Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Iskandar323[edit]

Iskandar323 receives a logged warning to take into account page and other restrictions due to discretionary sanctions--Ymblanter (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Iskandar323[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Shrike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 07:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Iskandar323 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
[[1]]
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 20:31, 14 September 2021 restore of this revert [2]
  2. 22:35, 14 September 2021 second revert of the same material
  3. [3] Personal attack


Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. Date Explanation
  2. Date Explanation
If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
  • Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [4]
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The user was given a chance to self-revert and he still can but he refuses to do so[5]. The user also violated WP:NPA when he was told that he broken the rules. For me it seems that this editor is uncapable to edit is such area and should take a break to learn our polices. --Shrike (talk) 07:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I agree that the banner was applied after offending edits but now that the user knows that his edits have direct connection to the conflict he can still self rv --Shrike (talk) 08:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
To the very least the user should understand that his statement "1RR is a guideline, not a rule" is not correct and 1RR should be adhered --Shrike (talk) 08:24, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Iskandar323: The reason that it was not tagged it because there was no content regarding the conflict by adding the text about the conflict you have turned the page to be covered by sanctions. It would be a good practice to add such tag yourself and understand that any content regarding the conflict is covered by sanctions --Shrike (talk) 10:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Zero0000: He can add talk page notice to the very least and abide the rules even without the edit notice and that most of the regulars do. I will probably take it to ARCA as apparently you can break the rules even if you perfectly aware of them --Shrike (talk) 13:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Deepfriedokra:,@HighInBC: The user still in his WP:battle mode calling me an "antagonist" [6] The user clearly here to WP:RGW --Shrike (talk) 07:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Deepfriedokra: I don't think I said that the user is "partisan" If yes could you please show me. Maybe you confusing my statement with Iscander[7] --Shrike (talk) 14:50, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[8]

Discussion concerning Iskandar323[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Iskandar323[edit]

I made one revert, and then, within the same 24-hour period, made a second, modified edit following on from a discussion in the talk section of the page, where the consensus was that the content I had added had been given undue weight. Duly noted, the modified edit reduced the weight of the content. This discussion was civil and did not involve the accusing editor in the slightest. The other editors involved in the discussion have not voiced their opposition or made further reverts, though one has made further edits that have not affected the modified content, suggesting that, for that user at least, the content produced as a result of discussion towards consensus was appropriate. I maintain that the accusing editor appears to have a shallow grasp of Wikipedia's good faith principles, and I mean this in no way as a form of personal attack, but as a call-to-action for the individual to learn and engage in more civil and less belligerent forms of dialogue on the platform.

It is also worth noting that the accusing editor applied WP:PIA arbitration status to this article only after the discussions and edits in question, making the rather specific nature of his complaint somewhat retroactive in nature, but I personally do not think my good faith actions run afoul of the rules either way. I hope you will agree.

(Moved by HighInBC)Hi Deepfriedokra, consider me notified that 1RR is a rule in this subject area. I admit to being unaware that the restoration of substantially altered content could still be considered a revert, which I had though applied more technically to full reversions using undo functions. I am still not absolutely clear about whether my actions qualify in this instance, but I can see the sense of staying on the safer side of this rule, if only to prevent the waste of future resources (in the form of the valuable time of administrators such as yourself) on enforcement requests. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
(Moved by HighInBC)Ok, @HighInBC Noted. I apologise for my tone. But on the other point, in my defence, I had no idea that stricter arbitration rules could apply to pages not even tagged as such. I have had no engagement with such mechanisms, so I really had no means of knowing that this was the case. I still had not thought my actions constituted a second revert, but at least in principle, I had thought the standing rules for the page were 3RR, not 1RR, given the absence of any formal notice to the contrary. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
This is extremely disingenuous WikiLawyering by 11Fox11. I didn't say that the 1RR rule did not apply to me. I said that it was a guideline, as are all rules on Wikipedia. I also said that in my interpretation, based on my movement towards consensus, I did not violate 1RR in the first place, or at least not intentionally. Interpretations may differ. On the subject of the Zakaria Zubeidi article, you are neglecting to point out that the reverts I have made only pertain to technicalities about linking and sourcing, not to the core content, and in each instance I have provided substantial commentary to help guide the new user concerned (AVR2012) - advice for which, in at least one instance, they have thanked me publicly. A much more experienced editor PatGallacher, has actually removed the material in its entirety, which has then been reverted repeatedly by the new user AVR2012, but I have not engaged with this minor edit war - I have only made technical edits where inappropriate links or sourcing have been added. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:37, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
One of these two alleged personal attacks is a duplicate of the original. I would note that in both I do not make any direct accusations, just suppositions from my own perspective. I use the word 'seem', not 'is' or 'are'. Saying that something seems a certain way is not the same as asserting it is like that. Therein lies a very crucial difference between the expression of personal opinion and the type of defamation alleged. However, I will certainly take the advice of Deepfriedokra to refrain from even such perceived slights in future given the readily exploitable nature of such statements. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@11Fox11 I provided two sources, one a UN document and the other a Reuters story, clearly mentioning the bank's name - to suggest that it is in some way difficult to see this suggests either a huge degree of oversight or the wilful peddling of mistruth. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra From reading WP:BRD in a little more depth, I would suggest that the edit that is being suggested by some is a 'second revert' actually falls more obviously into the category of a 'Cycle', given that I conspicuously, and openly acknowledged in my edit comment that I had been overruled in the discussion with respect to the weighting of the new content and reacted accordingly. I would also note that it was the other editors in the page's discussion that deleted the content more or less without discussion - they just left a message and carried out the deletion without waiting for a reply. The only two, genuine reversions I made (over two separate days), were to restore the content that was deleted wholesale in this manner by editors who made little to no effort to improve or refine the content. I also pointed out that the wider article had only one, dead link supporting it, but, tellingly, most of the other editors seemed totally disinterested in adding content or improving the page, right up until Inf-in MD came along and added sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra Yes, I understand that I need to adhere to 1RR in this subject area moving forward, and that discussing and reaching agreement before reverting again is the way to avoid the sort of disruption that AE tries to stop. I will be more careful. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra Hi, I responded to GN on their talk page. I'm aware that my pattern of edits was unusual, but it was a one-off - I was just backfilling pertinent information that appeared to have been missed or omitted (possibly amid the heady rush of the early days of the global pandemic). Most good company pages should have criticism sections. If they don't, that in itself is at least cause for suspicion that the page is undeveloped. Few companies are perfect. Perhaps I gave undue weight to the new content: that is a perspective that has clearly been expressed on the talk page in question in this AE, and which I already acknowledged I understood in my edit notes prior to this AE being called. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:54, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra Is it not a problem for this AE that @Shrike is so clearly partisan? He is accusing me of WP:RGW, but if speculative opinion is all we are going by, the same suppositions could just as equally be said of them. Is none of this pertinent? Iskandar323 (talk) 07:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra Words are words, but is anything more WP:BATTLE mindset than gratuitously escalating minor edit disputes, dragging people before AEs and calling for discretionary sanctions over edits on articles without edit notices? Iskandar323 (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra I hadn't even heard of canvassing before it was mentioned before, and I still need to read up on the rules on this, but I didn't intentionally canvas anyone: I accidentally looped in an editor while trying to reference another's earlier comment in the same discussion, as the context should make clear. I also corrected myself. Did you read the full exchange? Iskandar323 (talk) 18:00, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra Isn't this AE supposed to be about my inadvertent breach of 1RR? Iskandar323 (talk) 18:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Johnuniq: What is the difference between accusing someone of WP:RGW and of being partisan? The very notion of WP:RGW is that someone is taking a partisan approach. It is bureaucratic to imply that one is a personal attack and the other is not simply because one is couched in technical language. I am not implying that you are intentionally being bureaucratic, but that the distinction is a bureaucratic one. WP:RGW is just a sub-category of WP:TEND, which defines partisanship. If an AE, outside of the context of normal talk pages and user talk pages, is not the suitable forum for raising the issues of the WP:TEND tendencies of certain users, where is?

@Johnuniq: But thank you for your clarification on the principle of concrete outcomes in criticism sections. Though I would ask if divestment (where actual sums are withdraw) is not, in of itself, a concrete outcome? You are also quite correct that I had not fully absorbed the implications of the alert notice posted on my talk page.

@Johnuniq: In answer to your specific questions about the Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot articles, I am not hugely vested in it and do not particularly care about the outcome, and I will not be trying to re-add a fully fledged 'criticism' section header or 'Involvement in Israeli settlements' section sub-header, because I now better understand the point about weighting relative to the article as a whole. I did not come up with these section headers spontaneously, but merely replicated the format from other similar sections on other articles, trusting that the editors who placed them there knew what they were doing, but where, in hindsight, the relative weighting may have been a little different. It still seems to me that a divestment by a large fund, as reported by Reuters, is a concrete outcome, and my tendency would still be to include a sentence on it, but I am not emotive about it. I merely made an addition that I thought was notable, based on sources that I thought were notable, in a format that I replicated from the work of other editors on other pages. All that I objected to was the wholesale deletion of material, by and large without discussion, by other editors.

@Johnuniq: If you haven't already, please do look at the edits involved in the twinkle episode yourself to decide whether I was undoing good faith edits or not. The title of that talk section is a highly leading one. I believe I was undoing disruptive edits that had re-instated information that was clearly incorrect by the standard definition of the infobox templates - a position another user quickly attested to. However, following the subsequent discussion, I undid the last revision all the same following the criticism and left it to others to edit out the demonstrably incorrect information if they so chose, which they did. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@HighInBC: Yes, I now realise the distinction between what I thought a revert is, and what a revert is in the technical definition you have mentioned. I had though that a partial re-edit of some of the same material in a different format and location, arrived at as a result of efforts to move towards consensus as per a discussion, was not a simple 'reversion'. But I now realise that the definition is quite broad and that its interpretation can be quite ironclad, particularly on articles perceived to be IP-related, even if they don't contain an edit notice. I also don't think it was totally unreasonable for me not to have understood absolutely all of this prior to this arbitration referral.

@HighInBC: I'm getting the hang of the 'comment on the content not the editors' mantra as well. I had assumed that personal attacks meant actual insults, defamation or slander, but not the questioning of motives or truthfulness, but clearly, here too the Wikipedia definition is either very broad or very open to interpretation. I'll admit to getting a little emotive on the subject of my own persecution. But is it also not a problem for editors to demonstrably falsify formal statements in an arbitration forum?

NB: Let me once more state plainly that, while I was not aware of and certainly did not fully comprehend the 1RR rules with respect to this conflict area prior to this AE being called, I do now understand the 1RR rules quite clearly, as well as the general principle behind the 1RR and its general merit as a means of de-escalation in all circumstances, as well as the benefits of pursing a more thoughtful, civil and WP:BRD-informed editing approach. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:14, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by 11Fox11[edit]

The edit notice is a technicality, and Iskandar323's conduct is sanctionable without the 1RR. They are edit warring in the face of talk page consensus against them and engaging in personal attacks and commentary.

On Zakaria Zubeidi they reverted three times: [9][10][11] (and some reverts of IPs).

On Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot they also reverted multiple times: [12][13][14], when consensus was against them at Talk:Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot#Hugely undue addition.

To this one must add the personal attacks: [15] and [16] against Shrike when notified of 1RR. They also think the 1RR rule doesn't apply to them. 11Fox11 (talk) 08:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Deepfriedokra: the page was about an Israeli bank that is unrelated to the conflict. Then Iskandar323 came along with the seemingly innocuous edit summary "new section" and turned a third of the article into Arab-Israeli conflict material (reverted as undue by User:Number 57). Citing three sources ([17], [18], [19]) that do not even mention the Mizrahi-Tefahot Bank by name, which is WP:SYNTHESIS. It is disingenuous for Iskandar323 to complain about lacking edit notices on the conflict on the page when they turned the page into a conflict article all by their lonesome. Israeli banks are generally unrelated to the conflict, but if an editor hijacks an unrelated article into a conflict article, they shouldn't then complain that no one foresaw their own actions in advance. 11Fox11 (talk) 11:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@HighInBC, Deepfriedokra, and Johnuniq: now Iskandar323 is engaging in blatant canvassing, pinging Nishidani who never edited the article or its talk. 11Fox11 (talk) 17:17, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Never edited until after being pinged. Ping at 16:40, Nishidani edits at 17:29. 11Fox11 (talk) 17:33, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Selfstudier[edit]

Usually we give newer editors the benefit of the doubt, I think an informal warning is sufficient in this case.Selfstudier (talk) 09:24, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Pinging one editor, apparently in error, is not "blatant canvassing". I believe that following the latest post, the editor now "gets it" re 1R and Arbpia. I am not overly fond of the semi automated crit thing but I doubt the editor would repeat that either.Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
From 2014 until the recent editing of 2021, the user was mainly inactive and so I consider him "new" to the IP area in that sense as well as by edit count.Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Zero0000[edit]

To Shrike: According to WP:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles, an editnotice is required for the General Sanctions to be enforced but Iskandar323 does not have the technical ability to add one. Zerotalk 13:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC) @Shrike: Of course he should obey the rules, but nobody is obliged to add ARBPIA notices. I don't see what you want to take to ARCA as the rule about editnotices has been discussed by ArbCom before and they are unlikely to change it. Zerotalk 13:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by GeneralNotability[edit]

I'm very tangentially involved here, but wanted to add an observation (not specifically related to the AE violation in question). On 12 September, Iskandar bulk-added a "criticism" section to 30ish company articles (see here, look for the edit summary "Added section"). The bulk of these were added within the span of about half an hour. They were later mass-reverted as "Undue weight" by Mike Rothman2, whom I temp-blocked for undiscussed mass reversion and obvious attempts at permissions gaming. My concern is this: mass addition of "criticism" sections in this manner smacks of WP:RGW/POV-pushing, and I am concerned about whether Iskandar can neutrally in the topic area. GeneralNotability (talk) 14:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Deepfriedokra, I'm in a weird position as kind-of-involved-but-not-really, but since I'm commenting in the "other people" section and not the "uninvolved admin" section I think it's best if I'm not consulted on sanctions. GeneralNotability (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Inf-in MD[edit]

I'd like to draw your attention to recent comments by Iskandar323, where he describes this request against him as a "technicality", and despite the clear language used by Johnuniq below which says the criticism section is undue for the bank's article, that it is due and that there no "hard and fast rule" against it.[20][21]. Maybe a warning is not enough. Inf-in MD (talk) 15:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Deepfriedokra I think a ban is taking it a bit too far. My comment above notwithstanding, I find Iskandar323 to be one of the more reasonable editors with whom I disagree on most things. A formally logged warning coupled with his acknowledgment that he understands what he did and will not do it again should suffice. Inf-in MD (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Nableezy[edit]

Whether or not something is UNDUE is a matter for the talk page and the NPOV noticeboard, not AE. A user is free to engage wider input on a content dispute, what is needed here is the user acknowledging and agreeing to abide by our edit warring policies. This group of editors that all happen to be on one side of an editing dispute (mustnt call them partisans of course) agitating for a content ruling on a conduct board is a bit troubling, as is their insistence that said content dispute be used to remove an opposing editor. nableezy - 15:59, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning Iskandar323[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Just noting that the page in question does not seem to have an editnotice describing the 1RR restriction, though it is described on the talk page. I know this is a requirement for discretionary sanctions. This seems to be an arbitration remedy rather than a DS. I am not sure if it follows the same requirements. No comment on the merits of the case at this point. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 07:57, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
It was not my intention to suggest a technicality should excuse this instance. I feel it is important to know that not only is an arbcom 1RR restriction a rule(not a guideline), but it is one of the most strictly enforced rules we have. It has very objective criteria that seem to have been violated. Ignore all rules is a great policy, but I would not suggest you try it with an arbcom ruling. I recommend a logged warning about 1RR without further action.
Regarding the uncivil comments, I find it ironic that they are assuming bad faith about someone assuming bad faith, though I don't think it rises to the level of action. I do think they should be cautioned to keep discussion on the topic of the content and try not to comment on the editors. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 10:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
I have created an edit notice for the page so that everyone will see when they edit: Template:Editnotices/Page/Zakaria Zubeidi. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 11:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Given their recent comment about the second revert being part of the BRD cycle and thus not a revert I really feel the warning should be a logged one. To be clear, A "revert" means any edit that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material. This includes engaging in the BRD cycle, this includes copyediting and minor changes, it includes anything that meets that definition. Please understand that an arbcom ruling overrides any essays or guidelines you may encounter and is enforced very strictly. A logged warning with clear wording will remove the excuse of such misunderstandings in the future. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 22:28, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra: Regarding that comment, I will echo my earlier caution to keep discussion on the topic of the content and try not to comment on the editors. Perhaps my proposed logged warning can include something to that effect. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 09:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I think that if Iskandar323 agrees to follow the (sometimes arcane) rules going forward, no sanction will be needed. I don't think that the "personal attack" rises to a sanctionable level. Iskandar323, please comment on content, not perceived belligerence. Now you know 1RR is a rule to be followed in this subject area. Am willing to be persuaded otherwise as to need for more than a reminder. Awaiting further opinions from those more AE experienced than I. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Ah, 1Fox11's comment posted just before I posted. Iskandar323, you really need to discuss, without making personal remarks, content. This moves us closer to the need for sanctions. AGF is not an impenetrable shield for edits that are disruptive. Sometimes AGF protestations are a red herring. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:44, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@HighInBC: Dear Lord, I've gone cross-eyed. Must be excess iron. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Iskandar323: I'm afraid you are mistaken. Some Wikipedia rules, like Wikipedia:Edit warring ,are policies. And as my colleague notes above, 1RR is an ArbCom ruling. No, I too would have been surprised at being hauled in to AE when a page did not indicate that 1RR applied. That is one reason I hope we can get by without sanctions. WP:BRD is a tool to use to avoid edit warring. What my colleague has already said I agree with. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
exploitable nature ? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:12, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Iskandar323: What I need to see is an understanding from you that you will adhere to 1RR in this subject area moving forward. Also, once, reverted, discussing and reaching agreement before reverting again is the way to avoid the sort of disruption that AE tries to stop. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Iskandar323: Please address GN's concern about POV pushing and the undue weight of adding criticisms sections. I think it the type of edit to be avoided moving forward. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 06:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
"I'm not sure that the implication implied in "to suggest that it is in some way difficult to see this suggests either a huge degree of oversight or the wilful peddling of mistruth" above doesn't cross the line into NPA. Imprecations like that only lead to trouble. @HighInBC: you've been AEing longer than I so, am I of-base or spot-on? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 06:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Johnuniq, HighinBC, and GeneralNotability: The comments like calling other users "antagonists" and the exploitable nature comment give the impression of a battle ground mind set. Will cautions be enough? (This thread is stressful) FWIW, I don't like "criticism" sections. They tend to become tabloidesque. As Johnuniq writes, write about the impact, not the criticism @Shrike: I think your assertions of "partisan" and RGW without dif's are a problem. Please let us draw our own conclusions. If something new arises, feel free to draw it to our attention with dif's. Maybe paraphrase what is said in the dif w/o descriptors that might inflame emotions. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Johnuniq, HighinBC, and GeneralNotability: THIS plus canvassing noted by 11Fox11 in addition to the other concerns raised here lead me to believe a TBAN in this area would be a good idea. Would appreciate your thoughts. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Here since 2014 with 1672 edits is "newish"? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:01, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • @Iskandar323: It's time for a frank exchange of views. Given the opinions that have been expressed and which I am about to express, what is your current understanding with regard to Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot (will you be proposing including "Involvement in Israeli settlements" text?), and what will happen if there are objections to your edits in this topic in the future? Re the article, if the UN publishes something, that might warrant a mention on an article about the UN. Only if a concrete outcome occurred for the bank (e.g. stock value or equivalent plunged for a prolonged period) would it be WP:DUE to mention the bank's inclusion on a list. In general, don't add "criticism" sections to articles (see WP:CRIT)—if something significant occurred for the bank (a concrete outcome), consider writing a section on that. Further, it is totally unacceptable to baldly describe other editors as "clearly partisan" (diff). The OP mentions diff as a personal attack and technically "You seem belligerent" is a move in that direction and is very inappropriate, not to mention pointless—does Iskandar323 imagine that this rejoinder will help in any way?
    Iskandar323 was alerted about discretionary sanction two weeks ago and we could assume they haven't yet absorbed the implications. Depending on how things work out in the next 24 hours, I could conclude that an informal warning for Iskandar323 is sufficient, or perhaps it's not. Johnuniq (talk) 07:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Yes, this was a 1RR violation, and it's quite disruptive to keep reinstating challenged material while a talk page discussion isn't going your way. However Iskandar323 is fairly new and was understandably not familiar with the sanctions, the article was missing the required notices, and Iskandar323 has committed to abide by 1RR going forward, so I don't think a sanction is a good idea. A warning would be plenty. Hut 8.5 17:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I agree with Hut 8.5 that a warning is appropriate here. Of course if this should happen again, further action will be needed, but hopefully a warning and clarification of the expectations in this area will suffice to keep that from becoming necessary. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • A warning seems like a decent path forward here. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 03:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • This was a disruptive breach of 1RR, however as Iskandar323 understandably didn't understand 1RR, I agree that a logged warning is appropriate in this case. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:45, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Xoltron[edit]

Indefed as an admin action --Guerillero Parlez Moi 03:09, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Xoltron[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
TrangaBellam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 08:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Xoltron (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBIPA
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 16 September 2021 WP:1AM
  2. 16 September 2021 WP:IDHT
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Here

Discussion concerning Xoltron[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Xoltron[edit]

I am not sure what the purpose of this on-going attack, mostly on my talk page, against me is. All I did was start a discussion on a talk page in the Indo-Aryan Languages article: A long mislabeled article for a language group known correctly in Linguistics studies around the globe as Indic, as also mentioned in the same article. The next thing I know, several Indian editors start attacking me on my talk page instead of continuing the discussion on the article's discussion page and then this Arbitration request, for what? I do make a point to respond to editors that make personal attacks and threats (like Deepfriedokra , and numerous others) meant to intimate. Is that what this is about or ?Xoltron (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by TrangaBellam[edit]

Deepfriedokra, see this. As you said, their combative nature spills out of ARBIPA. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Deepfriedokra, they (Xoltron) self-reverted a duplication. HistoryOfIran would remove the message and warn them (Xoltron) to not write on his talk page again. August 20 was less than a month ago. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:00, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning Xoltron[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Reveiw of Xoltron Account attached 2018-10-04T14:52:13; 264 edits. User has been sporatic. Went active in September 2021. Prior warnings for conflict in August 2019. EdJohnson's explanation about DS alert. Feels bullied and here. wow!.
Preliminary assessment User is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. They are instead attempting to peddle some form of revisionism. User is not compatible with a collaborative project. Just too much lack of WP:AGF and too combative
Preliminary proposed remedy Not sure Talk:Indo-Aryan languages falls within IPA, except for user making it so. I'd go with some sort of topic ban, but there's a lot of spill over. And the previous problems back in 2019. I don't think it would work. It's either fashion a topic ban or a block. No prior blocks, though. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:00, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@TrangaBellam: To HistoryofIran they said this? The mind reels. More inclined than ever to indef as regular admin action. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Oh, August 20 of this year and self reverted. Thanks, but that's old. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:52, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • @EdJohnston: Indeed. They edit in spurts, and have not edited since this discussion began. On the one hand, I'd like to give them an opportunity to respond. On the other, I don't I want to read the response. I like the way they lecture other users on "the way we do things". Or is that just a form of intimidation? Be happy to block w/o a response. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 07:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Indefinite block as regular admin action.. User has been far from WP:CIVIL throughout their Wikicareer. They have made personal attacks and cast aspersions, and offered threats, while treating Wikipedia as a battleground. They attack other users who try to communicate with them, and see attempts to help them edit constructively as harassment and intimidation. I was waiting to give them a chance to address their behavior as my initial impression was unfavorable. Their responses in this AE thread, on my talk page, and on their talk page do not inspire me with the hope that their incivility will cease. A topic ban has been proposed, but their edits actually fall outside WP:ARBIPA. And nothing in their interactions suggest they would adhere to a topic ban. A time limited block has been suggested, but their editing is sporadic with inactivity periods up to six months long. When they return, they resume where they left off. They might not even notice a time limited block, and they could simply out wait it and resume their unacceptable behavior after it ends. Because we have a history of incivilty and battlegrounding going back for years, I believe an indefinite block is the best alternative. Indefinite is not infinite. They could be unblocked the day after they are blocked if they addressed their behavior. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:18, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]
When a user like Xoltron is so aggressive right out of the gate an indefinite block has to be an option to consider. I think they must be oblivious to the trouble they are causing. They appear to see long time contributors as a set of horrible POV-pushers that they need to combat. From what they said on Kautilya3's page: "I am sorry that you are apparently angry and upset, but engaging in outright fraudulent accusations is not how we do things on Wikipdia. Please Consider this a warning and refrain from engaging in further bullying activities" I don't see how this situation turns around without some kind of a block. A time-limited block would suggest we are optimistic for a change of heart in the future. EdJohnston (talk) 04:25, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I am struck by how many times in a short editing history Xoltron has accused people they disagree with of harassment, bullying or similar behaviours [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]. Some of their editing has also been rather tenacious, e.g. here they assert that academics "have always designated this class of languages and ethnicities as Indic, not Indo-Aryan", only to be shown a long list of sources of academics using "Indo-Aryan". I'm not sure how much of this relates to ARBIPA, as most of their editing history concerns Iran, but this kind of behaviour is likely to lead to an indef block sooner or later. Hut 8.5 11:44, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I will echo what Hut says, this user very quickly jumps to accusing people of harassment. Just now in their statement they repeated this behavior towards Deepfriedokra in response to a simple question regarding their purpose on the project. I feel that while connected to the topic, this behavior goes beyond the topic. I am not sure a topic ban will resolve the issue. I am leaning towards something between a DS block for 1 month for combative behavior at the least, and a regular admin action WP:NOTHERE indef block at the most. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 00:27, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Given this rubbish I am going to lean heavily towards the indefinite block for battleground behavior and not being here to write an encyclopedia. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 00:35, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Iskandar323 (2)[edit]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Iskandar323[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
11Fox11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 14:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Iskandar323 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles-1RR
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 08:17, 21 September 2021 Revert of this edit
  2. 12:37, 21 September 2021 This "massive rewrite" reverts many edits, including this recent edit. Iskandar323's edit completely removed Daniel J. Schroeter's article in the The American Historical Review.
  3. 02:57, 20 September 2021, canvassing at page of like minded editor and personal attack ("it constitutes vandalism")
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 19 September 2021 Consensus among admins to log a warning against Iskandar323 for 1RR and other issues.


If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted and stated at AE on 17:15, 16 September 2021 that they "did not fully comprehend the 1RR rules with respect to this conflict area prior to this AE being called, I do now understand the 1RR rules quite clearly,"

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is a blatant 1RR violation. The page has an edit notice. This is coupled by canvassing and a personal attack, an issue at the last AE as well.

In addition, Iskandar323's talk page has a 20 September warning against edit warring on a whaling article and from 21 September a copyright/copying warning on a food article.

While I do agree with some aspects of Iskandar323's edit such as removing the demographic information, the removal of Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries from the lead (left only in the body with the newly coined euphemism "ultimately left" in a pipe link) is objectionable. Furthermore, Iskandar323 edit contained reverts of several bits that were contested between himself and other editors on the article and talk page:
  1. Short description: Iskandar323 was reverted a few times, including here on 21 September, yet they removed "contested political" from "term".
  2. Likewise, in the first sentence of the lead Iskandar323 removed "contested political" from "term", a revert of this edit from 19 September.
  3. In the third paragraph of the lead, Iskandar323 was already reverted on 19 September which they now changed to "Reflecting the academic origins of the term, Jews with origins in Arab-majority countries do not often self-identify as Arab Jews" - while sources are quite explicit in that most Mizrahi Jews reject this term. Iskandar323 removed "The term is controversial, as the vast majority of Jews with origins in Arab-majority countries do not identify as Arabs, and most Jews who lived amongst Arabs did not call themselves "Arab Jews" or view themselves as such."
  4. If needed, there are probably more reverts hidden in this large edit that can be pointed out.
This "massive rewrite", while containing some positive aspects, also reverted away material against the consensus of all other editors on the page. These highly POV reverts were hidden in the midst of this large edit 4 hours and 20 minutes after iskandar323's previous revert.--11Fox11 (talk) 16:52, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
User:Deepfriedokra, they had a chance to self-revert after this report was filed. But they chose only to partially self-revert, returning the Schroeter reference but not returning the text that was there previously. I document in the note above several other recent edits which were reverted by this "massive rewrite", which Iskandar323 made a conscious decision not to self-revert.--11Fox11 (talk) 09:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
User:Deepfriedokra, contrary to Iskandar323's most recent statement, in my initial complaint I stated very clearly that their ""massive rewrite" reverts many edits". I then gave an example of a single edit that was reverted, the simplest example so it would be easy to follow. Despite this, Iskander323 chose only to partially self-revert. Their concern of "evidence tampering or attempting to mask the timeline of events" is perplexing since that would also apply to their very partial self-revert.--11Fox11 (talk) 10:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
User:Deepfriedokra, this latest statement contains falsehood. Contrary to Iskandar323's word, the 20 September canvassing/personal-attack diff in this complaint does not appear in the previous complaint as can be easily checked by looking at the version preceding this complaint. The previous complaint had a different 16 September canvassing diff and different personal attacks diff which were addressed by admins. The canvassing/personal attack diff from 20 September is completely new behaviour conducted after the previous discussion had substantially ended.--11Fox11 (talk) 12:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
notified


Discussion concerning Iskandar323[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Iskandar323[edit]

This is totally inaccurate. In the first example provided, I attempted to restore the infobox to the page after it had been deleted along with a host of other edits two days prior. This was reverted by 11Fox11, and I left it be. The second edit referenced is something completely different altogether and in no way a revert of prior edits. It was something I was working on in the background and is totally unrelated to prior edits on the page. I rewrote the page from the ground up, using academic book and journal sources to provide the beginning of an accurate, sourced background to the origin and use of the eponymous term of the page. It is just a beginning and more work and sourcing needs to be done, but it was a page rescue to push the content back towards the well-documented, peer-reviewed material on the nature of this term and the the academic framework that birthed it. It is possible that as part of this endeavour, some materials may have been removed or misplaced, but not maliciously. Wherever possible I have re-used and re-located all available sources to appropriate sections. Following the edit, I created a talk page entry explaining the rewrite and its purpose and inviting input and comment, so thank you to 11Fox11 for their engagement, although I wish they have simply pointed out any omission on the talk page, as my post invited. As of this moment, I have gladly re-included the source mentioned, and the section it concerns, "Politicisation of the term" is better for it. I still have not had much time to review this section and it still needs cleaning up. In contrast to the claim that I have set about to revert edits on this page, I have actually taken the page further in the direction that 11Fox11 was pushing when they removed the 'inappropriate' infobox. On reflection, I agreed that 11Fox11 was correct and also removed the related demographic information from the article. My edit was precisely aimed at steering the article away from the demographics of Jewish communities originating from the Arab World, which is covered in other articles, and back towards the topic of the specific term that this article addresses.

@Free1Soul: I had thought that books/journals without either a url or a doi constituted dead links. If this is not the case, it is possible that I used the dead link template inappropriately. I do now see that I tagged two archived links incorrectly, but you also removed at least one dead link tag from the definitely dead Voice of America story, as well as removed unaddressed citation needed tags, and removed the infobox again (without explanation). Iskandar323 (talk) 18:42, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

To Deepfriedokra: Hi again, and sorry for the trouble. I wasn't informed by 11Fox11 that they believed I had broken the 1RR rule prior to them raising this fresh AE, and Free1Soul has already rolled back that edit, along with others, so I cannot self-revert. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

To Deepfriedokra: Yes, I have been warned. I did not expect to get reported again before I had been warned, and it is playing havoc with the section redirects on this page, but yes, logged warning duly acknowledged. And had I been informed that someone believed I had broken 1RR again and been told to revert, before being reported, I would of course have reverted immediately. No questions asked. No administrators troubled. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

To Deepfriedokra: While we are on the subject of POV, and people taking offense, can I just draw you attention to where Free1Soul, in this talk page discussion that I raised to try to broach the subject of their more disruptive edits, such as deleting a stable infobox, not only used the N word in a deeply inappropriate and out of context manner (and frankly I find it offensive just seeing that on the page), but also compared a people being labelled Arab to someone being called the N word. Now I don't know about you, and I can't speak to the technicality of it, but I find that extraordinarily POV and offensive. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:12, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@HighInBC: Reversion was never the intention of my rewrite, which was a painstakingly conducted effort based almost entirely on existing sources from within the extant article. The two principal sources I used were Gottreich and Levy, both of which were pre-existing sources in the article that I simply extracted material from. Sources that were recently added, in edits such as this, including Yehouda and Hannan (2012) and Tal (2017), were also carefully retained. In the complaint itself, the principle argument produced to suggest that this was not a rewrite, but a reversion, appears to be the removal of the word 'contested', as part of an edit numbering in the thousands of bytes (and incidentally a word that does not obviously have a source). Regardless, if this was the principle problem, then it was a simple fix. In the event, I was given no chance to self-revert, and the editor that raised this AE has still not even commented on the use of the word in the relevant talk page discussion. I do now certainly understand the point that Nableezy is making when he says, "if you have been reverted once, stop editing for the day altogether." Meanwhile, the edit that is being counted as the first revert involved the restoration of an infobox that was part of the article long before I had anything to do with it, was content that had nothing to do with me, and which was removed without consensus (and for which no consensus was reached in this talk). The edit in which this was removed, a day earlier was in fact far more sweeping than this, so at very best, this was a partial revert. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@HighInBC: Hi again, I was not making excuses - only explaining my thought process. I understand that the rules are quite stringent, and breaches are inexcusable, and I was of course not going out of my way to break the 1RR rule amid an existing AE. If I had been alerted to the fact that other editors considered this edit an 1RR breach, I would have self-reverted without question, but I was not alerted and I was given no such opportunity. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:06, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Deepfriedokra: Yes, I immediately partially reverted by restoring the material that 11Fox11 first stated in the AE had been omitted. I was otherwise unaware which other material was being considered a revert and no full revert was requested. I was also unsure whether it was appropriate to perform a full revert after the AE had already been raised in case this could be construed as evidence tampering or attempting to mask the timeline of events from adjudicating administrators. By the time 11Fox11's broader concerns were stated, a full reversion of the material had already been made by Free1Soul. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:36, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Deepfriedokra May I ask what these behavioural issues (quite rude) are? I was cautioned a week ago for my poor choice of language, but have I conducted myself poorly in any way within the context of this current AE discussion? Surely you should not be calling upon examples that already fell within the body of evidence for the previous AE and which have already been underwritten with a logged warning?Iskandar323 (talk) 12:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Deepfriedokra My mistake, it seems I got confused. You'll have to forgive me a little for having my head a little bit boggled by these overlapping AE referrals. My comments in question were directed at the wholesale deletion of a stable infobox from the page. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:42, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Nableezy It would appear that the use of prejudicial terminology is of relatively little note for these proceedings. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

NB: I am perfectly happy to take a break from this tedious conflict area and engagement with the tendentious tendencies of its actors. It is sad, depressing and frankly a waste of breath, bytes and ultimately carbon (wherever the servers are) that there are a whole rank of editors who delight in nothing more than writing up other editors. Imagine how even just the energy spent on these multiple AE referrals could have been better spent on actual editing. And that is precisely what I will be doing - taking my energies elsewhere. There is little point engaging in a content area where undoing takes precedence over doing. But I resent the accusation of incompetence. I am a perfectly competent editor - please do look at my last hurrah, which 11Fox11 has ever so kindly pointed out, and see for yourself. In hindsight, I should have simply uploaded this the first time around, but instead, I unwittingly attempted a more comprehensive re-write and clean-up of what turns out to be an ideological minefield. Clearly, I have not adapted swiftly enough to the particularly cynical brand of counter-editing that appears all-pervasive in this conflict area. But perhaps I do not wish to. Better, mayhaps, to find an area of concern that is less of a toxic soup, and where a little more good can be done. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Hut 8.5: I respect your opinion, but, for the record, I didn't accuse any editors of vandalism. I consulted Selfstudier, an editor far more experienced than myself, who I had previously been discussing technical issues with, for their opinion on the matter. I stated that "my instinct was" that the infobox deletion constituted 'vandalism' ('possible vandalism' in the accompanying edit note), but also noted that I had not taken action and was conscious of my own need to steer clear of potentially questionable reverts. I never made a direct accusation of vandalism, and the experienced editor I consulted duly informed that this was an inappropriate line of thinking Re: the standing definitions of vandalism. I then raised the subject in a talk page discussion where I refrained from the use of the term vandalism following the feedback from Selfstudier. More than a day later, when no satisfactory response had been provided in the talk page as to why the infobox had been deleted (instead of improved or re-sourced), I then undertook a partial revert to restore it. My subsequent edit that day was what I can only describe as an extreme error of judgement, and you are right that I stated that I understood the 1RR rules, but clearly I slightly misunderstood the brightness of the bright red line. I had thought that a re-write on the scale that I undertook would not simply be construed as 'a revert of different material', but be taken in the context of the broader restructuring of the article that I attempted. I was evidently misguided in my actions and how they would be viewed, as well as overambitious in my undertaking. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:00, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Selfstudier[edit]

At this stage could someone point out to me where on the talk page (his or the article) Iskandar323 has been invited to self revert the alleged 1R breach as per usual practice?Selfstudier (talk) 17:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

In relation to the edit described in revert 1, could editor @Free1Soul: kindly explain the edit summary "(deadlinks miss placed. Provide citations and fix text)" in relation to the reverted edit, in particular the removal of tags and the infobox along with all of it's sources. I did see that, the following day, when Iskandar323 asked you to restore this material on the article talk page under the section "Removal of infobox and other unconstructive edits" it was only then that you (backed up by the complaining editor here) provided a variety of not entirely satisfactory after the fact explanations.Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
I do not know whether Iskander323 intended to canvass me to his side of the discussion, we had been discussing one thing and another on his talk page prior so it is possible it was merely a continuation in the same vein. If it was a canvassing attempt, then it was a signal failure as I did not even visit the page, merely advising the editor to take things forward on the talk page which I now see that he quite properly did. Is it merely coincidental that we have the same three versus one situation as in the complaint just adjudicated? Selfstudier (talk) 19:00, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
I have now had time to examine revert 2 and even if it was not the intent to revert, it is clear that is what has happened all the same. In mitigation, I do think the editor should have been given the opportunity to self revert, that is the custom.Selfstudier (talk) 09:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Free1Soul[edit]

Selfstudier, in this disruptive edit, Iskandar323 tagged around 20 refs as dead links. Most of those tags were wrong, either tagging live links (or links with archive versions) or tagging refs with no urls (books and journals), in which there was no url that was dead. Free1Soul (talk) 18:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Iskandar323 is pushing his pov over and over in the page. He is not listening. Free1Soul (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Deepfriedokra, Iskandar323 is not accurately portraying my comment. "Arab Jew" is a term that most Mizrahi Jews (the so labelled "Arab Jews") find offensive, this is what sources say. I did not use the N word. I said that labelling populations, that reject this term, as "Arab Jews" in the infobox was inappropriate - inappropriate in the same manner as adding a population box to the article Nigger (or for that matter Kike or any other offensive term that has an article on Wikipedia). The example article was one where it would be obvious a population box would be out of the question. The reasons why "Arab Jew" are offensive to us Mizrahim are complex and have many layers, but one important layer is that it erases Jewish ethnic identity, reducing the Jewish identity to a religion, putting those labelled outside the Jewish people and into a different ethnic group. Use of this term implies we are less Jewish than other Jews.

My point was that labelling people who do not identify themselves with this term in the infobox was unappropriate. Free1Soul (talk) 19:38, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Nableezy[edit]

The argument about the N-word is obscene (Arab Jew is in fact a widely used term, objected to by some, not most as the bs above claims), and a user who thinks that is a valid argument to make should think carefully about accusing others of "POV-pushing". As far as the reverts, Iskandr, you need to slow down. If you get reverted stop editing the article for a day. Boom, never have a 1RR violation again. nableezy - 21:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Um, the opinion piece in the Haaretz article makes the opposite point the user is making, namely that Arab is not derogatory and the response to being called "the Arab" would best be "yes, I am a proud Arab Jew". All that is quite beside the point though, there is a reason you will not find the n-word printed in most reliable sources except when the word itself is being discussed, and even then it is rarely spelled out. A user thinks it is appropriate to compare "Arab" to the n-word. You know which is more offensive? The one that even this uncouth foul mouthed African Arab won't spell out. Jesus F Christ yall are something else. nableezy - 14:44, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by Geshem Bracha[edit]

Most Sephardic Jews object to this language. Nableezy links to a book by Shenhav who is one of the promoters of this language. Shenhav noted himself in an article that: ""it is not surprising that very few Jews of Arab descent, in Israel, would label themselves ‘Arab Jews’. It has turned out to be the marker of a cultural and political avant-garde. Most of those who used it, did so in order to challenge the Zionist order of things (i.e., ‘methodological Zionism’; see Shenhav, 2006) and for political reasons (Levy, 2008)" in [27] (taken from article).

Most (around 90%) Mizrahi Jews live in Israel. Shenhav, who promotes the term, says "very few" of them would use this label and that use of this label is a political marker.

This is a very loaded language to use.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 09:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Deepfriedokra: parsing Shenhav, Mizrahi Jew using this language would mark himself as a post-Zionist or anti-Zionist. This is a small minority position in Jewish or Israeli politics.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 09:26, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Also, if you were to call a Mizrahi Jew "Arab", that would be seen as insulting:
  1. Stop Using 'Arab' as a Derogatory Term
  2. [28] - "Yeshua said they also ordered him to write unfavorable articles about Netanyahu’s rivals, giving them pejorative nicknames. Naftali Bennett, a former Netanyahu ally turned rival, was known as “the naughty religious one,” and former Finance Minister Moshe Kahlon, who is of North African descent, was called “smiley” and “the Arab.”"
--Geshem Bracha (talk) 09:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning Iskandar323[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Note that I closed the above request about Iskandar323 with a logged warning; this occurred two minutes ago and, as of now, has not yet been communicated to the user.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I don't give a hoot about any content dispute and the quality of sources and content should be determined via discussion and consensus. My only concern is, not with who agrees with what, but did Iskandar323 violate 1RR since the first thread started? If so, could Iskandar323 please acknowlege the now logged warning, self revert, and we all get on with our lives? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Free1Soul: In your own section, would you please post WP:Dif's of POV pushing? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:34, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
@Free1Soul: Would it be possible to address concerns raised by Iskander? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Noting "Re-adding Daniel Schroeter source on Mizrahi activism". So that's a partial self revert. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:06, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
As nableezy puts it, " As far as the reverts, Iskandr, you need to slow down. If you get reverted stop editing the article for a day. Boom, never have a 1RR violation again."
@Geshem Bracha: I think I understand what "a political marker" means. Could you briefly elaborate on its meaning? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I also am concerned about their temperamental suitability for editing in a contentious area. There is this “arguably vandalism/unscrupulous comment”. We do not characterise edits we disagree with in this manner, even in non contentious areas. Much less in this subject area. There are also complaints about misrepresentation. Even given the possibility of simple misunderstanding, the problem is the disruption caused. Clarification and discussion is preferred to other behaviors.
  • Despite the fact that the logged warning had not been given to the user at the time of the reverts, the user has had the 1RR rules painstakingly explained to them and they have acknowledged that in their previous(very recent) AE request. I feel this violation is actionable, we have already tried leniency and it seems to have not been effective. I feel they at the very least need a break from this topic area. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 22:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I am conflifted here. The warning went out minutes after this was posted, but 1RR is a bright line rule and it was explaned to them in the last thread. My gut feeling is to tell Iskandar323 that the next time they break 1RR, or really do anthing else objectionable in the israel-palistine topic area, they will get an indef vacation from the topic. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 10:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
    @Deepfriedokra: If people would like to try a time-limited tban now, I won't stand in the way. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 13:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[]
    Per 11Fox11's new evidence, I support a topic ban --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[]
  • I think this is actionable. On the 16th Iskandar323 left this comment saying they now understood 1RR, so I think it's fair to sanction for any 1RR violations committed after then. Both of those edits were reverts and the fact they relate to different material doesn't affect anything. Accusing good faith editors of vandalism just because you disagree with their edits isn't good either. I would support a time limited topic ban. Hut 8.5 08:16, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[]