Talk:Holodomor

POV

Newly added information is a rehash of old POV claims. Feel free to discuss. I will revert them wholesale unless someone provides necessary RS and proves these claims are legit. (Igny (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC))

Hello,

Thanks for doing this. I am new to Wikipedia and hope this will finally allow us to find a consensus on this matter.

I see how people talk here and will try to keep it in a similar manner, short and to the point.

So, a little preambula:

1) People turn to Wikipedia not because it takes a side, but because, as much as possible, it gives the information as it is. I often come here when looking at historical articles, simply because I know it will give both sides of the story.

2) For some reason, most people who claim Holodomor was a genocide (and indeed, those who claim :otherwise), talk only about "Ukraine" as a country. This is the wrong approach, as the original :claims about Holodomor as a genocide talked about a "genocide against Ukrainians", not "... of :Ukraine". In our age, this is hard to understand and often people get confused: when you say :"genocide against Ukrainians", people often think it means against the country of Ukraine, but :that is not true, and it is not where the number of dead come from.

...

Thus, when talking about Holodomor, it is important to keep in mind both point one and point two. :Point one is important so the claims of those who think it was a genocide are not the only ones :heard, for example; and point two is important when talking about the magnitude of the actual :event. Because, don't forget, the number of dead has nothing to do with it actually being a :genocide.

In regards to point one, then whether or not it was a genocide is relatively well attended to on :the page. Both arguements are given. But I sincerely feel there was a problem in regards to the :number of deaths.

Writing something such as "scholarly claims" list the dead at around 2, or 3 million, where as :"some claims" or "outdated claims" list the number of dead at 7 or 10 million does not give a :neutral bystander the same view on all numbers. They will naturally see "scholarly claims" and :think they are the only correct numbers.

So, now, some sources regarding the "higher" versions of the numbers and the (clearly overlooked) :view most people who claim it as a genocide have that it was not only in Ukraine, but against :Ukrainians.

I apologize if I don't source it correctly, I think the point will be clear, though.

http://www.history.vn.ua/book/history3/37.html

http://www.coolreferat.com/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%BC%D1%83_%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%96_%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%96%D1%97_%D0%B2_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D1%96_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C=2

^ Here, researchers who claim it to be a genocide write, regarding the number of dead, that "... :(based on the information), around 6-7 million dead seems to be the most propable (search "Цифра :6—7 млн. чоловік мабуть найбільше достовірна" in http://www.history.vn.ua/book/history3/37.html).

They also write that "... starvation did not only affect Ukraine, but also highly Ukrainian :populated areas in Kazakhstan, lower Povolzha (written as Нижнє Поволжя, I'm not sure what that :is in English?), the northern Caucuses, Crimea, and Kurschyna (English?).

From this source, it is written that in many regions of these are outside of Ukraine, during :the time, Ukrainians were the majority. That out of those killed here during Holodomor, :Ukrainians were approximately 70% of those killed. In some areas, they even constituted 87% of :the population(http://www.kavkaz center.com/ukr/content/2011/01/09/17142.shtml, look up "87% :(Темрюцький район)...", and also "...а загалом у сільській місцевості, яка була найбільше :охоплена Голодомором, українці становили 66,6%, то і відсоток українців серед жертв досягав :близько 70%". They state that as a whole, Ukrainians were 66.6% of the population in this area, :and 70% of the dead.

Keep in mind, of course, that the numbers regaring 3 or 4 million, from Kulhytsky or Snyder :mention that number being killed in Ukraine as a country, not Ukrainians overall.

Here, it is stated that outside of Ukraine, approximately three million Ukrainians were killed: :http://bibl.kma.mk.ua/pdf/istgolod/26/11.pdf

Here http://www.drohobych.com.ua/2010/11/26/natsionalizm-i-holodomor-v-ukrajini/, through looking :at similar things to what Kulchytsky looked at regarding change in population, it is stated that :7.5 million Ukrainians (inside of Ukraine) died.

Thus, the beginning of the article could look better if it said something like "... against :Ukrainians, primarily in the Ukrainian SSR and Ukrainian inhabited areas of the USSR", as writing :"in the Ukrainian SSR" can impliy, again, that it was against Ukraine, not Ukrainians, no?

Don't forget also, from the early 1900s, Ukrainian women had an average of 8 children :(eprints.zu.edu.ua/4189/1/демогр2009.pdf), with there being a very high infant mortality rate, :which made up to 2 of every 8 children die). Families of 12 children were also not uncommon. :Combine this with the population of Ukraine getting smaller by over 5 million from the late 1920s :untill the mid 1930s, and you see why even claims of 7 million inside of Ukraine are not exactly :"not scholarly".

Interesting also, both for giving more creditility to numbers such as 7 or 10 million killed, is :this population survey that the USSR said was from 1931: http://duhvoli.com.ua/resource/images/photogallery/20110517134131.jpg

It says as a whole, Ukrainians in the USSR were 81.1 million. That would mean they were the :majority in the USSR, with Russians being 77.7 million, and Belarussians being 4.7 million. :Again, this in itself does not proove anything, but it is a subjective factor that adds :credibility to similar claims and, would be interesting to include in the article. Here is :another source for that same information: http://ukranews.com/uk/news/ukraine/2011/05/19/43847. :By the end of Holodomor, Ukrainians were around 39 million. This doesn't mean that mant were :killed, but it could mean that because of Ukrainianization by the Soviet government that stopped, :less people considered themselves Ukrainian.

Here, Mr. Serhiyschuk and Mr. Borysenko, who have PHDs in history, mention 7-10 million killed. :http://kbulkin.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/borysenko-serhijchuk-holodomor/.

Thus, I think, to finally solve any debate that exists, it is important to give claims from both :sides of the spectrum (low, and high death numbers) an equal position (i.e. either write :something such as "it is hard to determine due to a lack of records, but somewhere between 4 and :7 million) or just leaving it as it is now, but giving both views in a manner people will look at :as exactly that: two views that are both relatively credible, not one credible and one uncredible. I.e., it isn't exactly the "flat earth" example here. There are lower numbers which have credability, and higher numbers which have credability. As for the 2.4 million, I cannot :find any sources for it, and most things I do find on the lower spectrum seem to be around 3 :million (in Ukraine). Most sources I have listed also say not 7.5, but 7 million.

This way, wikipedia maintains it's function as being the place people look when they are :introduced to a topic, before further researching it. It's fair to list both high and low :estimates, in otherwords, but not only high estimates, or only low estimates.

---

^ About the death toll.

Regarding the 20 million killed in Holodomor, the problem is that it is not possible to find this :source anywhere else: it is only available through an archive, and every other version of his :speech in Congress does not mention that. It very well could have been a mistranslation. He might :have been talking about repressions, and then mentioned Holodomor, and said 20 million. Or, he :meant Holodomor as not only 32-33, but also the other, smaller "Holodomors", after WW2 for :example. Again, no where, do any sources say 20 million people were killed in Holodomor. They say :as a whole, during the USSR (20-30 million is a common number there, for example, here :http://www.galinfo.com.ua/news/87888.html). I just don't think one mistranslated (possibly) quote :that does not exist anywhere else is enough to write something in wikipedia...

Ljudyna (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC). Ljudyna (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC).

See WP:WEIGHT: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". That means giving greatest weight to the views most commonly held by scholars. If you disagree with that policy then you are welcome to try and change it, but in the meantime, it must be followed here. TFD (talk) 04:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Very well said. That there are views most commonly held by scholars must be represented, even if scholars differ in their views.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Also, I, again, am not experienced at this: I would ask anyone who can to include this in the :article. It's very interesting, I'm surprised it's not here already: http://h.ua/story/153952/. :It is a document from 1933, during the Holodomor, where it is written: "cause of death: :Ukrainian" about a boy who died from hunger. Here is a photo: http://fotohost.jampo.com.ua/images/ed14f978e23ce59f5929a2537c551cc9.jpg (the "cause of death: Ukrainian" thing is at the bottom, the :final thing written).Ljudyna (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna

As 4.5 million is included in 5 million ( together with Kuban) and 7.5 million is included in "up to 10 million (some claims)" I have removed the unsubstantiated edits by Ljudyna. (Igny (talk) 20:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC))

As 7.5 million is a claim that is a scholarly estimate, it has been included. It is, indeed, very important to include all modern and scholarly estimates. Unsubstantiated edits by Igny have been removed. Ljudyna (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

Re "7.5 million". From the source you cited

1932-33 років у цілому завдав шкоди – 7,5 мільйонів жертв

That is 7.5 million total victims from Soviet famine of 1932–1933. Where do they claim 7.5 from Holodomor?? Besides, Drobovich's claims do not recent research or scholarly estimate make. (Igny (talk) 22:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC))

Some comments.

1. Let me remind you that per our policy, "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, if English sources of equal quality and relevance are available.", therefore, numerous references to Ukrainian newspapers or to some questionable web sites are hardly appropriate here.
2. The sources cited by Ljudyna do not create an impression that they have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", so, in addition to the fact that they are not English language sources, they are poorer quality sources, so they should not be used in this article.
3. I have been surprised to see that the attempts were made to downplay really reliable sources. Thus, the numbers presented by Wheatcroft have been described as "early estimates", although in actuality in his new works he did not reconsider his earlier figures. Interestingly, in his recent work he came to a conclusion that during the Soviet period the mortality was steadily and pronouncedly decreasing, so despite of few short surges of mortality, the overall effect of the Communist rule on the life expectancy was positive. (Stephen G. Wheatcroft. The Great Leap Upwards: Anthropometric Data and Indicators of Crises and Secular Change in Soviet Welfare Levels, 1880-1960. Slavic Review, Vol. 58, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 27-60)
4. Re Kuban. We must be consistent. If we want to write about Holodomor as the action directed against the Ukrainians as the nation, then the article should be re-written, because this theory is a minority views, or the Ukrainian nationalist POV, and should be represented as such. However, if we write about Holodomor as a part of Soviet Famine that took place within the borders of the Ukrainian SSR, Kuban figures must be excluded.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

My two cents:

There are certain issues at hand, and I will give them in detail. Because not everyone has time to read substantially large amounts of information, I will list them, then explain them, and then provide a brief summary.

As a bystander, and keeping in mind the large amount of people that hold each respective view, the following instances in the article seem rather ambiguous:

1)The entering of "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left;

2)The view that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" on the main page;

3) Writing that "...older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary".

and;

4) Writing that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches".

It is these four areas where the primary issues lie, and in that, the last remaining major disagreements in this articole.

Note, of course, that due to the partiality that exists between the questions of whether or not the Holodomor was a genocide, and the way both views are provided, editing of the article for such purposes is no longer an issue. A significant number of people held, and hold both of those views, and, rightfully so, both are represented.

All historical events should be able to be freely researched, and no one should be forbidden to ask questions regarding any historical event. Restrictions on the information flow regarding historical events takes away much of their credibility.

It was very correctly noted by Paul Siebert that those who view the Holodomor as a genocide do not view the events in Ukraine, and the deaths exclusively from starvation as that which the genocide is limited to. As such, and wary that many bystanders will come to this page searching for information regarding the genocidal view, it seems of cardinal importance to include the number of dead both for the (often) non-genocidal view (taking hunger deaths from Ukraine), and the genocidal view (taking all Ukrainian deaths from the entire USSR). It is precisely here where a key difference lies in the interpretation of the Holodomor.

In the same sense, it could also be misleading to write the "Ukrainian SSR" as the place the events took place. By any standard, perhaps, if an agreement cannot be found, it could be more accurate to make two articles all together: regarding the genocidal view, and the non-genocidal views respectively.

Important also, of course, is that in this same article Kulchytsky himself writes, regarding the data from censuses, that "... the demographic data were opened only in late 1980s". As such, it is not wise to completely ignore the conclusions reached by international commissions in both 1988, and 1990.

So, to address the issues mentioned above:

1)The entering of "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left;

- The primary problem here is that it gives an impression that all scholars think it is only 2.4-5 million (thus, taking into account only the deaths in Ukraine, and thus, not viewing it as a genocide), where as many scholars, such as Mr. Serhiychuk, or Mr. Borysenko - who both have PHDs in history - view it as being 7-10 million. So while technically, some scholars do estimate it to be 2.4 - 5 million, and some claims to estimate it to be 10 million, by this logic it is also true that "7-10 million is a scholarly estimate, where as 2.4 - 5 million are just 'some claims'".

A large part of this is the debate regarding the international commissions on the Holodomor, primarily, the ones from 1988, and 1990, which some scholars disagree with. Yet, not all modern scholars disagree with it, and this is very important to note. This can be noted here http://www.anti-crime.org/articles.php?ni=15080&print, here http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/955022.html, and here http://kbulkin.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/borysenko-serhijchuk-holodomor/. I should note, that these sources are from the Radio Free Europe website, which is funded by the United States, and helps spread democracy to countries such as Iran. The site "maidan" says similar things http://eng.maidanua.org/node/792, as does this Kiev newspaper http://www.day.kiev.ua/290619?idsource=171003&mainlang=eng.

Regarding Radio Free Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty

2, and 3): "...Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" (2), and "... The older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary." (3).

- Again, while some older estimates, that are higher than some lower estimates that exist today are sometimes cited in political commentary, much the same, older estimates, that are lower than higher estimates that exist today are also cited in political commentary. In as such, it is not possible to call this statement partial, unless it were to read something similar to "...the older, lower estimates are still often cited in political commentary, and the lower, higher estimates are also still citied in political commentary". Older numbers of 2 million, for example, are sometimes mentioned in place of higher numbers such as 3.3 million that are given by professor Snyder.

What I mean is that the way this is written gives an impression that only old, 50 year old inquiries believe up to 7-10 million died, and today, all scholars believe this to be false.

This in itself is not entirely true, either, because professor Komarnytsky, at his lecture at the University of Cambridge in Britain, also (with sources) agrees with the 7-10 million claim, saying that "... up to 8 or 9 million were killed in Ukraine and Kuban", and that "... there were more victims in Kuban than in Russia as a whole, because Kuban was more population dense". That scholar, contrary to what is written in this article by scholar Kulchytsky, says that Ukraine's population did not decrease a few hundre thousand, but by over 6 million. And when you keep in mind, as mentioned above, that the Ukrainian woman had an average of 8 children during the early 20th century, such a decline speaks for quite a bit.

In the same sense, and for the same reasons, it is not possible to say that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million", because recent research has also shown that it there could have been up to 9 million deaths in Ukraine itself.

4) Writing that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches".

- Our policy is that "...If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority...", it "...does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not...", and "regardless of whether you can prove it or not".

Keep in mind, that Yuschenko, who was who is claimed to have said this, does not speak English, and his original speech was in Ukrainian. It is not possible to find any source that confirms he said this, and it could very well have been a mistranslation. In fact, there is not even a source that shows 20 million Ukrainian dead in Holodomor anywhere on the internet, in any language. I would say, then, that such a view constitutes a viewpoint "...held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority...". Or, in any case, the wording should be more accurate, and reflect the one source that does exist, and read not "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches", but rather "...even twenty million was once cited in a political speech".

Brief summary:

1) It is not wise to write "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left, because, in just the same sense, you could write 10 million (scholarly estimates) 2.4 - 5 million (some claims);

2, 3) It is incorrect to write that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" and that "...older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary", because recent research also shows the estimates can be as high as 7-10 million, and, in the same sense, "older, lower estimates are still often citied in political commentary";

and,

4) It is not in practice with our referencing policies to write that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches", because it is an incredibly fringe view, that cannot be found anywhere else on the internet - on a translated and archived page, that itself is no longer available.

What I propose, then, is simply to include the works of all scholars, and all views that are held by massive amounts of people. Again, not everyone going to this page views the Holodomor as a genocide, which is why they will find more substantiality in claims like 2.4, or 4.5 million. In the same manner, not everyone going to this page agrees that Holodomor is not a genocide, and as such, it is important to include the numbers from not only other parts of the USSR, but first and formost by historians and scholars who believe it to be a genocide. The article, because there are differing opinions, must be written from a neutral view, as only claiming that 7-10 million Ukrainians were killed in a genocide will be just as wrong to many people as claiming that 2-4 million Ukrainians were killed due to economic policies.

Finally, do not forget that an exact number will never be reached, because there is simply a lack of documentation. This means that absolutely every claim regarding Holodomor deaths will be based largely on assumption. This means that the views of every scholar, provided that a large mass actually believe what they say, have an equal right to be mentioned.

...

PS: To Igny: Govorju na velykom i moguchom, esli nado, mozhna pysat' na nom. I tak mne kazhetsja, shcho pochti nikto, krome nas, etovo chytat ne budet'. Davajte vmeste nakonets reshat etu problemu. Ljudyna (talk) 05:09, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

We do not provide equal weight to all scholarship but "fairly represent[] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". You might want to read about why some scholars have come up with the higher numbers. TFD (talk) 05:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

We have a very clear policy regarding this, namely to be cautious, regarding sources, where "...proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOENG#Non-English_sources. I'm sure there exist many presumptions as to why some scholars have higher numbers, but on the same grounds, I'm sure there also exists presumptions as to why some scholars have come up with lower numbers. In addition, I agree with everything you've said, especially regarding the principle to "fairly represent[] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". As I was saying to Igny (and I do apoligize for not writing in English), I think it's time we finally solve this, similarly to how we solved the genocidal question in this same article. Ljudyna (talk) 05:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

We prefer English sources because they are more accessible to readers, and for no other reason. In some cases foreign language sources are preferable. But in order to provide more weight to these sources you would have to show that scholars give them that weight. TFD (talk) 05:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Citing numbers from 1988/1990 findings by some unnamed commissions is exactly what "citing older higher estimates in political rhetoric" means. That does not constitute recent research in no meaningful way. While we all value scholarly achievements by the historians you cite, their remarks do not contain any of the analysis of the figures or sources and could be summed up by "some historians are also citing older estimates". What you are engaged here is an OR and attributing too much weight to a particular POV. (Igny (talk) 07:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC))

It is not up to us whether or not these commissions are trustworthy, it is up to scholars, who study this material. I was under the impression that you understood Russian (and Ukrainian), and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

It is indeed a shame you have not answered the gross majority of what I wrote, and such behaviour is disappointing in a circle of discussion like this.

I am merely a neutral bystander, and I think my distrust of claims regaring 20 million Ukrainians being killed can attest to that. I am still waiting for credible sources regarding that, by the way, sources that do not constitute a "strong minority".

The biggest of these international commissions can be read about here: bibl.kma.mk.ua/pdf/istgolod/26/11.pdf. It was lead by an international team of lawyers, including, but not limited to, Dr. D. Draper - former judge during the Nurnberg trials; John Humphries - professor from Canada, also a former director of the UN Human Rights division, and many others. It was officially presented in 1992 in Kyiv. In short, their conclusions were that between 7 and 10 million Ukrainians were killed. Using, of course, democratic data - democratic data no less trustworthy then the democratic data used by historians who do not feel the Holodomor was a genocide.

Some scholars today agree with their findings, and some scholars do not.

There are also some major, major discrepencies. Kulchytsky claimed the population declined by less than 500 000, yet in the same sources listed above, and as noted by professor Komarnytsky at the University of Cambridge (in 2009, I should note), other sources (and again, demographic sources, that are official, and no less trustworthy than any other sources used) appear to show it declined by up to 5 million. And again, I repeat, that the average Ukrainian woman back then had 8 children. They had 8 children, yet it declined by 5 million. I don't think I need to comment.

It is fine to feel that some sources are more credible, but I am confident that the sources provided by scholars who view Holodomor as a genocide, and thus take the number of dead not only for Ukraine, but for Ukrainians as a whole, are most certainly credible enough to if not be presented equally, then to at least be presented in a greater manner than before.

I also await your answer towards my proposition of including this: http://h.ua/story/153952/. I have hopes that you too are a neutral bystander, and as someone more experienced with Wikipedia, you could explain that that photo is the death certificate of a little boy killed during the time of Holodomor, it is written "cause of death: Ukrainian". This, of course, does not prove anything about numbers killed or genocide, as he could have been attacked by a racist neighbour, for example. But I think it does have enough to do with the Holodomor to be included.

Here is the photo: http://fotohost.jampo.com.ua/images/ed14f978e23ce59f5929a2537c551cc9.jpg

Again, I hope we can find a diplomatic style solution for this, and include all credible sources. If not equally, then most certainly in a more objective manner than before. Surely, this is fair. We must, in all costs, avoid any reflection of POVs in the article. Ljudyna (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

You are referring to the International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–33 Famine in Ukraine (1983) which concluded that there were between 4.5 and 7 million victims, which is already reflected in the article. However, we would need later scholarship to confirm whether these conclusions have stood the test of time. TFD (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we don't. If someone has an RS contesting the figures, that source can be added, but the idea that every source one does not like must be reconfirmed is not found in any WP policy. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)