User talk:Sean.hoyland

Thanks for your part in cleaning up after apparent sock

Hi, Sean. Just wanted to say that I noticed that you were one of several people who picked up after our drive-by sock friend I'll call "Esc-apist", yesterday. I think everyone who edits in the I/P area should have a checkuser run against them automatically every week or so. Anyway, it was heartening to see people take up that responsibility: Socks can't be permitted to gain from their behavior, to have their edits "stick", imo, regardless of their POV. What would really impress me, though, would be to see either "side" reverting obvious sock edits that were made in support of their own preferred POV. I'd do that, if I saw it, I hope, as I'm sure you would, too. Anyway, thanks again.  – OhioStandard (talk) 10:55, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to see various measures to prevent sockpuppetry and other disruption in the topic area including regular checkuser runs, a minimum number of edits threshold before people can edit in the topic area, a requirement to formally agree to abide by the rules (or the introduction of any other measures shown by Dan Ariely's excellent and highly entertaining studies on dishonesty etc to help reduce problematic behavior), probable socks being reverted and blocked on sight (i.e. guilty until proven innocent), topic banning editors whose content edits demonstrably and consistently fail to comply with NPOV, topic banning editors who can be shown to repeatedly employ biased sampling/falsification/misrepresentation of information from sources, and any other measures that might work...basically whatever it takes. None of that will happen of course. There is an unhealthy and corrosive acceptance of sockpuppetry. I've lost count of the number of times people have flat out lied to me when asked whether they are a sockpuppet. I blame the parents. Sean.hoyland - talk 20:55, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes; I also contribute sporadically to a help forum for the Ubuntu linux operating system, where everyone is asked, at their option, to formally agree to an behavioral pledge, and where expectations from the get-go were very different than they are here. The experience of contributing there, in terms of the interactions one has with others, is so much more pleasant than here. The argument that we have to tolerate social deviants (socks, liars, POV zealots, aggressive behavior, etc.) here because we need their contributions for so large and complex a project is nonsense: I've never used an operating system that's more stable, more of a pleasure to use, as broad in its features, as secure from viruses and such, or that receives needed updates so regularly and easily.

I'm saying that I read your Dan Ariely paper on Dishonesty in Everyday Life, in other words, and I agree with your characterization of it. Thanks for making me aware of him; I'll probably read more. In our present context, I don't blame the literal parents of our problematic editors as much as I do the figurative parent(s) of Wikipedia. Jimmy could certainly have established a healthier culture here, initially, and still could bring it to good health if he knew how (or cared enough to learn how) and wanted to. It's long been my conclusion that he's probably deficient in the "wanting to" department.

Do you have any thoughts on the identity of our friend, btw? It was someone who had Nableezy's (or possibly Roscelese's) talk page watchlisted, and I'm inclined to suspect a recently topic-banned editor who was prolific in the area before her ban and who has numerous ethical breaches and (as I read in her former allies' talk pages, anyway) socking adventures to her (dis)credit. Think an SPI is appropriate? E-mail consultation on this issue is welcome; I check it daily. I'd be glad to present the details to you, since I believe you're somewhat more familiar with the dramatis personae in the I/P area than I am. Cheers,  – OhioStandard (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't heard of Dan Ariely either until User:AgadaUrbanit told me about him. I'm not sure who the sockpuppet is. In cases like this I'm sometimes tempted to file an Arbitration Enforcement report test case that would say something like...

This is a test case. Sockpuppetry and topic-ban/block evasion in the I-P topic area are examples of failing to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior and the normal editorial process. They are therefore presumably within scope of the discretionary sanctions. Sockpuppetry is a persistently destabilizing influence on the I-P topic area and yet the topic area is largely unprotected from its negative effects. An obvious sock is obvious but the parent "sockmaster" account often isn't known which precludes filing an SPI report. So, we have what looks like an obvious sock editing in the I-P topic area and apparently no mechanism to deal with them, hence this AE report. I've filed this case because I want to see whether any admins will act to protect the topic area from a probable sockpuppet or not. If not I would like to know what should happen in a case like this. I'm not concerned with the nature of the edits, only with the highly probable case that in making the edits, any edits, the editor is violating the WP:SOCK policy.

...with diffs to demonstrate prior knowledge of wiki editing etc. Maybe one day I'll try that. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this is a brilliant and wholly appropriate idea. People have evidently begun creating accounts in a serial fashion, using them only for a day or two, without much or any talk-page use to avoid comparisons of writing style and such to other, presumably puppetmaster accounts. Wikipedia really has no defense against this, except for the tedious process of manually reverting probable socks on sight, which burns opponents re 1rr restrictions and runs the risk, also, of one being accused of biting newcomers. I'd be wholly in favor of giving this a go in this case, and would happily support the attempt at the appropriate wp:ae page. What do you say?  – OhioStandard (talk) 06:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up

Just trying to provide links to images and reference some stuff. Will stop until I see the admin resolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xiatica (talk • contribs) 12:28, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

That site has some really excellent paintings e.g. (this Nolan) that I've not seen before hence my dilemma... :) I'm never quite sure what to do in these circumstances. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks for the reminder. I'll remember to contribute to the talk pages from now on. Best regards, Matthias Lightbane (talk) 07:05, 9 May 2011 (UTC)