted something to be really salvadoran sounding so they named it mara, then the "salva" is for salvadoran, thats easy. the "trucha" part to me is the one which is really open for interpretation, not "mara". in LA chicano slang trucha means being alert, trucha is also the literal spanish word for the fish known as trout. maybe the slang word came from connecting the slick fast slippery fish to like a human quality of being alert or slick. in spanish like in english those could be good or bad traits depending on what your morals or ethics are. obviously for the gang its a good thing. combine them together and bam, you got your brand name. ill go further than jesus freak and say that not only the mara wasnt being victimized by the mexican gangs, they where actually being nurtured and tutored, which is why in my opinion the mara is a straight up mexican barrio. i think people outside of the criminal world place too much emphasis on race or nationality when it comes to gang wars. if you think about it most mexican gangs go to war with other mexican gangs. it doesnt hurt when the enemy gang is from a different race or nationality but it doesnt necesarily matter, not always. for example if theres two mexican gangs and two philipino gangs, or salvadoran gangs, the odds are that one mexican gang will align with one philipino gang and the two left will align with each other. either way MS is aligned with the surenos or else they wouldnt use the 13, because that is the only meaning for 13, originally it might have been for the 13th letter which is M but that stopped being true before mara even got started, because the M is not for the M in mara, and im going to drop a shocker but its not even for the M in Mexican Mafia, 13 is the original logo of the Maravilla gang, an East LA powerhouse.

The Real Mara

PART 2:officially though it is the M of mexican mafia which the 13 is used for now, the Maravilla basically blessed the mafia, which shows you that this gangs influence goes back a lil further than MS. so after all thats said and done we can go back to the history of MS, they may have become an official gang in the early 80s but i think it was something that started developing in the late 70s. so we have to all put the mara in the context of their time. its not something that started last year or 5 years ago just beacause thats when the media coverage picked up on it. thats why i always like to categorize gang history as pre-"colors" and post-"colors". as in "colors" the movie with sean penn and duval, that movie changed the whole trajectory of gang culture in LA and eventually the world. so the few gangs that go back before that movie was released are in a special category. they where active before gangbanging was popular. that makes them a little more motivated i think. so mara was around before colors, i mean if people dont know what mara means today in 2008, imagine the macarthur park or pico union westlake district of LA in the early 80s, well now that im really getting into this post im starting to realize that maybe just reading a post or two or even the whole entire webcoverage on the mara wont do people too much good if they dont even know little stupid things that maybe someone from the barrio knows by heart. if 99% of the webcoverage is incorrect, and 1% is, how would the average joe know what to believe and what not to. and i guess when you get down to it, if your not in law enforcement why would it really matter, i mean all the symantics involved. it just makes me cringe when i see whats on the web or on the documentaries ive seen over the years. it almost seems like the media grabbed hold of it and created something all on its own. like reading world news or the inquirer. i know because now i live in texas and sometimes i hear people talking about the mara like they are experts or maybe even claiming to be members or know members and they are just so far off that its funny. if people could just get the idea that the mara started to protect them against mexicans out of their head i will be happy. thats a start. next just understand that theres an order to gang names, like the same way scientists classify species, ws mara salvatrucha 13 lgs hls pls, its all there if you know what your looking at, theres a side, a gang name, a prison affiliation, and a klik. in california latino gangs are either 13 or 14,in chicago they are folks or peoples, other regions have other systems of id, california blacks are bloods and crips, then in midwest states you get unholy unions that claim to be kansas city sureno folk crip riders and all kinds of stuff. what throws people off about mara is that since they label it as a salvadoran gang they try to separate it from its actual structure, or some may not know either way even if it had been a mexican gang, starting with some law enforcement. the media just shows up and watches for 5 seconds and forms its own opinion based on that and now feels confident they know the entire history of the mara and all the factors that contributed to it, then they may fill 45 minutes with recycled footage thats shot in various central american locations. the good ones may show the LA neighborhood, but its rare, and they still manage to misinform. what gets me is that when the documentary is on the mara they show the footage from el salvador and they always manage to show footage of 18st inadvertantly, or when its about 18st they manage to show a dude from mara in some of the clips. if they cant even get pictures with body tattos basically spelling out the guys gang right, what can you expect about the stuff that requires actual investigation.

Targeting of Minutemen

Footnote 25 (regarding the alleged targeting of the Minutemen border patrols) leads to a Washington Times article that only contains 1 source who also happens to be the leader of the Minutemen. This article is self-promotion and contains no corroboration at all, unlike footnote 26 (relating to the actual US border patrol) which has several sources. This reference should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlhoganjr (talk • contribs) 18:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Brenda Paz

In tried to make a page on Brenda Paz, but this redirects already to this Mara Salvatrucha page. Can someone change this?

The book by Samuel Logan "This is for the Mara Salvatrucha" (2009) follows her tragic story. She became a member of the gang at age fifteen, witnessed and helped to commit many crimes, and was arrested at sixteen in connection with a robbery. Eager to escape the brutality, she began sharing information with the authorities. Her inside accounts of the most violent acts, private traditions, and secret symbols turned out invaluable to law enforcement officials. Despite being in the FBI's Witness Protection Program, Brenda was found dead within a year.

While other reporters have focused on the horrifying circumstances of Brenda's murder - she was 17, pregnant, and killed by her boyfriend. Logan interviewed key players in her last years of life, including her family, MS-13 members, the law enforcement officers and her lawyers, and the families of the victims of the gang's violence.

Thanx --JanDeFietser (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Next time, when it redirects, click the name of the page you wanted and then edit out the redirect. --Anrkist (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

In Toronto 17 alleged members where charged with affiliations to this violent transnational hispanic street gang. Charges ranged from car theft to conspiracy to committ murder. Charged were: Jorge Salas 29, Luis Salas-Reyes 32, Carlos Platero 18, Hector Sanhueza 32, Ronald Moratay-Cruz 27, Manuel Pasos 19, Eddy Trujillo 32, Douglas Moreira 27, Rosa Martinez-Cabrera 23, Jason Jefferey 25, Evan Rodgers 25, Leita Knights 20, Jose Delgado Garcia 46, Syed Tariq 43, George Minchala 27, Michael Rosenbaun 27 and Danny Ruiz 24 all of Toronto. These arrests stem from a two year investigation into the Toronto chapter of MS-13. Toronto police acknowledge that this gang in particular is very serious and the threat needs to be dealt with immediately. Police say some MS-13 members have come into the country as refugees from Central America . They estimate there are about 50,000 worldwide and about 200 in Toronto .

links to verify

Reverting back to 1 March version

I reverted back to the 1 March version, giving edit summary "rv to 1 March - unsourced changes, unexplained deletions, addition of a poor Google translation to lead" to undo some edits that harmed the article. Most of the harm happened with this edit.

• unsourced changes - membership went from 15,000 in the United States to 50,000.
• unexplained deletions - including removing the long paragraph starting "Their activities have caught the eye of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)..." and the description of how the hand sign is formed. If there's a reason to remove material, it should be given in the edit summary or on the talk page.
• addition of a poor Google translation to lead - Google Translate is far from perfect and generally needs to be touched up before the results are used in an article. The translation

The excessive cruelty to the distinguished members of the "Maras" or "Mareros", earned them a path to be recruited by the criminal organization of Sinaloa, Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, to be trained in handling weapons and counter the force from the Gulf Organization (Los Zetas), a war that rages south of the United States Border.[1]

needs touching up. Either way it doesn't belong in the lead as a replacement for the removed FBI paragraph.

It's better to make changes a little at a time and use an edit summary so other editors can understand their intention. --CliffC (talk) 23:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

If the revert war continues I'll protect the page.   Will Beback  talk  03:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Jesterly82, 8 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} The origins of Mara Salvatrucha is incorrect. I believe the opening sentence

"Mara Salvatrucha (commonly abbreviated as MS, Mara, and MS-13) is a criminal gang that originated in Los Angeles"

should be changed to reflect the proper origin of the gang and be rewritten as

"Mara Salvatrucha (commonly abbreviated as MS, Mara, and MS-13) is a criminal gang that originated in El Salvador" Sources: http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/profiles/ms13/ http://womenofcaliber.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/ms-13-101/ http://www.altereddimensions.net/crime/ms13gang.aspx There are many more sources that all state the same thing and that the gang originated in El Salvador Jesterly82 (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done Corrected, and the reference cited to Los Angeles was left because it states correctly that the origin was El Salvador. Goodvac (talk) 06:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

origin of Mara Salvatrucha (name and location)

1.) There is NO street named "mara" in El Salvador. You can look at ANY map of El Salvador and will not find a street with that name. 2.) In El Salvador, the term "mara" means group of friends and is still widely used today. This was even before the civil war, so the notion that it was a group of guerrillas is also untrue.

It wasn't until the gang grew, by way of deportations, that the term "mara" evolved to mean "street gang", and now is synonimous with "Central American street gang" in some circles. It's true origin, as noted by the Diccionario de la Lengua Española (Real Academia dictionary of the Spanish language) means "people"

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=mara mara.

1. f. El Salv., Guat., Hond. y Méx. Pandilla de muchachos.

2. f. El Salv. Gente, pueblo, chusma.

3.) Mara Salvatrucha started in Los Angeles, California and spread through North and Central America during the 1990's, mainly because of deportations.

Do a search of the archives of the Los Angeles Times and you will find articles dating back to the early 1980's. Here's one from 1989:

U.S.-L.A. Task Force Deports 175 With Ties to Drug, Gang Activity [Home Edition]

Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext) - Los Angeles, Calif. Author: STEPHEN BRAUN Date: Apr 12, 1989 Start Page: 3 Section: Metro; 2; Metro Desk Text Word Count: 588

Abstract (Document Summary) 
 

Though authorities did not provide specific details on the crimes committed by the deported gang members, they said that in one case, the task force decimated the leadership of Mara Salvatrucha, a Salvadoran street gang. John Brechtel, assistant district director for INS investigations in Los Angeles, said that more than 20 key members of the gang were deported.

Under the task force program, INS agents, police and sheriff's deputies target illegal aliens known to be gang members for deportation. Some are deported after they are arrested and charged with crimes. But in some cases, INS agents have deported gang members even if police have been unable to charge them with any illegal activities.

[Harold Ezell] said that about 9,000 aliens with felony convictions have been deported in the last six months from the INS Western Region, which encompasses California, Arizona, Nevada, Hawaii and Guam. Of those, 2,058 were deported from Los Angeles, he said.

More proof that Mara Salvatrucha started in Los Angeles, CA and spread to Central America and Mexico due to deportations:

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress05/swecker042005.htm

taken from this website: Statement of Chris Swecker Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative Division Federal Bureau of Investigation Before the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere House International Relations Committee April 20, 2005

"Additionally, the deportation of MS-13 and 18th Street gang members from the United States to their countries of origin is partially responsible for the growth of those gangs in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and Mexico, "

Ssoul (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)