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:: While I understand your points, I wish you hadn't been such a big meanie about expressing them. Or am I just being a manhole here? ;) [[User:Ebikeguy|Ebikeguy]] ([[User talk:Ebikeguy|talk]]) 01:38, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
:: While I understand your points, I wish you hadn't been such a big meanie about expressing them. Or am I just being a manhole here? ;) [[User:Ebikeguy|Ebikeguy]] ([[User talk:Ebikeguy|talk]]) 01:38, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
:: Oh, and it looks like someone edited his article per his previous suggestions on his talk page. It is now an non-encyclopedic pile of self-promotion. I don't want to get in an edit war, but I would like someone to edit it back to the last quasi-encyclopedic version and protect it pending the resolution of this silliness. [[User:Ebikeguy|Ebikeguy]] ([[User talk:Ebikeguy|talk]]) 01:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
:: Oh, and it looks like someone edited his article per his previous suggestions on his talk page. It is now an non-encyclopedic pile of self-promotion. I don't want to get in an edit war, but I would like someone to edit it back to the last quasi-encyclopedic version and protect it pending the resolution of this silliness. [[User:Ebikeguy|Ebikeguy]] ([[User talk:Ebikeguy|talk]]) 01:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
:: Or it isn't canvassing but rather an indication of the man's popularity that people were so outraged by the proposed deletion that they created accounts purely to object to the plan. --[[User:Cathbard|Cathbard]] ([[User talk:Cathbard|talk]]) 13:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)


*'''DO NOT DELETE.''' My argument for not deleting Mr. Zubaty's entry comes as a podcaster. Podcasting, by its very nature, is not intended for people who are already regarded as "notable" by cultural fiat, or media/academic manipulation. It is a powerful forum for real people with something significant to say, to say it, and they sink or swim based on their popularity. If they sink, they were not notable, if they swim, they are notable. I disagree with many things that Mr. Zubaty says, yet I regard his example as a strong influence on myself, other viewers of his work, and other podcasters. To say he is not notable in the podcasting world is naive, and incorrect. The size of the audience does not matter in podcasting. What matters is the IMPACT that a podcaster makes, and whether or not they endure despite having no corporate resources. To read so many words of support here, and then proceed to blow Zubaty off as irrelevant, is to challenge the significance of every member of his audience. How dare you! In my opinion, based on what I have seen, this is a veiled attempt to censor unpopular opinions. I try to take Wikipedia seriously, despite the fact that controversial topics and individuals are almost always edited to favor the more rabid side of the controversy. But moving to actually delete a controversial figure is unacceptable. It is tantamount to virtual assassination. In the context of what Rich Zubaty does, he is very significant, and even if I disagree with him I regard him are more notable than 95% of the individuals featured in mainstream media (including publishing houses; hence the significance of self-publishing), because the man demonstrates how to think for yourself. Those who wish to censor him only demonstrate the very problem that prevents so many people from thinking for themselves. Mr. Zubaty is a veteran podcaster, who has labored long and hard against terrible obstacles to establish his niche in the New Media without even the intent of developing an overwhelmingly large audience. That is significant, and that is notable. He has accomplished more than I have in this regard--and I teach podcasting to others! He deserves recognition for his many accomplishments, which never cease to impress me (again, even though I may disagree with his IDEAS). I remain unsigned because I see no point to "joining" a web information tool that is so easily manipulated by fanatics. This topic should never have been raised in the first place, especially under such a transparent pretense. I've lost respect for Wikipedia, to even have to waste my time stating the obvious here.<small><span class="autosigned"><!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/155.229.56.138|155.229.56.138]] ([[User talk:155.229.56.138|talk]]) 20:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--></small>
*'''DO NOT DELETE.''' My argument for not deleting Mr. Zubaty's entry comes as a podcaster. Podcasting, by its very nature, is not intended for people who are already regarded as "notable" by cultural fiat, or media/academic manipulation. It is a powerful forum for real people with something significant to say, to say it, and they sink or swim based on their popularity. If they sink, they were not notable, if they swim, they are notable. I disagree with many things that Mr. Zubaty says, yet I regard his example as a strong influence on myself, other viewers of his work, and other podcasters. To say he is not notable in the podcasting world is naive, and incorrect. The size of the audience does not matter in podcasting. What matters is the IMPACT that a podcaster makes, and whether or not they endure despite having no corporate resources. To read so many words of support here, and then proceed to blow Zubaty off as irrelevant, is to challenge the significance of every member of his audience. How dare you! In my opinion, based on what I have seen, this is a veiled attempt to censor unpopular opinions. I try to take Wikipedia seriously, despite the fact that controversial topics and individuals are almost always edited to favor the more rabid side of the controversy. But moving to actually delete a controversial figure is unacceptable. It is tantamount to virtual assassination. In the context of what Rich Zubaty does, he is very significant, and even if I disagree with him I regard him are more notable than 95% of the individuals featured in mainstream media (including publishing houses; hence the significance of self-publishing), because the man demonstrates how to think for yourself. Those who wish to censor him only demonstrate the very problem that prevents so many people from thinking for themselves. Mr. Zubaty is a veteran podcaster, who has labored long and hard against terrible obstacles to establish his niche in the New Media without even the intent of developing an overwhelmingly large audience. That is significant, and that is notable. He has accomplished more than I have in this regard--and I teach podcasting to others! He deserves recognition for his many accomplishments, which never cease to impress me (again, even though I may disagree with his IDEAS). I remain unsigned because I see no point to "joining" a web information tool that is so easily manipulated by fanatics. This topic should never have been raised in the first place, especially under such a transparent pretense. I've lost respect for Wikipedia, to even have to waste my time stating the obvious here.<small><span class="autosigned"><!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/155.229.56.138|155.229.56.138]] ([[User talk:155.229.56.138|talk]]) 20:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--></small>

Revision as of 13:04, 10 May 2010

Rich Zubaty

Rich Zubaty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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I noticed this article because Mr. Zubaty himself has been busily creating links to it from other articles. When I read it, though, his chief claims to notability seem to be three self-published books and a podcast, and when I performed a google news search, I couldn't find any reliable, independent sources writing about his importance. In my opinion, there is not enough verifiable information currently available to write an article about this subject. FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep But in MY opinion the books are well-researched and full of references. Other authors, many from academic backgrounds, are quoted at length. The point of Wikipedia is to BUILD an article step by step. As someone who had read some of Mr. Zubaty's books I vehemently DISAGREE that this article should be deleted. Indeed, it should be allowed to be expanded just like other articles. Wikipedia should NOT be biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.226.223 (talk) 13:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC) \[reply]
    • — 86.184.226.223 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • Note: This user, based on my recent interactions, is almost certainly Rich Zubaty- see my talk page. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wrong: As a quick verification of IP addresses will show, not even a good author can be in two parts of the world at once. So much for FisherQueen’s judgement and so much for her opinions. I am NOT Rich Zubaty, but someone who has read his books. And someone who is trying contribute to Wikipedia but keeps having his additions removed by vandals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.198.144 (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • In fact, I'd love to expand this article, and started out by trying to do so. Wikipedia's rules only allow me to use information that doesn't come directly from Zubaty, though- I need to use information from neutral sources like newspapers and magazines, or books that have been written about him, not by him. I couldn't find even one source that I could use to expand the article. If you know of any, that's the best way to help the article, because we aren't allowed to keep information that isn't verified in sources like that, and in this article, removing the unsourced information leaves no article at all. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, no references, not notable; N.B. IP clearly refuses to read the guidelines (forced reinsertion of inappropriate links, etc.). --Dirk Beetstra T C 14:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • DO NOT DELETE. I read Mr Zubaty's first book years ago and found it to be one of a very limited number of books I have read that had a significant impact on my own thinking. He is a free thinker and not tethered by the conventions of political correctness. I found this refreshing as I also found his ideas stimulating. Suggesting to delete his page here seems to make absolutely no sense to me. Unless different ideas that don't match with political correctness are a reason for deletion I can't think why someone would want to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmccull (talk • contribs) 22:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • DO NOT DELETE. Mr. Zubaty is a well known activist and author in the men's rights movement. To delete his page would be no different than deleting that of a similar feminist icon from the women's movement. Making any distinction between self published books and those published by more traditional methods is discriminatory, especially give the bias in publishing houses regarding men's rights literature.

Paul Elam Editor-in-Chief Men's News Daily —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.88.191 (talk) 18:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Baehr Publisher, Menletter.org My newsletter, Menletter.org, contains a review of one of Rich Zubaty's books at http://menletter.org/articles/What Men Know That Women Don't.htm. His is a voice many may find irritating, and the content of his thoughts may not be universally accepted. I see these as no reason to delete his bio. Menletter is in its ninth year of publication. Menletter (talk) 18:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blogs aren't reliable sources, and neither are forums, which means the first, second, and fourth items on your list are out. I didn't see an article about Zubaty with any information at "fathersforlife," just a quote from one of his books. We could use that to verify that quote is in the book, if we needed to, but that's all I saw. I can't figure out what "angryharry" has to do with Zubaty, nor can I figure out whether it would be a reliable source- it looks like some guy's blog, not like a published newspaper or magazine or a significant source of information, and I didn't see anything about Zubaty- maybe I looked in the wrong place. Has he been interviewed in a real newspaper, or in a print magazine, or written about on a web site that isn't a blog? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Zubaty has requested that his page be deleted
I am not sure if this is significant, but a user claiming to be Zubaty has specifically requested that this page be deleted. His statement is as follows, "DELETE my page. I just had someone from Huffington Post link to my wiki page at which point I found out that all my links have been removed. Sabotage. I would rather people link directly to my web site. Rich Zubaty." Ebikeguy (talk) 02:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • DO NOT DELETE. This is a transparent attempt at censorship. This is obvious by the attempt to belittle the man with the "self published" comment. It is ironic because Zubaty warns against suckling at the corporate teat in his books. He is a well known activist being persecuted by this scurrilous attack by an opponent. Here is a link to a search on a well known activist site with many references to him ** http://news.mensactivism.org/search/node/Zubaty

Quite frankly I find this attempt to censor Zubaty absurd. This is a feminist trying to censor a men's rights activist on the grounds that he has little presence in the corporate press - which is also a group that he opposes. Men's rights are largely ignored by the press, are we going to make Wikipedia also a means of suppressing things that are not deemed politically correct by feminists and the corporate world? Outrageous!! --Cathbard (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • — Cathbard (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • Yes, I wondered when one of you would start getting insulting with me personally. Looking at his web site, I figured that most of the people in this discussion would object to a female editor explaining the rules to them. If that's a problem, I certainly don't mind if you read the rules for yourself. I've linked them in this discussion already several times. I can't promise that no women were involved i writing them, but many men were involved; if I recall the last set of statistics correctly, there are more men than women editing Wikipedia, so you can read WP:BIO comfortable in the knowledge that they are at least mostly written by people with penises. Normally, people start getting insulting in these discussions when they've realized that the person they want to write about really doesn't meet the notability criteria; is that the position you're in? You can still write about him on your own web site, where you can make the rules yourself and don't have to let any women participate. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was pointing out that you are a self-professed feminist attacking a men's movement activist, not that you were just a woman. That gives you a vested interested in silencing people like Zubaty. It is you that is getting insulting (what a surprise!). He is a notable activist referred to regularly on the net even if the corporate press ignore him like they do with practically every aspect of the MRM. Your attempt at censorship is blatantly part of your feminist agenda and should be dismissed out of hand as such. --Cathbard (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, I understand that you are blaming my identification of myself as a feminist, rather than your own inability to find reliable sources discussing a person you claim is notable. You are incorrect, but the only way to really test that is to provide two or three sources which unimpeachably meet the reliable sources guidelines, and then see if I try to "censor" you by removing them from the article or continuing to support deletion. I, too, am frequently discussed on the internet, but that does not mean I am a useful subject for an encyclopedia article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • We have given you several links within the MRM but apparently they don't count to your feminist-centric mind. He is notable within the movement as we have clearly demonstrated. Your objection to the movement itself (as your derogatory comments have clearly shown) does not make his notability any the less but does support my assertion that this is purely a feminist attack on the MRM and has nothing to do with the rules.--Cathbard (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rich Zubati is a well know within his field of writing. He is also am active painter and artist. I can not see why deleting this page would be justified. Wikipedia is a good place for people to come to find out about people who are not easy to investigate otherwise. I often come to Wikipedia to find out about obscure people and events. If you want to continue to provide this sevice then certainly I would not delete this page.

DO NOT DELETE Rich Zubatay is an independent thinker who deserves to be heard, not censored. So many voices like Rich's have been censored, mainly because they aren't mainstream. Well, many people are tired of mainstream. I cannot believe the lengths some people will go to muzzle the voices of people they don't agree with. His thoughts on the corporatization of America has been very enlightening, particularly in "Corporate Vampires". Are encourage everyone to check out his books on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/002-8815806-6782464?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&field-keywords=Rich+Zubaty&Go.x=11&Go.y=12). But here is the bottom line: many other people have been published on Wikipedia for contributing much less than Rich Zubatay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandel17 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • — Mandel17 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • SO does that make my point any less valid? You seem to judge the content of arguments by the number of comments on Wikipedia. That is a blatant attempt to discredit. I would really like to know who is running Wikipedia.

DO NOT DELETE or DO... Rich, it's just wikipedia. my two cents: i read rich's book 'what men know.." during the lowest point of my life, the great divorce fiasco of '03. i do not exaggerate when i say his book not only enlightened me and provided salve to my torment, his book significantly contributed to my sanity, reatining my personal freedom and eventual recovery from the court-societal humiliation and pillaging of a man. lastly, what is FisherQueen infering by her moniker? that she's the female version of mythical wounded king who's kindgom suffers as he does? in mythology or reality women can just swap out a feminine archetype for a male despite the fact that the myth's, or reality's, male hero is the essence to begin with? men have built our modern world, because they were men. women did not because they are not capable of, or they would have. later rich! suck it, wikipedia! unsigned —Preceding comment added by User:130.76.32.167 (talk • contribs) 15:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please DO NOT DELETE I have known Rich for over ten years and have appreciated his books, video's and podcasts. His #3 podcast is an absolute classic in MRM and a critical view of the past 40 years of American History. Rich is often quoted by other men's rights activists and is well respected in the movement. He's our Fisher King User:QIM —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC).[reply]

DO NOT DELETE. While it is clear that Mr. Zubaty must stop editing inappropriately, it seems equally clear that his is a noteworthy voice in the men's movement and that he is deserving of an article. The outpouring of endorsements on this page lead me to conclude that, while this article needs work, it should remain. Ebikeguy (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Has it occured to you that maybe this didn't just happen but rather they were asked to come here and comment? It seems fairly obvious to me that Mr. Zubaty has asked people that he feels are sympathetic to his agenda to come and comment here. I count at least six single purpose accounts with few or no other edits in this debate, it's pretty clear there has been some canvassing going on. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I understand your points, I wish you hadn't been such a big meanie about expressing them. Or am I just being a manhole here?  ;) Ebikeguy (talk) 01:38, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and it looks like someone edited his article per his previous suggestions on his talk page. It is now an non-encyclopedic pile of self-promotion. I don't want to get in an edit war, but I would like someone to edit it back to the last quasi-encyclopedic version and protect it pending the resolution of this silliness. Ebikeguy (talk) 01:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or it isn't canvassing but rather an indication of the man's popularity that people were so outraged by the proposed deletion that they created accounts purely to object to the plan. --Cathbard (talk) 13:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • DO NOT DELETE. My argument for not deleting Mr. Zubaty's entry comes as a podcaster. Podcasting, by its very nature, is not intended for people who are already regarded as "notable" by cultural fiat, or media/academic manipulation. It is a powerful forum for real people with something significant to say, to say it, and they sink or swim based on their popularity. If they sink, they were not notable, if they swim, they are notable. I disagree with many things that Mr. Zubaty says, yet I regard his example as a strong influence on myself, other viewers of his work, and other podcasters. To say he is not notable in the podcasting world is naive, and incorrect. The size of the audience does not matter in podcasting. What matters is the IMPACT that a podcaster makes, and whether or not they endure despite having no corporate resources. To read so many words of support here, and then proceed to blow Zubaty off as irrelevant, is to challenge the significance of every member of his audience. How dare you! In my opinion, based on what I have seen, this is a veiled attempt to censor unpopular opinions. I try to take Wikipedia seriously, despite the fact that controversial topics and individuals are almost always edited to favor the more rabid side of the controversy. But moving to actually delete a controversial figure is unacceptable. It is tantamount to virtual assassination. In the context of what Rich Zubaty does, he is very significant, and even if I disagree with him I regard him are more notable than 95% of the individuals featured in mainstream media (including publishing houses; hence the significance of self-publishing), because the man demonstrates how to think for yourself. Those who wish to censor him only demonstrate the very problem that prevents so many people from thinking for themselves. Mr. Zubaty is a veteran podcaster, who has labored long and hard against terrible obstacles to establish his niche in the New Media without even the intent of developing an overwhelmingly large audience. That is significant, and that is notable. He has accomplished more than I have in this regard--and I teach podcasting to others! He deserves recognition for his many accomplishments, which never cease to impress me (again, even though I may disagree with his IDEAS). I remain unsigned because I see no point to "joining" a web information tool that is so easily manipulated by fanatics. This topic should never have been raised in the first place, especially under such a transparent pretense. I've lost respect for Wikipedia, to even have to waste my time stating the obvious here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.229.56.138 (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC) [reply]
  • DO NOT DELETE This attempt at censorship apparently based on nothing but a personal dislike of Mr Zubatys veiws is abhorrent.

Mr Zubaty is widely read and on a personal note his writtings have influenced my thinking in a number of areas,his writing is clear his arguments well thought out and well referenced for source. If censorship like this is allowed to continue then wikipedia will have failed in its object to be an open source of information and beome the site of group think that so many accuse it of being. Mr Zubaty has written several books and articles,and the article about him as far as Ican tell is factually accurate,leave it alone!Peter318200 (talk) 10:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


MORE LINKS

have any of you taken a gander at FisherQueen's wiki page thingy?! what a horror show. rich and co., screw this wiki crap. if people like FisherQueen (yes, i'm judging) are responsible for administering this site and it's content, why would you want to be associated with it?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.167 (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2010 (UTC) get a load of this wiki-message: "If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes."[reply]

why i "came here" wiki is none of your damn business... majority vote? oh, i see, if the reason must meet some effing guideline to post on this stupid, nonsensical lesbian feminazi site. EFF YOU WIKIPEDIA! ! ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.167 (talk) 20:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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