Talk:Post-hardcore

/Archive 1

Emo is Post-Hardcore?

Well, think about it, Emo is a kind of evolution from Hardcore, and it came out as the style began to die out. So could it be seen as a type of Post-Hardcore? Moreover, wasn't Emo influential to accepted Post-Hardcore bands? Should that be mentioned. D33PPURPLE 05:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

emo is more of a branch off of hardcore punk, not hardcore, which are two entirely different things. so no, imho emo did not influence post-hardcore bands enough to have an impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.206.107 (talk) 03:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Literally speaking, emo is post-hardcore, but they are two different styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.204.92 (talk) 05:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC) y Rites of Spring would be considered both Post-Hardcore and Emo. The two terms are very related, but Post-Hardcore seems to be a lot broader. RKFS (talk) 19:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference between them? I honestly have no idea. I was under the impression that the differentiation lay in the fact that the lyrical themes present in emo music are predominantly personal. Is it a necessity? Does this also a apply to Post hardcore? It is through the personal themes that i was able to identify Rites of Spring as an emo band. But after all they did come to as a result of the hardcore movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.34.43 (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Isn't "Emo" just short for "emotional rock?" I remember Good Charlotte referencing themselves as such on, of all things, the Jeff Dunham Show. 98.198.83.12 (talk) 05:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

"Emo" was disregarded by its 'creator'. Besides, you can't really call Big Black, Minutemen or Wipers "emo", can you? --190.157.153.179 (talk) 05:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Describing the 2000's Post-Hardcore

I saw this article here, and saw that it wasn't very specific about the STYLE of music. It is much different from early Post-Hardcore. I attempted to do this myself, but I do not know whether I need to reference the SOUND of these bands...like, do I really need a source that backs up that these new p-h bands are more melodic and commercial? Thanks for the help~New poster (DeepPurple) 05:02, 22 February 2009 (UTC).

• Most likely it will need to be cited, but then again there aren't a whole lot of sources that say what it is even though it's thrown around a lot. In any case this section looks a lot better than the ones I've seen on the page (not to mention that it's actually reliably sourced, for once). It'll probably need some cleaning up, but I'll help as much as I can. TheLetterM (talk) 05:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I wish you luck on finding some good reliable sources. Mainstream media describes 2000s post-hardcore bands as either emo or screamo. Fezmar9 (talk) 06:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)\

Thanks guys. For the first part of my description (that the 2000's bands are identified as Emo/Screamo I was thinking of using the Screamo page's citation on it, to show that they are often interchangeable, but I do not know how to cite things properly. Can anyone care to help? Sorry, I just got into this, so I need some help and stuff. As for the citations that describe what is called 'screamo' as post-hardcore, I'm sure that if we look hard enough, we will find at least one. Thank for all the help, I shall try and to my best to find those darn citations User:D33PPURPLE D33PPURPLE (talk) 21:53, 22 February 2009 (UTC).

Oi, just found an article in Rhapsody that describest he 2000's wave as more melodic with sometimes metallic edge. Not only that, but it described this post-hardcore as Emo Post-Hardcore, so I'm going on to post that. I will paste the website here: http://www.rhapsody.com/alt-punk/emo-hardcore/post-hardcore/more.html

Can someone cite it for me, or tell me how to do it? Thanks! D33PPURPLE (talk) 22:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC) User:D33PPURPLE

This might not classify as a reliable source. This is just a short description written on an online media player, and not a published source. Fezmar9 (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

So, rhapsody doesn't count? I would think that a big name company (?) would qualify, merely because it is a big musically commercial company that seems like a defining musical authority, know what I mean? Kinda like AMG...but I suppose if that doesn't count, I can find another one... User:D33PPURPLED33PPURPLE (talk) 00:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Rhapsody is considered a store much like amazon.com or iTunes, which are not considered published sources. Their descriptions are also typically copied and pasted from other sources around the net. If you google a specific passage from the rhapsody description in quotes you might be able to find it. Fezmar9 (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Aight. I'll do that soon as I find time. There HAS to be at least one source... [User:D33PPURPLE] D33PPURPLE (talk) 00:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Can't find any sources...>_>...Ah...would it be okay to cite a source saying that Thrice brought more melody to the Post-Hardcore sound, then cite AMG reviews where they say Emo is a more commercial and melodic type, while the post-hardcore sound is the harsher sounds heard in Post-hardcore? And from there describe the sound? D33PPURPLE (talk) 18:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)D33PPURPLE

Sounds like original research. You will need to find a source that directly supports your claims. Fezmar9 (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced 2000s section

Sooo....we're REALLY going to call bands like Thrice, Thursday, Underoath, and freaking GLASSJAW post-hardcore? I don't think so... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.184.165.20 (talk) 19:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• Well, if no sources come around to support claims that those bands fall into the genre, probably not. While I do recognize that a good deal of music journalism does refer to the aforementioned bands as "post-hardcore", we've yet to see a single source for that in the 2000s section. It's been tagged since August, that whole section could essentially be deleted at any time -- though at least it's not as bad as when this article had that "bands considered as art-rock" section that people just kept adding and deleting bands from. That was a mess. TheLetterM (talk) 03:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
• All right, I think it's time for an ultimatum. The 2000s section is currently used by editors to bicker over whether or not bands like Rise Against or Scary Kids Scaring Kids are post-hardcore, and the whole thing is unreferenced. If no references are cited by next week I'm deleting the whole thing. TheLetterM (talk) 03:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're prepared to delete it, which genre do you propose to switch the bands to? The only definition of post-hardcore at the moment is loud guitar based instrumentation with a mixture of screams and singing. However much people don't like it the 2000's bands fit into that definition.84.69.227.157 (talk) 21:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• It's not that the bands don't fit into the genre that's an issue. As much as I don't like the bands described, I do recognize that the term "post-hardcore" is adequate to describe the bands in the 2000s section. The issue is that it's completely unreferenced and people edit war over what bands should be included. AllMusic probably tags specific bands under the genre, that's probably the best place to start. I wish I was able to find more sources for the section myself, but the genre specifications are so nebulous to begin with anyway. TheLetterM (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

shouldnt there be stuff about todays post hardcore bands? Like alesana and eyes set to kill? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.86.79 (talk) 05:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I added that 2000's section check out the wikipedia pages on those bands if you want a source they will all say POST-HARDCORE the description of the genre is in the music what more of source do you need.

• That's not a reliable source. Reliable sources are what a 2000s section needs to be on the page, something that it didn't have. TheLetterM (talk) 14:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Unless someone starts adding sources, the 2000s section ought to be deleted. WP:NOR. Aryder779 (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

• I removed the latest editions of the 2000s section since it was eventually going to turn into edit-warring. I will reiterate: This page can't have a section on "modern" Post-hardcore without reliable sources, otherwise there's no way to verify any of the information added. I also want to stress that I do want to see a 2000s section on this page. I don't doubt that it exists by any stretch of the imagination, but without any sources to show it exists, it can't remain on this page. TheLetterM (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Attention anyone who knows...

After listening to alot of p-core lately, comparing bands and thinking...

lately alot of people have been calling bands like Alesana, Saosin, and Silverstein emo and screamo (which is a load of bull), and the less ignorant people have been proving this wrong and dismissing these bands as post-hardcore, i'm starting to realize that these bands aren't really that either, some of them are or have melodic metalcore in them, but I don't know what genre they are, if anybody knows, post it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.133.193 (talk) 00:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Silverstein without a shadow of a doubt is Post-Hardcore collisions of vocals is your indication.

Saosin Questionable I'm not even sure where to place them but it's not Post-Hardcore I don't even think there was any screaming in the recent Album perhaps one track. Although, doesn't consist of a typical rock vibe.

Alesana More Post-Hardcore than not although as you cleared up the instrumentation can bring out quite a melodic tune. And typically the lead singer doesn't just scream in a post-Hardcore band (Or so I've noticed) as alesana performs quite the opposite. But, I have to admit I do not know this one. -Bliker Blah

Note: Last.fm is quite a reliable source for band/genre placement. It's all based on how many people agree what the band sounds like... So on the more popular bands it's more often than not wrong at least in the opinion of myself.- Bliker Blah

• Uhh, Last.fm is definitely not a reliable source:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

Because the material on Last.fm is mostly user generated, it's not "reliable". TheLetterM (talk) 02:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

... if you would have read what I typed on this page you wouldn't of had to state user generated and in my opinion that's what makes the genre placement so reliable it's because it's based off majority vote and it gives numerous. I would agree with what ever the band told me they where over anything else. But, last.fm displays the divrsity in the band through a list of genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.240.88 (talk) 06:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• But that's the thing, it's the users who are dictating the content on Last.fm. To compare, let's consider AllMusic.com. To make posts and scrobble plays on Last.fm, you don't need to prove you're a reputable music journalist and can post really whatever you want. Of course, people may disagree with you but no one can effectively stop you from sharing your opinion. On the other hand, the writers for AllMusic are either AMG staff or freelance writers, but any content posted on the website goes through an editing board. That's what makes AllMusic a reliable source over Last.fm. TheLetterM (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Post-Hardcore: Electronicore/Synthcore

Anybody want to elaborate on the recent increase in use of the synthesizer and other "Keys" within the genre of Post-Hardcore. I mean to me it's seems as if the New wave of Post-Hardcore is already experiencing Another type of new "wave". Bands That in my opinion seem to be making this wave grow rapidly in popularity would have to be Attack Attack!, Motionless In White, and House vs. Hurricane. Even bands such as A skylit Drive and Scary kids Scaring Kids Have constant use of an electronic instrument although, not making the sound as much of a spectacle as the previous bands listed.

P.S. Not exactly concerned with logging in so just -Bliker Blah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.240.88 (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that most of these bands who are using more synth are "Melodic Metalcore" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.150.244 (talk) 01:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

No, actually...there is a lot of 2000's Post-hardcore (I call it screamcore) bands using electronics lately. It's not a new wave, per-se. I'd say it's just new bands trying to break free of the pack by adding this.

D33PPURPLE (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)D33PPURPLE

Canadian Post-Hardcore

It is mentioned in the article but only mentions two bands. There are many more well known post-hardcore groups from canada. Protest The Hero is often called Post-Hardcore, Billy Talent is Post Hardcore, Moneen has been called post-hardcore, why aren't these bands in there? There are more too but I can't remember them right now. Can these be sourced and included? I'm terrible with refrences myself so can someone do that? KezianAvenger (talk) 02:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing the "Artists" section

Enormous sections like these often breed plenty of edit wars, so it's better that it's not here. Furthermore, it's supposed to be an "artists" section but only lists bands from the 2000s. If you disagree, feel free to add it back but not without discussing it here. TheLetterM (talk) 22:31, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Recent Trends

I've put back the two last paragraphs in the History section because they are written in a "time line/music style evolution" point of view, describing the more recent trends in this music style. If we add a "various trends" section we should describe and specify all the trends through the history of post-hardcore and not only those two (Electronic & Experimental/Progressive).--Locopunkie (talk) 01:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC)