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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Jaakobou[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 23:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions :
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. 01:05, 13 November 2015 Discussing the real world conflict
  2. 12:13, 12 November 2015 Discussing the real world conflict
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 
  1. 04:16, 8 March 2012 banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

Didn't feel like adding every diff, but pretty much every edit made by the user since October 30th has been a violation of the topic ban. And add the stealth canvassing to a discussion opened in violation of the ban.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 


Discussion concerning Jaakobou[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Jaakobou[edit]

This complaint is with no merit and should be quickly dismissed. I requested a review of a flaw in how policy is implemented.[106] Following that suggestion to go to WP:UP, I prepared text and pinged multiple admins.[107] I Listened to feedback as well.[108][109] Discussion on UP was very slow and with little participation, thus I contacted French, who have some recent knowledge on militancy. I have no special reason to think they support Israel or my preferred addition to the polemics policy -- which you can see does not mention Israel:

  • " Poetic militancy in support of or promoting violent acts, quotes and paraphrases to raise the spirit of fight and other forms of political militant activism are not permitted." (on user-pages)

I did mention that there are a lot of stabbing attacks in Israel and changing clarifying the policy is not going to hurt the project. If there is real belief on Arbcom that by mentioning real-world casualties of terrorism in Israel I have crossed the line, I apologize. I've made a considerable effort to make the matter general.

Side note: Nableezy (talk · contribs) has a bit of a history of grinding[110] axes with those "he is disallowed from naming".[111] I actually believe he's in violation of WP:POLEMIC as well, keeping a list of wiki-enemies on his user-page. I hope that others who comment on this request will disclose any COI which they might have. JaakobouChalk Talk 00:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

re: @Serialjoepsycho:

I contacted the French wikiproject and a few contributors on the article for the recent Paris attack. I did so due to low participation rates (RfC) and assuming they are aware of what "militancy" means nowadays. I had no reason to did not think they would favor my preferred policy amendments and I wanted to get the discussion going. I don't endorse a "let's count votes" mentality. I think they can add insight to the discussion. Perhaps persuade the parties of point a or b or raise a new point or new suggestion as well. In my process, I have contacted for input admins who have disagreed with me as well.[112] I do apologize for losing my patience (after three days and more of this) and using emails. That wasn't a good idea was a bad idea and I will refrain from doing that. JaakobouChalk Talk 02:00, 15 November 2015 (UTC) clearer JaakobouChalk Talk 02:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC) + note, links, rephrase. JaakobouChalk Talk 02:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
  • re to[113]:
    • For some reason, maybe "ideological struggle", maybe not, two prominent participants' statements do not comply with WP:BARS. On and off-wiki matters have been presented with low degree of truth. This happened as well. I am a firm believer in proper disclosure on these matters. Comments like this show you want a balanced reputable Wikipedia. Not sure why, but this came to my mind as well. I will use that last diff as opportunity to reiterate my apology and acknowledgement of misjudgement in sending out a few emails. We've had very few participants and I got impatient and reached out to a project with some knowledge on the issue presented.JaakobouChalk Talk 12:42, 16 November 2015 (UTC) + JaakobouChalk Talk 12:44, 16 November 2015 (UTC) +balanced reputable Wikipedia JaakobouChalk Talk 13:43, 16 November 2015 (UTC) + JaakobouChalk Talk 13:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC) m JaakobouChalk Talk 13:53, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
re [114]:
"ban over turned"
No. That is a misinterpretation. I asked for a 'review on the way I was herded off'.[115] Meaning, I felt my concerns about pro-stabbing content was mishandled. 'This does not require any review of my contributions, past or present'[116] qualifies my lack of interest in discussing about the ban itself (a comment which was ignored). My first comment in 2015, btw, was to the same admin.[117] Anyway, I found some less busy audience and kept the issue on the wider picture rather than making it user specific. e.g. "I did notice you wanted concrete samples but I am concerned that pointing fingers would end up with comments about how bad/acceptable a/b/c examples are and distract from the idea of establishing a clear no 'mukawama' policy."[118] Yes, wider perspective included mention of propaganda that relates to real-world attacks on Jews, which is in some way connected to the conflict I am topic banned from. I did ping @Timotheus Canens: (a 3rd time), @Foxj:, @Kim Dent-Brown:, @Black Kite:, @Crazycomputers:[119] -- involved admins (including ones who voted to ban me) to see the issue I was raising for discussion. While I can understand the interpretation you made from the word 'review', nowhere in there is a request to have the ban lifted. Also, you are seriously misrepresenting the upfront manner in which I addressed my concerns. There's a plethora of ways to it inappropriately, mine is pretty high on the "up-front". Also, I could care less about poking editors. My concerns are another 3 stabbing attacks that occurred today and this site's mishandling of its own policy where heavy political bias is introduced. This is easily applied to any ISIS, Taliban, Ukrain, Boko Haram, etc. conflict that includes attacks on civilians and writings which advocate for it.
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 22:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I have lost my cool back in 2012. Another four stabbing attacks today as well. The combination of terrorism and circumvention of policy are at the core of how I was herded off wikipedia.
1) Wikipedia is a project to create a neutral encyclopedia. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda...and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited. (Passed 11 to 0)[120]
The fact that anyone would be forced to argue about such things is absurd but Serialjoepsycho and Nishidani think there's nothing wrong with it. Anyway, I'm not asking back. Just that the POLEMIC policy is made abundantly clear for everyone. Either it is allowed for everyone, or disallowed.
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 14:06, 23 November 2015 (UTC) +1 JaakobouChalk Talk 15:06, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

re: @Nishidani:

Proper disclosure, though his user-page was the only a clear standout from the few I looked at, I refrained from bringing it as example to the POLEMICS discussion.[121] "'Even Gandhi would understand the Palestinians’ violence"[122] is one of a few things that caught my eye. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:14, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
I hope that others who comment on this request will disclose any COI which they might have.
p.s. This is irrelevant, but Jerusalem is in Israel. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:38, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
+ Since Nishidani's user page doesn't do any advocacy or use of the term "violence" I must take back every statement made and haven't made that he is not reliable and a long term detriment to the project, working behind the scenes with friends to block people he disagrees with.

Al Rosh HaGanav:

Proper disclosure on my part with this. Apologies for using an old and often humorously contexted proverb regarding the COI/'direct interest' issue, that wasn't helpful. I was taken by surprise seeing Serialjoepsycho showing clear bias (per: "subjugated population") after he repeatedly insisted that no one needs to disclose anything. JaakobouChalk Talk 12:15, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
p.s. Not intending to be rude, but a few statements made by Serialjoepsycho about the Israeli-Arab conflict are incorrect. Sample. Anyway, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Though, I hope wiki user-space advocacy and soapboxing favoring violence would find its way out the door.[123]
Respectfully, JaakobouChalk Talk 14:30, 18 November 2015 (UTC) + link JaakobouChalk Talk 14:36, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
With regard to my last note: polemics about Israel's military, Palestinian violence, and links to, among others, a dead child are not "nothing polemic".
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 14:50, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

re [124] by @EdJohnston::

a) I am not claiming user-space on wikipedia causes violence. Obviously, people with guns don't go around reading wikipedia user-pages. This point is irrelevant.
b) I asked about bringing this to ARBCOM[125], but was answered that this type of material "is already prohibited"[126]
c) Like I mentioned to @Callanecc: on their MFD suggestion. It would seem there's always someone reputable to defend policy violations when it comes to a certain small country.
d) 3 adjacent quotes/paraphrases about Jews, Israeli settlers and Zionism at the top of a user-page. One specifically links "sharpen the weapons with which he will secure his victory" against a certain group of people. Shakespeare, it's not.
e) It is: "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups"[127]
f) I have no intention of targeting a specific user or making this an Israel-Arab issue. It is the principle of polemics circumvention.
g) If user-space were to support and/or promote ISIS aggression against Europe, it would be promptly removed. Having to argue about this is an absurdity.
h) More-so when (outside the West-Bank) the wide scale wave of attacks include 80-year-old women (Rishon Lezion, November 2, 2015) and School teachers (Marseille. 11 hours ago) - not given exception, I am refraining from linking. The point in mentioning this not the conflict I'm living, but the general disrepute such activities can bring to the project and the environment that these type of writings creates for writers in already heated areas.
i) ISIS support and songs about how the Paris theatre massacre "scratched the enemy’s face, broke his dreams and stopped his satisfaction with time" could be viewed as "very profound and of great value to us in these revolutionary times."[128] -- but are they "already prohibited" or not?
j) I reiterate my desire is to clarify WP:POLEMIC so that there won't be confusion anymore about what is allowed and what is not.
Big picture: Support and promotion of terrorism against civilians is inappropriate for wikipedia's user-space.
With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 08:23, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

re @Callanecc::

But is it already prohibited? I'm not allowed to talk about it anymore so this is my last. Who will speak for the trees? JaakobouChalk Talk 08:30, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

re @EdJohnston::

Should the policy read: "advocacy related to violent conflicts is fine as long as it is not the direct cause for violence"?
Also this just happened in "subjugated" Tel-Aviv.
Let me know. JaakobouChalk Talk 12:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

re [129] @EdJohnston::

Why are you ignoring every single point I mentioned to you? (sample: [130]) JaakobouChalk Talk 20:42, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
p.s. I won't ignore your note, though. I will refrain from further participation on that RfC. JaakobouChalk Talk 20:44, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

re @Nishidani::

That's not advocacy. - Nishidani 22:09, 20 November 2015
I cannot participate on the RfC and it seems proper to also refrain from further input on this one.
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 23:32, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Is it already prohibited?[edit]

ARBCOM members should Please disclose your view on this. It appears many admins and fellow editors haven't got a clue what POLEMIC is about and these editors apply personal biases and whim (e.g. "unwavering belief in freedom of speech"),[131] lending a hand to systematic bias. If users (mentioned here or not) start supporting "revolutionary" ISIS against "Western colonialists", can they use their Wikipedia user-space to advocate the righteousness of militancy against civilians or not? JaakobouChalk Talk 10:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- "What on Earth does it have to do with Wikipedia, except expressing a political position" [132]
- "I find nothing polemic about either thing" [133]

I immediately disclosed that my motivation for raising the policy issue a second time was related to real world stabbings. To assume this is meant to circumvent the ban on Israel-Arab related matters and/or poke at certain editors; to prevent the conversation, is a horrible case of bureaucratic failure and lack of common sense. Just look at recent "jihadist"[134] discussions in France. Serialjoepsycho disagrees with the policy completely but he, at least initially, felt (rightly so) that "This falls outside of ARBPIA.". He struck through this statement of support only following our discussion about whether it is OK or not to post a notice on Wikipedia project France. Btw, I did contribute here and there to Wikipedia in the time passed. Only without logging in and outside the scope of the ban. I wanted to address the policy issue up front. There's nothing wrong with that. The opposite is true. JaakobouChalk Talk 19:47, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Serialjoepsycho 2[edit]

This falls outside of ARBPIA. While the language used is nonsensical it does nothing to specially target the Israel Arab topic area. Poetic Militancy could just as easily target the Ukraine insurgency and it's supporters.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

This is stretching broadly construed far beyond intent. AE is not meant as a sword against your enemies. The subject Poetic militancy. It's core focus is not using Wikipedia to promote and support the violence of groups that have in someway been labeled terrorist. Or more specifically not using wikipedia to soapbox. This would target you nableezy and the soapboxing userbox that you have on your user page. That's why we are here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
While I agree that this should not fall under WP:ARBPIA or more specifically discretionary sanctions should not be used to handle this. However noting Jaakobou comments I don't wish them walking away thinking their actions were appropriate. They contacted Wikiproject France [[135]] due to the recent terrorist attacks in Paris hoping to find editors favorable to their position. In addition they emailed other users [136] to the discussion. These are very clear violations of WP:CANVASS.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 01:33, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Jaakobou, you don't have to explain yourself to me. I really don't care. If you didn't know the canvassing policy before that's fine. You've been made aware of it now. It's unacceptable. WP:Canvass. Contacting wikiproject France would never be appropriate for this discussion. You can't target them at all period. Not because you think they will have a favorable opinion. You can not target them because you think will have some special insight because they were attacked by terrorists yesterday. WP:CANVASS explains how to do an appropriate notification. You can get impatient and seek further comment but with the appropriate notification.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Jaakobou, that's not a COI. There's nothing to disclose.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:25, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Honestly I still don't feel should be held under WP:ARBPIA. I feel this is more of a matter for ANI. However this topic area is increasingly becoming the sole focus of the conversation. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Jaakobou, Clear bias? That's asinine. Palestine territories are a subjugated population. They have been under military occupation since 1967. They have been under the control of Israel since that time and have not been allowed to practice their right to self determination.

Further I don't have a conflict of interest. You suggesting that I do brings up a real question of competency. Competence is required here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

This is actually becoming pure jackassery at this point. This is not a place to discuss the Palestine-Israel conflict, you are barred from doing so, and your passive aggressive attempts at doing so with out violating that are unclear anyway. I'm some how so wrong but it's not clear what I'm wrong on. Am I wrong that they are under military occupation? Am I wrong that they have been unable to practice their right to self determination? Showing that they have limited self government proves neither wrong, nor does it suggest either is wrong. I would respond to your other comments but like the comments I've already responded to they seem purposeless.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • At this point I just need to walk away. The discussion of issue is about a Wikipedia policy. Even if someone is topic banned from something they need to need to be given enough leeway so to discuss it if it's tangentially related to issues that the wikipedia policy discussion is about. Such leeway should be used with discretion certainly, but per the canvassing issue alone I don't think they violated any reasonable discretion. This is not the first time anyone has violated the canvassing policy with out knowing about it. Seems reasonable that they were not aware of it considering their reactions. Still it is concerning that they don't seem to understand the canvassing policy and their comments related to it after the policy was pointed out. Regarding anything else I can't argue that they used in reasonable discretion in this conversation. And thus I walk away.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I have to retract any statement of support here. Having a conversation with this editor has raised multiple red flags. Reviewing their editing history they stopped editing 2012. They came back at the end of October of this year. They contacted multiple admins in quick succession. First trying to discuss their and overturn their topic ban. This moves quickly into discussing polemics. Before making a decision or taking action it may be apt to review their editing history since returning.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 13:30, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

  • I don't disagree with the policy at all. I disagree with your interpretation of the policy. I disagree with your proposed changes to the policy as well.
  • Users should be given the leeway to discuss policy and bring up subjects that may violate their topic ban, especially when the policy is social in nature. However any such leeway should be used with discretion. It is only now that you are even using a modicum of discretion and that's only halfhearted. You forumshopped multiple admins, first trying to get your topic ban over turned. Then when that wasn't working you started using ambiguous language to get permission to violate your topic ban[137]. The only thing you haven't done at this point is make a honest attempt at changing the policy. You've used loaded language and canvassed to promote it. I do not support giving you leeway now that it's clear that you are a disruptive editor that holds long grudges. I'm not even sure there's a valid reason to do anything other than indef you, of course this is for the admins to decide. Since leaving in 2012 you've made no meaningful contributions that I can see to wikipedia. Your using your account to sopabox and that's all. I think it's really time for this to stop.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:09, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by nableezy[edit]

He's using examples specifically within the topic area. this is a direct reference to Tiamut's user page (the Incitement to "sharpen the weapons" against Jews, albeit masqueraded as a paraphrase on Shakespeare (quoted from an Arab newspaper) and whatnot), a user Jaak has an interaction ban with. That same diff discusses "Arab 'mukawama'" (which despite what the user thinks isnt an Arab doctrine of conflict enhancement whatever that is supposed to mean, it's the Arabic word for resistance). And pretty much every article he links to in for example this, this, and this is about ongoing attacks in Israel and the Palestinian territories. The user is banned from discussing the conflict anywhere on Wikipedia, so I disagree that this falls outside of ARBPIA. He could have worded it so that it did, but he has not. nableezy - 00:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
I really dont think its stretching anything, considering what caused Jaak to be banned indefinitely in the first place was pretty much this exact same discussion. Discussing the actual conflict on Wikipedia is part of his ban, not much need for any construal. nableezy - 07:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Nishidani[edit]

I did mention that there are a lot of stabbing attacks in Israel

Jaakobou. You might rephrase that to read 'there are a lot of stabbing attacks in Jerusalem and the West Bank', which are not in Israel.Nishidani (talk) 14:07, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Reading this it appears clear that you wish to return to Wikipedia to edit about 'Arab' stabbings, precisely the kind of 'militant' interest in advancing a POV that got you banned in the first place. We have an abundant number of socks, POV pushers, and IPs already diligently applying themselves to fanning the flames here, as witness the remarkable number of redlinked editors jumping into I/P articles since October. Nishidani (talk) 14:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Once could consider this evidence of why Jaakobou should not return to Wikipedia. He pings me to reply to the following question: 'Q: Aren't you tired of promotion and legitimization of violence against civilians?. This is a gross distortion of what I do here, and a personal attack on my presence in the I/P area.It is effectively saying that in simply looking after articles on the death tolls of violence in that area, by noting down that there are numerous Palestinian casualties, I am encouraging violence against (Israeli) civilians. How long may Jaakobou be given leave from his sanction to conduct a polite form of character assassination?Nishidani (talk) 15:16, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Jaakobou. This whole charade of 'concern' about polemic violations is a complete Potemkin village montage, dangling an absurd fantasy that named editors (in diffs) somehow subscribe to terrorism. It's deeply offensive, in both the military and etiquette sense of that word. You are now questioning also the integrity of admins, and badgering them in successive WP:TLDR screeds. This place is for concrete article-work, not for haranguing about some personal beef re the incumbent incitement of Islamic madness as a threat to Wikipedia. Nishidani (talk) 10:25, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph. I maintain, because no one else will, a comprehensive, day by day List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015 in which every stabbing, extrajudicial killing, etc. by either side is duly registered, for the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Jerusalem and Israel, the place on each occasion precisely noted. When I noted to Jaakobou he was incorrect in associating this phenomenon (exclusively) with what happens in Israel, since most of the violence is in areas internationally recognized as occupied, and outside of Israel's internationally legitimate boundaries, he came back and insisted, contra-factually, that Jerusalem was in Israel. That is his POV, fine, but it is not true technically. Stabbings of course take place in Israel, but not the majority. And of course, Israel is a duly constituted nation, with international legitimacy, questioning the right of which to exist is a sign of anti-Semitism. I don't know how many times I have said this, even to some pro- Palestinian editors, and one tires of stating the obvious. Nishidani (talk) 21:24, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph[edit]

I just wanted to add a statement not necessarily to prove anything one way or another, but the statement by Nishidni about the stabbings rubs me the wrong way. The fact that he had to make an edit just to say that stabbings are not done in Israel but are done in WB or what not does not make one confident that editing in the arena you will be dealing with someone who will be AGF and NPOV. There have been daily stabbings in Israel, and by Israel, I mean Israel proper. Just today, there have been two people killed in Tel Aviv, and I would like to ask Nishidani if Tel Aviv is considered Israel or occupied territories. And this is why perhaps polemics should not be included at all on userpages. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:38, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Foxj[edit]

@Jaakobou: I'm at a loss as to why I'm mentioned in this request. I would appreicate if I could be dropped from the list of people you ping every time you post on Wikipedia about this topic. Thanks. — foxj 22:15, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Crazycomputers[edit]

My total involvement in anything even potentially tangentially related to this entire situation was starting this ANI thread some three years ago.

I don't know how that makes me an "involved admin" in this particular arbitration case. I have no statement to make and I don't know why my name was brought up here. --Chris (talk) 22:09, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning Jaakobou[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Yes linking to anything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict is a violation of the TBAN (which I didn't know about before) including the offwiki articles however I believe that Jaakobou didn't realise it was a violation. I don't believe that sanctions are warranted, so I wonder if Timotheus Canens would consider an exemption to allow Jaakobou to continue the discussion on WT:UP (or lifting the TBAN completely). In any case, Jaakobou, youplease do not make any further edits which relate to the Arab-Israeli conflict (including discussing or linking to 'poetic militancy' related to the Arab-Israeli) until we hear back from Tim. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:00, 19 November 2015‎
  • I'm not inclined to lift the topic ban or to grant an exemption. T. Canens (talk) 04:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I too would oppose lifting Jaakobou's ARBPIA topic ban or granting an exemption. In the early days of Wikipedia there were some userbox crusades. In the ARBPIA area it's enough work for admins just to keep on top of the article edits in hopes of keeping them neutral. On Tiamut's page we have a quote from Shakespeare where the word 'Jew' is replaced by 'Palestinian.' Tiamut's page was cited by Jaakobou in a message to Callanecc. It is hard to view this quotation as an argument for knife attacks on the West Bank. EdJohnston (talk) 05:07, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Fair enough, do either of you see a need to issue a block or other sanction? I'd rather just remind them of the TBAN and IBAN and tell them to take extreme care (or just leave) the discussion they started at WT:UP. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • This is a repeat violation by Jaakobou. See his comment at AN in March 2012: "..Proper disclosure: in what I consider to be an unethical decision, a few admins recently decided that raising this as an issue on WP:AE is disruptive enough to be topic-ban worthy..." That's yet another complaint about Tiamut, for those who have been trying to follow along. The idea that 'Jaakobou didn't realize it was a violation' is no longer credible. It seems like he thinks the March 2012 decision against him at AE was just a quirk, due to particular admins who showed up to rule on his case, so he keeps shopping his complaint around, hoping for a different answer. Anyone looking for the 2012 sanction log will find it on this page. The full AE decision was at this link, which has more details about the Jaakobou-Tiamut dispute. (Nine admins participated in the AE thread). If you review Jaakobou's comments in that complaint, you may get an idea of why the decision went against him. If he still wants to appeal his ban he can do so, but his recent conduct isn't reassuring. EdJohnston (talk) 19:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
    Since Jaakobou has already mentioned words from the I-P conflict in his statement of the RfC at WT:User pages#Rephrase suggestion to WP:UP#POLEMIC ("mukawama", "jihad") I don't see how he can continue the discussion there. Anything he says will be a contravention of his ARBPIA ban. Jaakobou's most recent addition to that thread is on 20 November. As User:Johnuniq stated in that thread, " It's pretty obvious that Jaakobou is proposing a change to WP:UP#POLEMIC in order to poke certain opponents in the P-I area.." If Jaakobou continues to participate in that thread, I recommend he be blocked as an enforcement action. EdJohnston (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • See the above post by User:Timotheus Canens: "I'm not inclined to lift the topic ban or to grant an exception." User:Jaakobou has now been made aware that his edits at WT:UP#Polemic are a violation of his ban and are risking a block. That's enough advice for now, and I suggest that this thread can be closed. EdJohnston (talk) 15:22, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

S Marshall[edit]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning S Marshall[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 02:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
S Marshall (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Discretionary Sanctions are explicitly extended for the Electronic Cigarettes topic area. Specifically, single purpose accounts may be topic banned or blocked (indefinite or otherwise), if in the view of an uninvolved administrator, they are being disruptive in the topic area.Uninvolved administrators are encouraged to monitor the articles covered by discretionary sanctions in this case to ensure compliance. To assist in this, administrators are reminded that accounts with a clear shared agenda may be blocked if they violate the sockpuppetry policy or other applicable policy; accounts whose primary purpose is disruption or making personal attacks may be blocked indefinitely; discretionary sanctions permit full and semi-page protections, including use of pending changes where warranted, and – once an editor has become aware of sanctions for the topic – any other appropriate remedy may be issued without further warning. The Arbitration Committee thanks those administrators who have been helping to enforce the community general sanctions, and thanks, once again, in advance those who help enforce the remedies adopted in this case. See Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#E-cigs_case_closed

See Talk:Electronic cigarette/Archive 23#Removal. On 31 March 2015 SM deleted info on tobacco harm reduction is unclear.[138] On 20 April 2015 SM deleted info on tobacco harm reduction is unclear.[139] On 19 November 2015 SM deleted info on tobacco harm reduction is unclear.[140] The text about tobacco harm reduction was restored.

See Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive_25#New_Images. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette#New_.22full_range.22_image_uploaded. SM deleted two images and replaced it with one image. The discussion was still ongoing.[141] SM also deleted another image, but another editor disagreed.

See Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Safety_claim_in_Harm_reduction.. I did state it would be better to shorten the text. There was a discussion to relocate the text.[142] The text was misplaced and it was eventually removed from the harm reduction section. I added some information to the safety section. SM stated my edit to the safety section was a "Rv pre-emptive Quackeditry".

SM stated in the recent AFD that "it was used as a holder for all the semi-relevant junk that disruptive people kept adding to Electronic cigarette to make it conform to their notion of "balance".". SM was making assertions about me without supporting evidence. QuackGuru (talk) 02:32, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

I cut and pasted the wrong remedy. I had a concern with the text about tobacco harm reduction was deleted three times.[143][144][145] I could ask an uninvolved admin to review such complaints before I post them at a noticeboard such as this which would restrict myself from making complaints. In the future when someone makes an edit summary such as "Rv pre-emptive Quackeditry" or "No you don't, sunshine" or other such comments directed at me I should stop taking it too personally. QuackGuru (talk) 18:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

SM is making comments about my current editing without specific diffs. SM previously made comments about me without diffs. I will not know what is your current concern without the specifics. If I disagree with a change on the talk page that does not mean I am being problematic. I am going to start a RfC to try an resolve this dispute. QuackGuru (talk) 21:09, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

This comment did not state the text about the different volts was previously in the lede. Before I started a RfC the information about different volts was in the lede of the safety page. I explained on the talk page the lede did not mention dry puffing. I clarified the wording in the lede. The RfC on the e-cig talk page is about summarising text in the e-cig. QuackGuru (talk) 02:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

There are two separate pages. AlbinoFerret is not explaining the text was in the lede of the Safety page before there was a RfC and is not giving me credit that I clarified the wording in the lede.[146] No editor at the Safety of electronic cigarettes page stated it should be removed from the page or the lede. In fact, AlbinoFerret has recently added a lot of content about the different volts to Safety of electronic cigarettes page. QuackGuru (talk) 03:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

User:Spartaz, The RfC has been productive. Things are moving faster than I expected. There are different proposals and suggestions on the talk page. I supported the 3rd and 4th proposal. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette#RfC:_reduced_volts_and_aldehydes. This is a very controversial topic and sources often disagree. The disagreement among sources is often the cause of the disputes in this topic area. I am not a former smoker or e-cig user. But I did add most of the new material to the e-cig page this year. Until the known unknowns are knowns there will remain a dispute among sources. QuackGuru (talk) 20:45, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 

Diff of the notification.

Discussion concerning S Marshall[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by S Marshall[edit]

  • Hi, Arbitration Enforcement admins! Please investigate QuackGuru's complaints in full and give him latitude to raise new ones against me. I am completely out of patience with this user's ridiculous behaviour since the Arbcom case closed, so it's entirely possible that I've been rude to him.—S Marshall T/C 12:28, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • If close this, it'll be back. QG's behaviour hasn't changed at all since the Arbcom case. In that case, a whole spectrum of problem behaviours came out: controlling; manipulative; editing the article and talk page with insane frequency; refusing change wherever possible; where a consensus is emerging that he doesn't like, making pre-emptive changes that partially implement what other editors are saying but without affecting text he's written; reverting subtly, in nickel-and-dime changes that end up restoring his preferred text over time; issuing spurious warnings to other editors; mischaracterising or misrepresenting others' edits; I could go on and on. QG has never admitted fault, has never acknowledged that there was anything wrong with his behaviour, and has never promised to change. And he hasn't changed one bit.

    I'm fairly bitter and disappointed that after a four-month Arbcom case, QG's still pulling these stunts exactly as if nothing had happened. It's this feeling which is making me snarky.

    I'd suggest that the resolution is this:- (1) QG admits -- actually articulates -- that his controlling behaviour in this topic area is problematic; (2) He promises to desist; (3) He agrees not to make pre-emptive edits, but to allow consensus to build on the talk page, and to allow the consensus text to go into the article without trying to undermine it later; and then (4) I promise to drop it and desist from the snark.—S Marshall T/C 20:54, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

  • No, QuackGuru. Do not forum-shop by starting an RFC. You've tried to resolve this here, now finish resolving it here. If he starts an RfC then please would an AE enforcement admin close it.

    QG, you're asking me for diffs. Before I produce them, please confirm that you have read what Arbcom said to you with the appropriate care and attention but you still need me to produce diffs to show you specifically how and why your behaviour is problematic.—S Marshall T/C 21:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Well, this is completely out of order. So far, QG has started five discussions about this revert: 1 (my talk page); 2 (unilaterally adding me to AlbinoFerret's clarification and amendment page); 3 (starting e-cigs 2 in front of Arbcom); 4 (finally starting discussion in the right place, which is here) and now 5 (RfC when this discussion didn't go his way). On past form I predict that he will become unresponsive in this venue.

    I need an AE sysop please to close the forum-shopping RFC and bring QuackGuru back here to answer what I'm saying.—S Marshall T/C 11:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by AlbinoFerret[edit]

QG is misapplying the findings of the arbcom case. S Marshall is as far from an SPA per his edit history.[147] Even if we were to double the 446 edits he has made in the area of all e-cig pages and the arbocom case, his total edits of 21,071 make the SPA possibilities a rather bad joke. Of note though is this finding from the case. "QuackGuru (talk · contribs) is warned that continuing to engage in a pattern of disruption to Wikipedia will result in further sanctions." One of the issues from the case is forcing his desired outcome on the page, and making edits to pre-empt changes while discussion is ongoing. AlbinoFerret 12:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

As a NAC with over 200 closes, I can honestly say the RFC QG started [148] is malformed. It consists of his preferred version with no questions. AlbinoFerret 08:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

After now changing the RFC for I think the 4th time QG has a non neutral RFC question/statement that predisposes his preferred version in the header. This is the kind of behaviour that got him the arbcom warning and should be addressed here. AlbinoFerret 20:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

@Rhoark, I dont think S Marsall suggested collecting diff's, I think he was referring to the massive amount of diff's I had already collected for ARCA. Most of which pre-date the Arbocom case closing so I dont believe can be used for AE.[149] Due to the constant disruption QG causes, I wonder how many chances this editor will get. He has been banned numerous times [150] and warned by arbcom. The comments of the arbs in this section are worth reading QuackGuru Warned. AlbinoFerret 22:02, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

QG started an RFC for the summery of Safety of Electronic cigarettes in the main article, and it appears that consensus is against him at this point. But he has already started to edit the changes to his preferred version on the Safety page.[151] The Summery on the main article and the lede Safety page should be in sync as all other daughter pages. Editing the text now while the RFC is ongoing is pre empting the RFC. These are the type of problematic edits that arbcom has warned QG about. AlbinoFerret 03:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Here is some evidence of QG's editing from during the arbcom case, but after evidence closed, it should be applicable here.


The first one is damning, it shows that QG has known for months that the claim he is pushing to have in the current RFC is the product of failed methodology. He is also pushing in the current RFC to keep out wording that shows it is the product of failed methodology. This is a NPOV problem that points to negative slant advocacy which most of the other diffs continue to prove. It also shows another problem, re-arguing things over and over till you get the results you want.

  • On August 21, 2015 Johnbod started a section [152] about the new review from Puublic health England [153] showing that the review found "A high level of formaldehyde was found when e-liquid was over-heated to levels unpalatable to EC users". QG then defended his addition of the formaldehyde findings, sourced to the NEJM that the Public Health England on page 77 showing the failed methodology that the NEJM study used. His response was that he had changed it to balance it [154] but the resulting edit "While high voltage (5.0 V) e-cigarettes may generate formaldehyde agents at a greater level than smoking, reduced voltage e-cigarettes generate negligible levels of formaldehyde" makes it sound like this is normal and the harm is the ecig, not the product of failed methodology. In fact QG was warned that the source was based on flawed methodology months before [155], with a link to a website of a known expert who had authored reviews used in the article, but it only made QG look for it all the more and do searches for it.
    • This talk page section on the topic is a perfect example of QG arguing in circles and not really discussing the problem.[156]
    • Even after the problems with the NEJM article on formaldehyde have been pointed out and QG placed the material in a position of prominence at the start of a paragraph in the lede.[157] then added it to the Safety article [158].
  • 9/14/2015 Talk page section on new sources, Johnbod points out that QG does not list positive ones.[159]
  • 9/18/2015 I changed a claim to reflect what the source actually said[160] as discussed in this section[161]. QG flagged it as a MERDS violation[162] but QG was the person to add the claim originally.[163] A talk page discussion was opened Talk:Electronic_cigarette#MEDRS_violation where it was pointed out that the edit by QG was OR trying to insert that it was either smokers looking for "alternatives" or of smokers as a whole.
  • 10/11/2015 QG Replaces positive claim that e-cigarettes contain fewer toxic substances that tobacco cigarettes with one that says they contain lower levels of toxic substances.[164]
  • 10/14/2015 QG replaced formaldehyde with carcinogens.[165]
  • 10/28/2015 QG is against adding the NHS website[166] when he has added other government websites. Moves the claim out of Harm reduction to bury it in the Position statements.[167] this is also a possible competency issue. Cloudjpk shows up out of the blue and reverts what QG wants gone.[168] then QG does a ref maintenance afterwards to stop easy undo.[169]
  • 9/21/2015 There was a discussion on creating a Regulation page with consensus to wait for the regulation from the FDA to be released. [170] 9/23/2015 QG starts another discussion about breaking out Regulation from the Legal status page.[171] Other editors suggest someone else, johnbod, write the article and that QG collect the sources. QG says he didnt have time to gather sources. [172] Then QG without any other discussion or warning creates the page. [173]
      • Afterwards QG had the page speedy deleted rather than allowing other editors to fix the page.
        • (Deletion log); 01:03 . . RHaworth (talk | contribs) deleted page Talk:Regulations of electronic cigarettes ‎(G8: Talk page of a deleted page)
        • (Deletion log); 01:03 . . RHaworth (talk | contribs) deleted page Regulations of electronic cigarettes ‎(G7: One author who has requested deletion or blanked the page)
  • 9/25/2015 The lede of the Construction of electronic cigarettes page was 4 paragraphs long. QG originally wrote the lede.[174] I started a talk page section pn the articles talk page.[175] QG argued against WP:LEADLENGTH and misrepresented the guideline and the articles size.[176] calling it "well written". The lede at the time was a collection of claims jumbled together and did not read well.[177]
  • 11/3/2015 I brought a new source to the talk page to be discussed and figure out what can be added.[178] QG prempted the discussion by editing it in.[179]
  • 9/14/2015 QG wants to use a blog as a source. [180]
  • 9/14/2015 E-cigarettes are a battery and an atomizer [181] anyone who has been involved for a day in the topic should know this does not need a reference.
  • 9/21/2015 Requires a citation that an electronic device has a switch to activate it.[182]
  • 10/10/2015 Shows misunderstanding of WP:VER in that QG believes it says everything "must" be sourced. [183]
  • 11/2/2015 QG replaces 2015 review with a 2014 book to get the claim he wants.[184] There is a mistake in the date, but this issue shows its a 2014 source.[185]
  • 11/10/2015 QG places a FV tag.[186] then two minutes later removes the claim and substitutes source.[187] There was no discussion, or description of what was wrong with the summery.

The 10/28/2015 NPOV instance eerily mimics the events that led QG to be topic banned from Acupuncture. AlbinoFerret 21:04, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rhoark[edit]

  1. S Marshall recommended to AlbinoFerret[188] that the latter collect diffs of evidence that QuackGuru tends to take pre-emptive action against proposals under discussion.
  2. QuackGuru takes pre-emptive action against this suggestion by filing a complaint against S Marshall for not having gathered the evidence himself.

Admins should have zero patience for such antics. QuackGuru's block log suggests they will continue to be incorrigible. A one year topic ban would be a restrained response. Rhoark (talk) 21:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

@AlbinoFerret: SM seemed to be specifically addressing incidents after the e-cig case closed, so I assume he meant something other than the diffs already collected. Not a key point.

@Cla68: I have no involvement in this beyond the present filing.

I'm not seeing prima facie disruption in the positions QuackGuru is taking on content issues, nor do I see it as a problem that QG started the RfC in parallel with this AE filing. The RfC is about content, while this should be about behavior. This filing itself, along with QC's block history is all I need to see to recognize disruption, but in any further evidence what would be important is patterns of disregarding or pre-empting consensus more than the fact they said this or that about e-cigs. Rhoark (talk) 22:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68[edit]

I respectfully suggest to S Marshall, AlbinoFerret, and Rhoark that you take the topic in question off your watchlists and let QuackGuru have it to himself. Putting up with the nonsense that you're having to put up with is not worth the time it drains from your lives that you could be doing more fruitful and productive work elsewhere. Notice that the admins responding below aren't going to do anything to try to rein-in QuackGuru's behavior. So, just let him have the article(s). Just pop in to the article talk page and leave a comment or try to improve the text every few days or so and then don't pay attention to the inevitable revert or snarky response that immediately follows. This will have the effect of chaining QuackGuru to the article as he checks his watchlist every few minutes or so to make sure the article stays the way he wants it while the rest of you get on with your lives. Cla68 (talk) 05:45, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning S Marshall[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • QuackGuru if you are going to relitigate the arb case again then I will simply close this as no action. Please remove all the historical stuff (the case closing is a bright line that deals with previous events entirely) . Also take out all the assertion and reformat this with exactly what the restriction is, why it was broken and diffs to both. You shouldn't need more than 3-4 lines max and that means that you don't need to rehash all your bad blood and history with this user, which is not only wearisome to read but suggests you are still carrying a grudge. Thanks. Spartaz Humbug! 07:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
    • It seems a bit pot and kettle for you to accuse SM of casting aspersions when you have been chasing a single edit of his while relitigating the case around AlbinoFerret's ARCA request, your own withdrawn RFAR and now AE - all the while the article talk page seems to be hosting an notably constructive discussion of the change that SM wants. As far as I can see, while the article is subject to discretionary sanctions, no restrictions have yet been made to normal editing (i. WP:BRD has not been disallowed on the article. Further, SM is not an SPA, nor was he made the subject of any personal sanctions nor was his conduct admonished by the committee. The same decision, however, admonished you for behaving disruptively and warned you that continuing this pattern could lead to further sanctions. Despite that, as soon as the case is over, you seem to be right back to the same disruptive behaviour. This seems very problematic to me. I do not think that we can possibly consider imposing any form of sanction for an editor who makes single edits and then proceeds to engage in civil and productive discussion on the article talk page to help establish a consensus on what the outcome should be. In fact, this kind of behaviour in a contested area is something that should be applauded. Indeed, it is your disruptive behaviour that is obstructing useful discussion. So let me be very clear QuackGuru, I am seriously considering whether you should be topic banned or forbidden from raising spurious noticeboard complaints in order to allow the other editors in this area to continue working towards a consensus on this article. Alternatively, you might wish to reconsider whether it might be more productive for you to stop personalising disputes with other editors and restrict yourself to discussing edits and content rather than pursuing the editors making the comments. I'd be very interested in any comments or thoughts you might have on this and, of course, those of other uninvolved admins. Spartaz Humbug! 14:12, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
      • QuackGuru That sounds like amn eminently sensible solution to me. S Marshall Cann you cut out the snarky edit summaries please? Waiting for further input before closing. Spartaz Humbug! 19:53, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
        • It would be good for another admin to pitch in.... Spartaz Humbug! 21:13, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
          • Tumbleweed.... I'll delay closing this until I have time to review the issues raised following my exchange with QuackGuru. Spartaz Humbug! 14:12, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
      • If Quackguru is engaging in the same disruptive behavior less than a week after the closure of an ArbCom case where this behavior was noted in the findings, then a topic ban is the appropriate remedy. Gamaliel (talk) 06:43, 26 November 2015 (UTC)