Talk:John Bosco/Archive 1

Don

'Don' being Italian for 'Mister' is not correct: it is true that in Southern Italy people of station are often called 'don', following an ancient tradition that I guess was introduced by Spaniards, but in this case - and more generally, nation-wide 'don' is the usual honorific for a priest. --Tridentinus 08:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC).

Orginally, Don started as the initials D.O.N. which in Spanish stood for "De Origen Noble", meaning "Of Noble Origin". In time it came to become simply a sign or respect. It is considered an honor to be called a Don and is the reason why all members of the Spanish nobility also use "Don" in their offical names. -— Preceding unsigned comment added by Csucre (talk • contribs)

How did Don Bosco start his work?

How did Don Bosco start his work? (question asked by User:84.67.217.153, moving from article page).

• there are a number of hisitories, but most simply - he saw a need and moved to take care of it.evrik 19:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

LGBT Edits

It has been postulated that Don Bosco was driven by homosexual urges, in particular directed towards the boys he cared for, but never consummated. Giuseppe Cafasso, his confessor, said of him: "Se non fosse che lavora per la gloria di Dio, direi che è un uomo pericoloso, più per quel che non lascia trasparire, che per quel che ci dà a conoscere di sé. Don Bosco, insomma, è un enigma" (If it were not for his work for the glory of God, I would say that he is a dangerous man, more for what he does not allow to be seen than for what he lets us know about himself. Don Bosco, thus, is an enigma.)

His educational principle was that the educator must love the boy, must make the boy feel that he is loved, and by means of this pedagogical love guide him in the proper direction (towards Christian values). The ideal virtue that Don Bosco preached was that of chastity, which has given reason to his biographers to further suspect that it was a result of his sublimation of the sexual impulse. In his relations with the boys he felt compelled (or, some have claimed, "obsessed") to be close to them in order to protect them from falling prey to homosexual or masturbatory temptations.

While he had very tender feelings towards his boys, he had an absolute horror of the female touch. It is told of him that once at the barbershop, realizing it was the barber's wife who was soaping him, he ran out into the street covered with suds. His last written words were "I giovanetti sono la delizia di Gesù e Maria" (The youths are the delight of Jesus and Mary).

The Catholic hierarchy, while distancing itself from the more pederastic nuances of Don Bosco's teachings, has not accepted the homosexual explanation for his motivations. Giacomo Dacquino, professor at the Università Pontificia Salesiana di Torino denonced as "unscientific" homosexual or pederastic interpretations of Don Bosco's work. [1]

reworked version

Thank you. Here is a reworked version:

==Analysis of his character and motivations==

It has been postulated that Don Bosco was driven by homosexual urges, in particular directed towards the boys he cared for, but never consummated. Giuseppe Cafasso, his confessor, said of him: "Se non fosse che lavora per la gloria di Dio, direi che è un uomo pericoloso, più per quel che non lascia trasparire, che per quel che ci dà a conoscere di sé. Don Bosco, insomma, è un enigma" (If it were not for his work for the glory of God, I would say that he is a dangerous man, more for what he does not allow to be seen than for what he lets us know about himself. Don Bosco, thus, is an enigma.)

His educational principle was that the educator must love the boy, must make the boy feel that he is loved, and by means of this pedagogical love guide him in the proper direction (towards Christian values). The ideal virtue that Don Bosco preached was that of chastity, which has given reason to his biographers to further suspect that it was a result of his sublimation of the sexual impulse. In his relations with the boys he felt compelled (or, some have claimed, "obsessed") to be close to them in order to protect them from falling prey to homosexual or masturbatory temptations.

While he had very tender feelings towards his boys, he had an absolute horror of the female touch. It is told of him that once at the barbershop, realizing it was the barber's wife who was soaping him, he ran out into the street covered with suds. His last written words were "I giovanetti sono la delizia di Gesù e Maria" (The youths are the delight of Jesus and Mary).

The Catholic hierarchy, while distancing itself from the more pederastic nuances of Don Bosco's teachings, has not accepted the homosexual explanation for his motivations. Giacomo Dacquino, professor at the Università Pontificia Salesiana di Torino denonced as "unscientific" homosexual or pederastic interpretations of Don Bosco's work. [2]

However, in a comment made shortly before his death, Don Bosco himself seems to be aware that his actions may be seen in a homoerotic light [referring to himself in the third person]: "Ti manifesto adesso un timore (...), temo che qualcuno dei nostri abbia ad interpretar male l'affezione che don Bosco ha avuto per i giovani, e che dal mio modo di confessarli vicino vicino, si lasci trasportare da troppa sensualità verso di loro, e pretenda poi giustificarsi col dire che don Bosco faceva lo stesso, sia quando loro parlava in segreto, sia quando li confessava. So che qualcuno si lascia guadagnare dal cuore, e ne temo pericoli e danni spirituali." (I will reveal to you now a fear . . . I fear that one of ours may come to misinterpret the affection that Don Bosco had for the young, and from the way that I received their confession - really, really close - and may let himself get carried away with too much sensuality towards them, and then pretend to justify himself by saying that Don Bosco did the same, be it when he spoke to them in secret, be it when he received their confession. I know that one can be conquered by way of the heart, and I fear dangers, and spiritual damage.) This comment has led historian Giovanni Dall'orto to suggest that Don Bosco himself felt he had gotten a bit closer to his protegees that perhaps he should have.

Despite his own opinion that Don Bosco never gave free rein to his alleged desires for the boys around him, Dall'orto reports that many years after having published his research on the topic, h was approached by a resident of Torino who explained his own distaste - and that of his family - for the Church by the fact that his grandfather had been a pupil of Don Bosco and had been sexually molested by him. From that, he claimed, came his hate of an institution which had dared to make a child molester into a saint.

• Sources for this section:
  • Paul Pennings, "Don Bosco breathes his last. The scenario of Catholic social clubs in the Fifties and Sixties". In Among men, among women, Amsterdam 1983, pp. 166-175 & 598-599.
  • Stephan Sanders,A phenomenon's bankrupcy; Don Bosco and the question of coeducation. Ibidem, pp. 159-165 e 602-603.
  • Giovanni Dall'orto, in Who's who in gay and lesbian history, (ed. Robert Aldrich e Garry Wotherspoon), vol. 1; and [3]

Haiduc 01:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

• Further to the above: I am surprised that the material has been removed without specific reasons. Any claim of npov must obviously be supported by reasoning, otherwise anybody could say anything. Haiduc 01:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I removed the text because it wasn't NPOV. I suggest you start a page on homosexuality in the church if you want to discuss the issue.evrik 16:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with the removal of the above text because it is too thin on actual evidence to make a case. It's just hearsay and supposition really - Dall'orto even supports his claim by handwriting analysis for god's sake. To put a big block of detailed text like this in the article gives this speculation more weight than it deserves. Perhaps just one sentence may be justified but not this. --Spondoolicks 10:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

• • It is not our role to sit in judgement on the published work of bona fide historians and decide whom to include and whom to exclude. If the evidence had been too thin to make a case then presumably three separate historians would not have written on it, or if they had, no one would have published it. Obviously this material has repeatedly withstood peer review. I am not averse to reducing the material somewhat, but it is clear that we owe our readers something more than an adulatory orthodox piece on a man who seems to have been quite a bit more complex. Haiduc 12:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

• • • Yes, it is a bit hagiographic at the moment (unsurprisingly), and it needs tidying up as well. As to accepting the work of scholars I would say we should not just blindly put in anything. There are some scholarly articles which establish a solid narrative, based on pulling together strong facts and evidence, which has a high probability of being true. Sometimes however, the truth is harder to pin down and there are plenty of perfectly good articles presenting a theory on what might be true, of course giving as much back up to the theory as possible based on the available evidence. This second type should be used with caution when it comes to encyclopedias - this is not the best place for speculation.

I would accept the following:

"Perhaps inevitably given his work with boys and young men, Bosco has been the subject of speculation about whether or not he had homosexual paedophile tendencies. Those who put forward this theory, such as Giovanni Dall'orto, point to his tenderness towards boys, in contrast to the harshness of most schools of the time, and interpret a number of statements by Bosco and others in support of this theory. (link to Dall'orto article)

In a comment made shortly before his death, Don Bosco himself seems to be aware that his actions may be seen in a homoerotic light [referring to himself in the third person]: "I will reveal to you now a fear . . . I fear that one of ours may come to misinterpret the affection that Don Bosco had for the young, and from the way that I received their confession - really, really close - and may let himself get carried away with too much sensuality towards them, and then pretend to justify himself by saying that Don Bosco did the same, be it when he spoke to them in secret, be it when he received their confession. I know that one can be conquered by way of the heart, and I fear dangers, and spiritual damage."

This still seems a bit longer than it should be but at least it seems more NPOV. The speculative nature of this means it should not be given too much emphasis in the article in comparison with the known facts of his life and works. What do you reckon? --Spondoolicks 16:00, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that is an eminently reasonable proposal. I will only suggest a couple of minor edits (see below) and I would also like to preserve the comment by Cafasso, quite possibly elsewhere in the article, because it adds depth to his character - though not necessarily related to this issue. On a separate note, is it appropriate to use an iconic image for the box or should we rather use one of the more secular pictures - this is beginning to look like a piece of out an ecclesiastical publication.

"Perhaps inevitably given his work with boys and young men, Bosco has been the subject of speculation about whether or not he had sublimated pederastic tendencies. Those who put forward this theory, such as Giovanni Dall'orto, point to his tenderness towards boys, in contrast to the harshness of most schools of the time, and interpret a number of statements by Bosco and others in support of this theory. (link to Dall'orto article)

In a comment made shortly before his death, Don Bosco himself seems to be aware that his actions may be seen in a homoerotic light [referring to himself in the third person]: "I will reveal to you now a fear . . . I fear that one of ours may come to misinterpret the affection that Don Bosco had for the young, and from the way that I received their confession - really, really close - and may let himself get carried away with too much sensuality towards them, and then pretend to justify himself by saying that Don Bosco did the same, be it when he spoke to them in secret, be it when he received their confession. I know that one can be conquered by way of the heart, and I fear dangers, and spiritual harm." Haiduc 22:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

• An alternate suggestion. What about creating a page on this subject related to this page Homosexuality and Christianity? evrik 23:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It is against Wikipedia rules to break out contentious topics and remove them to separate, purpose-made articles. I will post the version elaborated here, it seems to address a number of concerns. Haiduc 23:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry, I don't agree to the text. It is not NPOV and it advances a specific agenda. Take it elsewhere, but it doesn't belong on this page. evrik 23:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

If you don't agree to the text you have several options:

• Discuss on this page how it is POV. Cited quotations of authors who present their own opinion are not POV if they clearly present the statement as being a publiched scholar's opinion. If the opinions are not stated in an NPOV way, how can they be restated fairly?
• Counter claims with citations discounting the opinions, or present an opposing view. In this case, the original text you do not agree to would remain, and you would be adding additional text to balance the opinion.
• Show how the cited work is the result of such bad sholarship and/or such an extreme fringe view that it deseves little or no mention in the article. To do this, you have to show that the author(s) are not part of any recognized peer review, they publish POV material written for political purposes, etc...

It is NOT enough to just say "It is not NPOV and it advances a specific agenda". The question is, can the opinions be framed in such a way that their sources are clear, and are balanced by contrasting opinions. Someone could remove the entire article by saying it is POV because it presents the opinion of the Catholic Church that Bosco was a Saint. Certainly the Church has their own specific agenda as well. Without the opinions and agenda of the Catholic Church, this article wouldn't have much reason to exist. -- Samuel Wantman 01:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep

Request for page protection

The single biggest refence work is in Italian. Without better documentation, this addition is not substantial enough to justify including. Most of the text come from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Calling a saint a pederast requires more proof. It is not |NPOV. I am asking that the page be locked until something gets worked out. evrik 03:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• What is surprising about an Italian historian investigating an Italian priest?! The fact that the text came from the Catholic Encyclopedia is a troubling revelation, in that we have every reason to believe that to not be an unbiased source. As far as a saint being a pederast, first of all that is not necessarily what Dall'Orto is saying, and, secondly, even if he was a pederast, why should that disqualify him from being a saint?! I must also point out that you have engaged in three reverts of the page within a very short period, and that your last edit was deceptively labeled. It was not minor, and the gist of it was a revert, not a request for protection. Please do not try to obfuscate you actions here. Haiduc 03:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, I was changing the page because there was no consensus. One person does half-heartedly saying it's okay and other disputing the NPOV status is not enough. Ummm... rather than descend into an edit war, I went ahead and asked for the page to be protected. I still don't think you have enough substantial printed reference material to justify your claims. evrik 04:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    • What would you consider "substantial" enough to support these claims? The cites look pretty solid to me, and from what Babelfish can tell me about the Dall'Orto bio (not a ton) it appears to cite numerous other sources. I don't think it's unfair to include the fact that this speculation exists in the scholarly world, because it does seem to exist. (ESkog)^(Talk) 13:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Evrik, There is no need for page protection when people are discussing things and the converstion is civil. Here is the disputed section:

==Analysis of his character and motivations==

Perhaps inevitably given his work with boys and young men, Bosco has been the subject of speculation about whether or not he had sublimated pederastic tendencies. Those who put forward this theory, such as Giovanni Dall'Orto, point to his tenderness towards boys, in contrast to the harshness of most schools of the time, and interpret a number of statements by Bosco and others in support of this theory.

In a comment made shortly before his death, Don Bosco himself seems to be aware that his actions may be seen in a homoerotic light [referring to himself in the third person]: "I will reveal to you now a fear . . . I fear that one of ours may come to misinterpret the affection that Don Bosco had for the young, and from the way that I received their confession - really, really close - and may let himself get carried away with too much sensuality towards them, and then pretend to justify himself by saying that Don Bosco did the same, be it when he spoke to them in secret, be it when he received their confession. I know that one can be conquered by way of the heart, and I fear dangers, and spiritual harm." Biography by Dall'Orto

It looks like all the information in these two paragraphs comes from the citation which is in Italian. Are you questioning whether the translation fairly represents the original, whether Dall'Orto is a reputable scholar, or whether the claims are unbalanced or out of context? Often, an effective way to handle this kind of NPOV dispute is not to remove the text, but to counter the claim with another citation that challenges the first opinion. It seems that the citation does not claim anything that Don Bosco himself did not imply. It says, "Bosco has been the subject of speculation about whether or not he had sublimated pederastic tendencies", which I am assuming is the most problematic sentence. If Dall'Orto is a good citation, and Dall'Orto speculates about pederastic tendencies, then this would be an NPOV sentence. Resolving this requires everyone to talk specifically about the text and the citations. -- Samuel Wantman 07:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)