Revision as of 03:04, 9 May 2010

Muir Skate Longboard Shop

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Most of the coverage I'm finding for this company is either local and/or not independent of the subject. Contested prod. Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. -- Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this company. Joe Chill (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This shop was on the UCSD campus for years and because of that, it is notable. PÆonU (talk) 03:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Read WP:CORP. Joe Chill (talk) 20:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - They were featured in an international magazine, Concrete Wave Magazine volume 6 issue 4, on page 31. At the time they were known as "Muir Surf and Skate".

[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by PÆonU (talk • contribs) 21:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's one source, not multiple. Joe Chill (talk) 22:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- One international source and multiple local sources. It's notable as hell, and in addition, it's part of UCSD. Even though it's off-campus now, it was the one of the first board stores on a college campus. That is BIG. You have literally no idea how notable Muir Skate is. It's the biggest online longboarding store and has a huge presence on the campus. PÆonU (talk) 22:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - You literally have no idea how most editors consider local news as not showing notability. Joe Chill (talk) 22:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Here's my question. Why are there so many skate articles like this with just as many, and even less sources? And another question, since the store was on the UCSD campus for many years, wouldn't it be protected like the other UCSD articles? PÆonU (talk) 22:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If businesses on a campus are non-notable (none are protected unless they are notable), they could be merged to the college. I'm not sure if this could be merged since it's not on the campus anymore. I'm not tracking to attack your article or anything. Joe Chill (talk) 22:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I found some more sources.

Oct 2005: [2]

Oct 2007: [3]

Nov 2009: [4] PÆonU (talk) 23:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- - - Joe Chill, when you say You literally have no idea how most editors consider local news as not showing notability., I'm curious. If you are looking for multiple coverage in something, because you believe in following the notability guideline, then why not consider local news sources as well? Is there somewhere in that suggested guideline that is against them? Dream Focus 13:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Google news search for their original name, Muir Surf & Sport, showed one result. [5] It gets coverage there. So that's another source found. Dream Focus 13:21, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dream Focus, I'm not going to get into a debate with an ultra inclusionist like you. It would be pointless. Joe Chill (talk) 20:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I feel the same way about talking to guys like you, who can't defend your position with logical statements. Dream Focus 20:53, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Your inclusionism is illogical. So every thing with local news should have an article? That's stupid and is not why Wikipedia exists. Joe Chill (talk)
Rescue. This store is notable and is still part of the UCSD campus. It has international notability and has been in The Guardian multiple times. Therefor, I think this article deserves a chance to be worked on. PÆonU (talk) 09:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This article has been nominated for rescue. PÆonU (talk) 09:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This might be hard for some to believe but I'm new at this sort of thing. I've been relisting and closing AFDs for a few years but until now, almost all my nominations have been of the hoaxy variety. Slam dunk deletes and I have no problem doing my best to get bullshit deleted. I don't like telling good faith editors who create pages on subjects that they care about that their submissions are not "good enough" for Wikipedia. In this case, I found the article doing new page patrol and it seemed like a cut and dry case of a company with little or no notability outside of the local area.
Such AFDs are quite common. A new editor creates an article about a local restaurant or something, it get's taken to AFD where everybody says "delete", quotes a bunch of WP:TLAs, parrots the common term "significant coverage in reliable sources", and insists that the coverage be "non local". Well, I went back and reviewed our notability guidelines and it does not mention anything about how geographically diverse the coverage has to be. A restaurant in a small town that's been a local institution for 50 years will likely have quite a bit of local press coverage which one might call "significant" so why not have an article on it? If we are to continue arguing in deletion debates that coverage needs to be widespread then that needs to be written into the guidelines. This is an issue I may bring up at the village pump.
My main concern with having a lot of articles about small local companies like this is that they vulnerable to some of the same risks as articles about marginally notable living people. Most will be on few watchlists. Let's say you have an article about a local restaurant and a dis-satisfied customer or a competitor adds in some unverified but credible sounding bull about them failing several health inspections or the premises being unsafe or in the case of a store, about the product being safe. This can actually harm the business in question. TL;DR "wall of text" over :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not just local, it has been featured in an international magazine. Even if it was purely local, the rules say nothing about local sources not being good enough. Your interpretation only limits the use of Wikipedia. An important part of this website is the ability to change things yourself. If a dissatisfied customer vandalizes the page, it will be caught fast. There are plenty of people checking recent edits for vandalism, so I wouldn't worry about that. PÆonU (talk) 03:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to something, Im not familiar with the area but if there is a category/article that includes stuff relating to campus culture it would make sense to have it there. This might be construed as a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument but almost all major universities have a bunch of peripheral businesses that are only notable because they are within walking distance of campus and everyone who has attended has been there, e.g. Harvard Book Store Grolier Poetry Bookshop.--Savonneux (talk) 23:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very strong delete nothing in gnews, the one hit that Dream Focus found makes a mockery of the significant coverage test as per WP:GNG. LibStar (talk) 10:50, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And you make a mockery of the system by attacking me(with a false accusation of something I clearly wasn't doing) in another AFD [6] and then six minutes later, your next edit of the day, is to post here insulting me directly. This isn't the type of article you normally participate in. How did you find it, if you weren't following me? You seem rather angry once again, had a fit, then followed me to another AFD I participated in, which you wouldn't have found or bothered with otherwise, and made a comment like that. Taken in context with your past behavior, this seems to be wikistalking. Dream Focus 21:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I laugh at your accusation of me having a fit or being so angry. None of which is true. I participate in a wide range of deletion discussions. and have partipated in an AfD on a very similar topic last month: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Orchard_Skate_Shop. suggest you WP:CHILL with paranoid accusations, none of which refutes my claims for deletion here. have a good day. LibStar (talk) 07:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - there are no significant claims to or references for notability (as per WP:CORP) in the article. The references included and the only mentions I could find through Google searches are nothing more than trivial mentions. The article appears to exist solely as a soapbox. --Pump me up 15:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about the international sources and newspaper articles? This is getting ridiculous. I mean, come on. Is there even any point in debating this out anymore if nobody is going to listen? I think I should stop wasting my time debating this out and give up on the article if nobody will listen to logic. PÆonU (talk) 01:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep~~ (in spite of attempted canvassing by PÆonU) UCSD Guardian appears to be a reliable source, which when combined with the short, but not insignificant mention found by Dream Focus, appears to establish notability under WP:CORP. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That is not independent of the subject. It is a student newspaper for UCSD. Joe Chill (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Changing to Delete While I feel the the Guardian meets the requirement of being independent (as it is not a press vehicle for the store, or similar), while rereading WP:CORP I came across the line "attention solely from local media…is not an indication of notability", which means that for these purposes, while independent, the Guardian isn't an indication of notability, leaving only the short non-local mention; so barring any new developments I feel it fails the notability guidelines as written. VernoWhitney (talk) 00:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know "canvassing" even existed. Muir Skate was featured in an international magazine. Don't forget, they are not just a company, they are much like the Harvard bookstore. I bet 99% of the country has no idea of either stores' existence, but they're both part of the school's culture and are protected. With your delete vote, you're basically stating that articles like the Harvard Bookstore aren't worthy of an encyclopedia entry. Why not nominate that article for deletion too? PÆonU (talk) 05:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep A few local and one international source is enough to meet WP:CORP 74.103.239.178 (talk) 02:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"'Significant coverage' means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material."
When evaluating the notability of organizations, please consider whether it has had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education. Large organizations are likely to have more readily available verifiable information from reliable sources that provide evidence of notability; however, smaller organizations can be notable, just as individuals can be notable, and arbitrary standards should not be used to create a bias favoring larger organizations.

Referring to 1., multiple local newspaper articles (The Guardian is a HUGE magazine) and an international source meets the requirements. WP:GNG states that this article needs "reliable sources." Reliable sources are any reputable magazines or newspapers, not just national and international ones. Your interpretation only causes unnecessary deletion. Some idiot tried to use this interpretation of reliable sources to try (and fail) to delete the page on Black Angus Steakhouse, which is gigantic in California. Until you get the rules changed, you can either search for and delete the thousands of articles with only local notability or leave them like they should be. The rules encourage more good articles, not less good articles.

Referring to 2., Muir Skate, being the first board store on a campus, has turned UCSD into one of, if not the best, skate schools. Thanks to Muir Skate, a huge population of students use longboards to travel around campus. While they were on the campus, they offered skate classes to students, so even non-customers with no prior experience could start skating. Because of this, I believe Muir Skate has affected the school's culture and athletics. UCSD has over 22,000 students, whereas Harvard has about 1,000 less students. Another point brought up by Savonneux is that the Harvard Book Store and Grolier Poetry Bookshop have articles. Since UCSD is a larger school, it should have articles about it's campus businesses too. PÆonU (talk) 12:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just to clarify my recommendation was to merge, my opinion is that since that most of its notability is derived from the school it should be included in the school or a school related article. It's not prejudicial, most small or even most non public companies don't meet WP:CORP unless they have done something remarkably unique (and even then most are only referenced in the aricles about the unique thing they have done.)--Savonneux (talk) 09:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muir Skate was the first board store on a continental U.S. college campus. I can't say the same about the Harvard bookstore. PÆonU (talk) 22:15, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Has affected UCSD culture —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.101.74 (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC) — 72.220.101.74 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Keep It has more sources than Harvard Book Store —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.245.247 (talk) 01:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC) — 24.214.245.247 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete local notability only shown. Fails WP:N -- RP459 ^Talk/_{Contributions} 02:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an international magazine they were featured in. [7] PÆonU (talk) 02:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise

This is the classic deletionist vs. inclusionist vs. middle ground debate. Everything that can be said about the article has already been repeated by all sides and there's no point in continuing the debate. To the administrator who decides the fate of this article, if you're leaning towards the deletionists' side, at least merge it here. Muir Skate was the first campus board store in the continental U.S., has multiple local sources and an international source (not even the Harvard Book Store has that), and has had an effect on the culture of a campus with over 20,000 people. If that's not notable enough for an article, it at least deserves a merge. PÆonU (talk) 02:54, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- I second this proposition. Those who know the longboarding community understand that this store carries quite a good deal of significance. Furthermore, it is not limited to obscurity as a local shop, because it has also become a popular online retailer of longboarding goods and is well-known throughout the longboarding community in the United States. Moogleluvr (talk) 03:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 67: / Line 67: @@
 =Compromise=
 This is the classic deletionist vs. inclusionist vs. middle ground debate. Everything that can be said about the article has already been repeated by all sides and there's no point in continuing the debate. To the administrator who decides the fate of this article, if you're leaning towards the deletionists' side, at least merge it [[UCSD#Student_life|here.]] Muir Skate was the first campus board store in the continental U.S., has multiple local sources and an international source (not even the [[Harvard Book Store]] has that), and has had an effect on the culture of a campus with over 20,000 people. If that's not notable enough for an article, it at least deserves a merge. [[User:PÆonU|PÆonU]] ([[User talk:PÆonU|talk]]) 02:54, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
+**I second this proposition. Those who know the longboarding community understand that this store carries quite a good deal of significance. Furthermore, it is not limited to obscurity as a local shop, because it has also become a popular online retailer of longboarding goods and is well-known throughout the longboarding community in the United States. [[User:Moogleluvr|Moogleluvr]] ([[User talk:Moogleluvr|talk]]) 03:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)