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Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerks: Dougweller (Talk) & X! (Talk) Drafting arbitrators: SirFozzie (Talk) & Elen of the Roads (Talk)

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

Motion by Martin Hogbin

1) That the accusations of gross incivility, personal attacks, and edit warring against one editor in particular be dismissed.

This argument has lasted nearly three years now and has got a little heated at times with most editors losing their temper at times and making over-the-top remarks. That one or more editors might have briefly overstepped the mark in nearly three years of heated argument should not make an arbitration case.

The accusation of a SPA is a laughable case of wikilawyering and the RfC ended in no action of any kind. This is clearly an attempt by the filing party to discredit editors who disagree with him and should be recognised by the arbitrators as such and dismissed. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:18, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't think we're in a position to dismiss any of the case at this time. However, the parties can rest assured that we rarely base a finding or sanction on isolated remarks or losses of temper, but rather only on a consistent or serious pattern of misconduct. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Brad has it right. We will wait to see what evidence is provided to substantiate complaints before considering any claims. SirFozzie (talk) 07:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I support the motion (and agree with the supporting arguments), full heartedly. Richard Gill (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence concerning Glkanter has been posted now. I trust the arbitrators can decide for themselves whether this is a laughable case of wikilawyering, or whether accusing me of wikilawyering is a laughable attempt to discredit me. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:43, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

The arbitrators are of course correct that the motion is premature before the evidence is posted and examined. But from my position as an observer of the disputes, the assertion that one person is responsible for the lack of progress on the article seems absurd. I trust evidence will be presented to offset that claim and put it in perspective. Woonpton (talk) 21:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Motion by Martin Hogbin

That the editors who have shown a degree of long-term page ownership should be prevented from exerting undue control over the article.

Rick Block, Glopk, and later Nijdam have exerted a disproportionate level of control over the page content despite numerous objections from a total of 12 registered editors and 10 different IP addresses. Over the same time 5 registered editors (including those named above) and two IP addresses have shown support for Rick's position. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Although really a proposed remedy not a motion, it can stay here for now. If you want to create a section of proposals, you can move it yourself. This is the sort of thing that Arbcom will want to look at as one potential way forward - although naturally one always hopes it won't come to sanctioning editors who believe they are acting for the best, and who should be able to conform to Wikipedia norms for best practice.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

As it comes to facts, there isn't such thing as proportion and disproportion. It is a pity that a lot of people, including Wikipedia editors do not understand the issue, and yet consider themselves as experts on the matter. At least Rick Block, Glopk and myself, we know what we're talking about. Nijdam (talk) 22:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think Nijdam refers to what he considers Truths, not to verifable facts. I also had to learn the distinction, the hard way. Everybody believes they know what they're talking about. Not everybody sees it the same way. Most importantly, reliables sources don't see it the same way. See WP:Truth. Richard Gill (talk) 09:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

T'row da bums out! Glkanter (talk) 23:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the comment Martin makes in support of his motion. This has been my experience and the experience of others. Voluntary restraint on the part of those editors would be a good solution. Richard Gill (talk) 09:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you a party??Nijdam (talk) 09:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean, should I voluntarily restrain myself? Yes, I should. Difficult, because I'm quite addicted to my daily shot of MHP. So someone should tie me down. Richard Gill (talk) 16:52, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What is the evidence on which this claim is based (diffs, please)? -- Rick Block (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Questions to the parties

Question to GLKanter

In section 1.4 of your evidence, you post a diff of you saying the same thing four times as proof that Rick Block is editing tendentiously. I cannot figure out why you have done this. Could you explain please.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for asking, as I was not aware that 1.4 was ambiguous.

The objective of 1.4 is to show that Rick Block was choosing the worst parts of my diffs, and that only by taking them out of context, he makes me look like a bad guy. So the section begins with me copying Rick Block's exact posting. That's actually Rick Block saying that Glkanter edits tendentiously, using a small portion of my actual diff.

Then, I show the entire diff, which is meant to show that rather than editing tendentiously, I had made a very thoughtful post.

Later in a subsequent section, I realized Rick Block had actually abridged the quote he used, eliminating the first words from:

"My viewpoint is, 'There is no possible way I am wrong about this'."

and making it:

"There is no possible way I am wrong about this"

It's my considered opinion, from interacting with Rick Block for 2+ years, that he did that truncating in order to make me look bad, rather than to present the truth for the benefit of the arbitrators. It's consistent with the Gamesmanship and intellectual dishonesty I have accused Rick Block of perpetrating all along. He's been doing this since before I joined the MHP discussions, but unlike nearly every other editor who was stifled by Rick Block, I decided to stick it out, and state what I believe he is doing. Glkanter (talk) 23:10, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. So you did repost that thoughtful post verbatim in several places (which appears to be Rick Block's key point), but you feel that doing so was not tendentious. I'm not sure I see a difference between 'I'm right' and 'my viewpoint is that I'm right', but you obviously do. Could you perhaps explain. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the 4 postings of the same diff were over a period of 2 years, addressed to 4 different editors, and on 4 different pages. I'm trying to show to each new audience of editors that I am a thoughtful person, who is disagreeing with Rick Block, why I am still disagreeing after all this time, and that I am not some grandstanding gadfly, regardless of what Rick Block may have been posting about me that day on that page.

As far as the difference in the actual quote and the modified quote goes, I can't coerce you to see things as I see them. I see no reason other than 'deception' for Rick Block to alter the quote in the first place. Why do *you* think he did that? I don't think altering quotes is either a standard practice, or a good practice. In any case, it's not something I would do. Glkanter (talk) 23:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's a very real expectation that Rick Block would indicate that a portion of a sentence from my direct quote is missing, via the inclusion of ellipses. He should have, at a minimum, made it:

"... 'There is no possible way I am wrong about this'."

Of course, he shouldn't have altered my actual quote at all. I can't explain why Rick Block didn't follow this convention. Other than as a means of deception. It's just more of the same intellectual dishonesty on Rick Block's part that I have been subjected to for over 2+ years.

You should have seen the wrath of God he brought down on me the *first* time I accused him of ownership, back in February, 2009, I believe. He got some buddies from the Wikipedia Mathematics group to explain how I simply didn't understand probability. Of course, I was just saying the same thing as countless reliable sources, but *I* was uniquely stupid. And wrong. And disruptive. Automatically. That was back when we had endless arguments about the math, and Rick Block, I believe created a talk page exclusively for arguing the math. Which is wrong in *so* many Wikipedia ways. But what did I know? I was the newby, and he's an admin. And everybody else was going along. He's quoting chapter and verse about Wikipedia policy every time I disagreed with him, but that little thing about reliable sources gets overlooked somehow. It's all still there on my user page. Glkanter (talk) 08:04, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Rick Block

Proposed principles

Wikipedia is not a battleground

1) talk:Monty Hall problem is not the place to argue about The Truth concerning the Monty Hall problem. The subpage Talk:Monty Hall problem/Arguments was created as a place for editors to discuss mathematical issues underlying the Monty Hall problem if they feel the need to do this. Discussions on the talk page itself should be restricted to proposed changes to the article based on what reliable sources say.

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Comment by parties:

If there is a side that pushes for The Truth in this article it is that of Rick, Glopk, and Nijdam. I have long tried to argue that we can cover the subject in the most appropriate way for our readers without having to make a firm decision on 'The Truth'. We can do this by having a first part where the problem is explained simply and clearly and 'The Truth' is temporarily put on hold in the interest of clarity. After that the subject can be fully discussed in a detailed and scholarly way. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I recall being told off by Rick Block for discussing issues of Mathematical Truth on user talk pages rather than on the article's own talk page. I am not a diff warrior so I'm not going to search for it. And when I propsoe a change on the talk page I have to support the proposal ... and that is where content comes in again.

And what if the editors disagree what the reliable sources say? Sometimes it could be necessary to take some content or context into account, to determine what they are saying. e.g. an article in a mathematics education journal, or an article in a mathematics research journal ... might require some professional background knowledge to read sensibly. Richard Gill (talk) 11:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Happily there are reliable sources that stand up for the truth. No need for a battle, let the sources speak And no leaving out a source because its message is not understood and hence not welcomed. Nijdam (talk) 20:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Problem imo: The lemma, as it is, does not present the point. To the detriment of the reader. Connections remain unclear, violating the logic. The point is that "better knowledge" – than the pure average probability to win by switching of 2/3 – just depends on additional underlying assumptions, and joining additional information, and not on the "numbers of the doors" only (see Nijdam's endless urn-problem-discussions). It depends on the "characteristics" of the doors (door selected, door opened by the host, door offered to switch on), and possible (additional) assumptions to be made. And this should be clearly accessible to the reader. Not "nothing but maths obviously can guarantee available additional accurateness and closeness". Actually everything is hidden behind the "mathematical truth". Nothing but question marks for the reader. Of course the article should show the ability of qualified conditional probability also. And, casus belli, foremost it is not meant to be just only a textbook. Gerhardvalentin (talk) 09:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Core content policies

2) No original research, Verifiability, and Neutral point of view are fundamental content policies. Whether editors agree with what reliable sources say has no relevance to the editing process.

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There is no dispute that No original research, Verifiability, and Neutral point of view are fundamental content policies but, unfortunately, these policies do not help us resolve this dispute; everybody claims to have WP policy on their side. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Purpose of an article talk page

3) The purpose of an article talk page is to discuss changes to the article, not to advance one's own opinions about the topic of the article.

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Role of the Arbitration Committee

4) It is not the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle good-faith content disputes among editors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It is not the role of the committee to rule on content disputes. Subtle difference, may or may not be significant. Also note AGK's comment below --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I do not doubt good-faith of Martin Hogbin, the pitiful point is, he doesn't fully understand the point of discussion. Nijdam (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is very generous of you not to doubt my good faith. That is the way you have been making your points throughout this discussion, by attacking the speaker rather than what they say. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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I think the issue here is that this stopped being a good-faith content dispute a long time ago. AGK [•] 12:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed findings of fact

Glkanter has engaged in disruptive behavior

1) Glkanter has engaged in a wide range of disruptive behavior, including treating Wikipedia as a battleground, edit warring, and repeated incivility and personal attacks.

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Comment by parties:

Glkanter has promoted his opinion here just like all other editors. His views are broadly representative of a majority of editors. Martin Hogbin (talk)

This comment seems completely unresponsive to the proposed finding of fact. -- Rick Block (talk) 21:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Promoting the opinion of the majority of editors against a small but persistent minority is not disruptive behaviour. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Many editors have misused the MHP talk page

2) Rather than use the talk page to discuss proposed changes to the article, many editors have used talk:Monty Hall problem to argue about the mathematics of the problem or that what various sources say is wrong. Although this hasn't directly affected the content of the article, it has had the effect of disrupting discussions about changes to the article content.

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Comment by parties:

These discussions have led to hard-fought but positive changes regarding content and scope and style of the article. Those who wish the article frozen in its state of several years ago are very wiki-skilled in playing the rules to keep it that way. But sure, I'm as bad a guy as anyone else, have a biological need not just to be right but to convince others I'm right too. We need more women editors on the page. Richard Gill (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion is that they were probably once useful but have steadily became circular. Indeed, they became markedly disruptive toward the end: those discussion about the mathematics of the MHP helped affirm to every editor that the sources were wrong, and the result was that compromise became impossible. AGK [•] 12:55, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hardly know of any "wrong" sources! The few authors who really made a mistake corrected it later. Quite a few disagree. And some present very different solutions alongside one another, without apparently seeing a need to compare them or choose between them. There is a minority of sources which are dogmatic, like some editors. If you read the literature, you'll find that many other writers from the same field are highly critical of the dogmatic guys. Lots of excellent mathematicians slammed Morgan et al. and defended Marilyn Vos Savant. The editors who can't compromise are those who have a fixed and extreme point of view: "my solution is RIGHT the other is WRONG". Of course the critical literature needs to be referred to. There are some valid points in it. But presently the paper is biased to their point of view right from the start. Note: mathematics can never tell you what you *must* do. It does not carry moral authority or legal authority. It can only advise you what it might be *wise* to do, and the wisdom can be explained. And one may choose to ignore it. Richard Gill (talk) 13:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The way you present the conflict gives the wrong impression. For instance I (who I suspect you to refer to) do not claim something like "my solution is right, etc." I'm claiming (sourced!), and you agreed with me, that the so called simple solution is not a correct solution to the common MHP. And the article should make this clear. Any other way of thinking about the MHP, be my guest, as long as it is sourced and correct. Nijdam (talk) 21:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with you that what you call "the common MHP" is the common MHP. Sourced. The popular literature, the psychology literature, the economics literature is not inferior to the literature in which Bayes theorem is taught to poor mathematics students. Anyway, maths does not tell how you must make decisions, it only advises you what might be wise. Please source the reasoning for must if you can. Richard Gill (talk) 15:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Glkanter topic banned

1) Glkanter is indefinitely prohibited from (i) editing Monty Hall problem and any related pages, broadly construed, and their talk pages; (ii) participating in any process broadly construed on Wikipedia particularly affecting these articles; and (iii) initiating or participating in any discussion substantially relating to these articles anywhere on Wikipedia, even if the discussion also involves another issue or issues.

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This would be an outrageously disproportionate remedy even if any sanction against Glkanter were justified, which it is not. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Martin. Just about everyone has been misbehaving themselves. Richard Gill (talk) 14:01, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Personal attacks on Glkanter's user and talk pages

2) Personal attacks ~~archived~~proudly displayed on Glkanter's user and talk pages will be deleted. Any similar use of these pages in the future to disparage other editors will result in a 3 month site ban for the first offense and a permanent site ban for any subsequent offense.

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That seems a little petty to me. If it's in the archives, it's gone: out of sight then out of mind. AGK [•] 12:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Monty Hall problem article placed on article probation

3) Monty Hall problem and its talk page are subject to the following terms of article probation:

Any editor may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, and arguing about the math of the problem without reference to sources (after being warned that the talk page is not the place for such arguments).
- Sanctions imposed may include restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors, bans from editing the Monty Hall problem page and/or closely related topics, blocks of up to 1 week in length, or any other measures the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
- For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions (note: enforcing this provision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute).
Sanctions imposed under this provision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.
Administrators are not to reverse such sanctions without either (1) approval by the imposing administrator, or without (2) community consensus or Committee approval to do so.
All sanctions imposed are to be logged at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Monty Hall problem article probation/Log of sanctions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Something that the committee is likely to look at in some form or another. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I admit this might be overkill. However, I really don't see a sensible alternative since the parties involved don't seem to be willing to stop arguing about the math. -- Rick Block (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But you are one of the parties, Rick, and you have often argued about the maths. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried for nearly two years to keep the discussion focused on what sources say [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] etc etc, and even on the Arguments page [9] [10]-- Rick Block (talk) 00:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposals by User: Richard Gill

Proposed principles

2/3 : 1/3 (popular: academic)

1) There are two literatures on MHP, two readerships on wikipedia. Roughly speaking: "popular" and "academic". The first 2/3 of the article should be written for and/or by the people (the Great Unwashed, in Glkanter's words), the last 1/3 should be written for and/or by the High Priests and novice-priests.

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We're not talking about rocket science here. It's high school level probability. Between Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable and WP:NPOV we have all the guidance we need. -- Rick Block (talk) 06:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice quote. That's what the judge said in the Sally Clark case. Refusing to have evidence presented in person by the president of the Royal Statistical Society. That together with the arrogance of Sir Roy Meadows (MD) killed her. Richard Gill (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I sincerely hope yuo do not mean by popular literature, the incorrect literature, deceiving the readers. Nijdam (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed remedies

2/3 : 1/3 (refreshment of editors)

1) Roughly 2/3 of the editors are quarrelsome, proprietary, uncompromising. Roughly 1/3 are modest, sensible. Let Richard Gill, Rick Block, Glkanter, Glopk, Nijdam go and edit articles on other subjects for a few months; let Gerhard Valentin, Martin Hogbin and Kmhkmh do some unhindered editing according to Principle 1). Get some more editors involved. Preferably women.

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'Quarrelsome' and 'uncompromising' when standing up to Gamesmanship, Ownership, and Wikilawyering is no shame, and shouldn't be 'punished'. I have no idea what 'proprietary' is meant to convey in this instance. Glkanter (talk) 04:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proprietary meant having ownership-issues (you know who I mean). BTW a "temporary page ban" is not meant by me as a punishment, see it as an honour. Your standing up against Gamesmanship, Ownership, and Wikilawyering deserves a medal (I can even give you one, as president of the Dutch statistical society). Richard Gill (talk) 09:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have argued about language before. I believe a 'ban' is a 'ban'. And I believe I've done nothing to warrant a ban on discussing or editing the MHP (or anything on Wikipedia). Maybe you could explain how your 'medal of honour' would affect Glkanter differently than the 'behavioual sanctions' Rick Block proposed? "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck... maybe it *is* a duck." Glkanter (talk) 11:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Voluntary is of course better than enforced! Take a break. Do some work for wikipedia on some different topics. Make some friends and have fun, instead of making enemies and getting all stressed out. The proposal is that 2/3 of editors quit MHP for a while. Including the ones who you and I believe have ownership issues. Richard Gill (talk) 15:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Non-workshop question moved to case talk page. (X! · talk) · @262 · 05:17, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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@@ Line 322: / Line 322: @@
 ::We're not talking about rocket science here.  It's high school level probability.  Between [[Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable]] and [[WP:NPOV]] we have all the guidance we need. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 06:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 ::: Nice quote. That's what the judge said in the [[Sally Clark]] case. Refusing to have evidence presented in person by the president of the [[Royal Statistical Society]]. That together with the arrogance of Sir [[Roy Meadows]] (MD) killed her. [[User:Gill110951|Richard Gill]] ([[User talk:Gill110951|talk]]) 09:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
+::I sincerely hope yuo do not mean by popular literature, the incorrect literature, deceiving the readers. [[User:Nijdam|Nijdam]] ([[User talk:Nijdam|talk]]) 20:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
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