User talk:Centpacrr

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Last archive: June 11, 2011

Removal of template?

The term is included in the Template:Ethnic slurs, should it not be included on that template? --Funandtrvl (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't know why "Celestials" appears in the template, but I could not find it included in the listing of terms on the page Ethnic slurs and as far as I know the term was not used as or intended to be a "slur" on the Chinese, but is in fact a translation of a term they used to describe themselves. Centpacrr (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Thx for bringing it to my attention. I removed the term from the Ethnic slurs template also. Who knows why it was there in the first place?! --Funandtrvl (talk) 04:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome. Centpacrr (talk) 04:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Hershey Bears

Do you know where on the Hershey Bears website says Hershey Bears Hockey Club. I don't see it. I am a Hershey Bears fan and I hope you are one too. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

It is at the very bottom of every page on the site where its address and contact information is also located. It says: "Hershey Bears Hockey Club • 550 West Hersheypark Drive • Hershey, PA 17033 Phone: (717) 534-3380 • Fax: (717) 534-3383 HersheyBears@HersheyPA.com" Centpacrr (talk) 15:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I see it perfectly, but just because it says it under contact information does not mean that the team is really called Hershey Bears Hockey Club. That name is probably used for when you want to contact the team like writing a check or a letter to the team itself. Peoria Rivermen, Norfolk Admirals, Rochester Americans, Springfield Falcons, Oklahoma City Barons, and Texas Stars have the same problem too. Here is a list on what it says on these 6 AHL teams’ websites.

1. Peoria Rivermen- Under contact information says Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club. The article for this team does not say Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club in the first line. It just says Peoria Rivermen.

Here’s a link: Peoria Rivermen Contact Page

2. Norfolk Admirals- Under contact information says Norfolk Admirals Hockey or Norfolk Admirals Hockey, Inc. The article for this team does not say Norfolk Admirals Hockey or Norfolk Admirals Hockey, Inc. in the first line. It just says Norfolk Admirals.

Here’s a link: Norfolk Admirals Contact Page

3. Rochester Americans- Under contact information says Rochester Americans Hockey Club. The article for this team does not say Rochester Americans Hockey Club in the first line. It just says Rochester Americans.

Here’s a link: Rochester Americans Contact Page

4. Springfield Falcons- At the bottom of the team’s website, just like the Hershey Bears website says Springfield Falcons Hockey Club. The article for the team does not say Springfield Falcons Hockey Club in the first line. It just says Springfield Falcons.

Here’s a link: Springfield Falcons Site

5. Texas Stars- At the bottom of the team’s website, just like the Hershey Bears website says Texas Stars Hockey Team. The article for this team does not say Texas Stars Hockey Team in the first line. It just says Texas Stars.

Here’s a link: Texas Stars Homepage

6. Oklahoma City Barons- At the bottom of the team’s website, just like the Hershey Bears website says Oklahoma City Barons Hockey Club. The article for this team does not say Oklahoma City Barons Hockey Club in the first line. It just says Oklahoma City Barons.

Here’s a link: Oklahoma City Barons Site

7. Hershey Bears (Old Hershey Bears Archive Copy Website from Web.Archive.ORG)- At the bottom of this page, just like the current Hershey Bears website says HERSHEY BEARS Hockey Club. If this version of the Hershey Bears website was still up, what would the first line of the article say? Would it be HERSHEY BEARS Hockey Club is a professional ice hockey member club of the American Hockey League, and is currently the top affiliate of the NHL Washington Capitals then?

Here’s a link: Old Hershey Bears Website- The site will appear with The Internet Archive Wayback Machine Information. After it appears, you then click on "Impatient?"

This is perfect evidence that the team is not called Hershey Bears Hockey Club. It’s just called Hershey Bears. When I played for my high school baseball team which I hate high school sports now was called Hamilton Hornets Baseball, the name that was used as contact information for writing checks was Hamilton Baseball. The name Hershey Bears Hockey Club is probably used if you want to contact the team.

This is not like states names for example Pennsylvania is really called Commonwealth of Pennsylvania ,but I do here people say both Pennsylvania and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. For the Bears, my favorite team, I only here Hershey Bears, Bears, or the Chocolate and White. I don't here Hershey Bears Hockey Club. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 21:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

It looks like you are a hockey reporter and a former head coach I think which is cool. I love that Stanley Cup picture tough. I wish in the future someday that I would also be drinking out of the Cup. I never been to the Spectrum tough which is really sad. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 23:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

• I have been closely involved with the Hershey hockey Club in one way or another for over forty years (I am even the answer to one of the questions in the Bears' "Trivial Pursuit" board game that the Hershey Bears Fan Club put out some years back) and over the years have been asked by the organization to write numerous historical features on Hershey hockey for their publication including, among others, a 60th Anniversary History of AHL Hockey in Hershey in 1998, a 6,000-word history of Bears Hockey at Hersheypark Arena (and create the cover for) the special program magazine the Club published for the last regular season game at HPA on April 7, 2002, as well as to write the eulogy for the special memorial program the Club published on February 27, 2005, honoring Frank Mathers, so with respect I am not coming to this without a background or understanding of what the correct name of the Club is. The whole, encyclopedically correct name of the club is (and always has been) "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club". This is not only what it says on every page of the club's own website, but is also the name that appears on the June 28, 1938, franchise certificate as a Member Club of the AHL, the Club's stationary, business cards, publication © information, and also the way it is listed in the phone book. The issue of the correct name of the Club has also been raised earlier in the history of this article and was resolved as using "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" as the correct and proper name. What other member clubs of the AHL choose to call themselves is also irrelevant to what the club in Hershey calls itself. The name "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" is not a "problem" -- it is just the correct and proper name that it has had for over seventy years. Centpacrr (talk) 23:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Yep, your right. Lets just hope that no other minor league hockey team has Hockey Club added to its name. The Hershey Bears deserve to be the only team to have the Hockey Club name. I forgot about the Toronto Maple Leafs article. I was wondering if you like the set up on how it says Toronto Maple Leafs and then Toronto Maple Leaf Hockey Club. I know it says Toronto Maple Leaf Hockey Club instead of it saying Toronto Maple Leafs Hockey Club. This is a suggestion and I'm not forcing you go with it. The Bears History will always be in your hands and nobody will not take that away from you. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

You might also be interested that in all the hundreds of times I called the late Frank Mathers during the years he was President/GM of the Bears, he always answered the phone exactly the same way: "Hockey club, Mathers." I also invite you to visit my informal hockey history site HockeyScoop.net if you would like to read some more about the history of Hershey hockey and the AHL in Pennsylvania. (I would be interested in your comments.)

As for the Leafs' article, I really leave that to folks who are more expert in that team and concentrate my hockey team contributions on WP to the pro teams that have been located in Philadelphia (eleven) since 1927 and Hershey (three) since 1932 about which I have been writing and broadcasting since the early 1970s. Centpacrr (talk) 02:10, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I remember that site. That's a good website. So, which team are you broadcasting now? Hersheybearsfan (talk) 02:22, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I have worked on the Flyers' telecasts (talent stats in the booth, etc) for more than twenty years and also do the same on national network telecasts for NBC, VS, NHL International (Stanley Cup Finals), and others. I have worked more than 3,000 professional hockey games over the past four plus decades and have also written three books on hockey. (See my WP User Page for details.) Centpacrr (talk) 02:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I read it more. It is very interesting. The Flyers are actually my NHL team. Too bad the Bears are not with them anymore. Though, I'm glad the Flyers are affiliated with the Trenton Titans of the ECHL again. I hope the tickets are not sold out by now. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 02:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Dating

It's simply inconsistent to have multiple date formats. This is to assist a reader. If the article is about an international subject, that dating convention prevails for the entire article. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

The date of the article is essentially a "direct quotation" from the cited source, just like the title of the article is, and should be consistent with source from which it is quoted. (If you have some specific guideline that supports your position please direct me to it.)

M/D/Y vs D/M/Y in this article:

When this article was created in March, 2004, the format correctly selected was M/D/Y and that was retained (as per WP:MOS guidelines 2.4.1.2 and 2.4.1.3) for almost FOUR years until you arbitrarily changed that formatting on January 28, 2008 without either noting so in your edit summary or opening a section in the article's Talk page. I eventually restored the original formatting last October and it remained that way for ten months without complaint until three days ago when it was again arbitrarily reverted to D/M/Y.

With respect to retaining original and/or existing date formatting (§2.4.1.3) WP:MOS says:

Retaining the existing format

• If an article has evolved using predominantly one format, the whole article should conform to it, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic.

• The date format chosen by the first major contributor in the early stages of an article should continue to be used, unless there is reason to change it based on strong national ties to the topic.

• Where an article has shown no clear sign of which format is used, the first person to insert a date is equivalent to "the first major contributor".

... and with respect to "strong national ties" (§2.4.1.2) it says:

Strong national ties to a topic

• Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country [NOT country of origin of the topic] should generally use the more common date format for that nation. For the US this is month before day; for most others it is day before month. Articles related to Canada may use either format consistently.

• Sometimes the customary format differs from the usual national one: for example, articles on the modern US military use day before month, in accordance with military usage.

Clearly the "English-speaking" with which this article has the closest "national ties" is the United States as the Graf Zeppelin never visited any other English-speaking country.

That being the case, the arbitrary change made by Ohconfucius to change the dates to d/y/m (and your subsequent reversion of my attempt to correct that error was contrary to the guidelines of the WP:MOS.

• In summary: The WP:MOS guidelines state that the date formatting is based on a) the format used as the article was created and evolved, and; b) if applying the "strong national ties" to change that, the ties are to an "English-speaking" country for articles in English, not the country of origin of the subject of the article. The d/m/y format for an article on the Graf Zeppelin in German would be fine, but based on both of the WP:MOS guidelines on dates as they relate to this article in English, the correct formatting is clearly m/d/y. Centpacrr (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Utter nonsense, this is an international article which you have simply put your "stamp" on (in more ways than one, as philatelic information seems to be an interest) and have made it evident you wish to be the sole editor. If the date format which only you believe was correct, was continued, it does not match any other international subject. My edits have been strictly line edits as I hoped to help you see some of the common errors that were being propagated. I expect you will simply revert to your preferred format anyway. FWiW (sigh...) Bzuk (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Bill, please just READ the two guidelines about date formatting above. They say nothing at all about an "international subject" as having anything whatsoever to do with the date formatting. Instead the guidelines say that is to be determined by a) how the article was created and "evolved" (in this case over a period of four years from 2004 to 2008), and that b) that formatting is to be retained unless there is some competing "strong national interest" relating to an "English-speaking" country to the contrary.

On both counts, the guidelines clearly and objectively support M/D/Y over D/Y/M.

If you can direct me to some other specific guideline (such as one about "international subjects" controlling text formatting) that either contradicts WP:MOS 2.4.1.2 and 2.4.1.3 or that supports your contention that "If the date format which only you believe was correct, was continued, it does not match any other international subject" then please do so. I am always willing to learn, Bill, but you need to provide me with something specific.

I don't want to be the "sole" editor of this (or any other WP) article and never have. However as do you and most other serious WP editors, there are certain subjects about which each of us have a great deal of knowledge which we are willing to share with the community. You are clearly an expert on Canadian and many other aircraft, for instance, and I have enjoyed reading (and learned a good deal) from reading your contributions. I am well versed in professional ice hockey (forty+ years professional experience, three books, attended, covered, and/ broadcast 3,000+ games), railroad history (including operating a 10,000+ page website and written four books), postal history (a large personal collection of covers, library of books, and years of study), and a few other fields. Please accord me the same level of respect and good faith for my contributions regarding subjects about which I have considerable background, interest, and knowledge, as I gladly do to you.

As for the importance of the "philatelic" information you should understand that if it were not for the revenues generated by the Graf's (and for that matter, the Hindenburg's) philatelic activities (many of their flights were made either partially or exclusively for that purpose), neither airship could have possibly survived financially. It was, in fact, the millions of pieces of cacheted mails that the two airships (as well as the Graf Zeppelin II) carried between 1928 and 1939 that literally "paid the bills" for all three. The Zeppelins are also far better known today for their philatelic history than for carrying passengers.

We are both clearly strong personalities and "stick to our guns" when we feel the facts support our positions. I admire that in you as I do in many others both in WP and in life. I have given you my reasons for my position in this matter (as I have before in others) and cited the specific WP guidelines and the history of the page that support it. I am always willing to be "proved wrong" (I certainly have been many times in my life), but FWIW you will need to give me a stronger argument then "utter nonsense" to convince me of your position. I'm sure you would not accept such an argument from me or anyone else, nor should you. Centpacrr (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• PS: How, by the way, do you define an "intertional article" or an "international subject"? "International" with respect to what? Centpacrr (talk) 02:00, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

B, I'm away from my "desk" for two-three days, shooting at the Fargo AirSho, (yes, they actually spell it that way) and will get back to you in more detail, but basically, if an article is about a non-US subject and is of German origin, there is very little likelihood that it could be considered one with predominant or "strong ties to any particular" country other than Germany. The LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin had a rich and storied history and unlike the ill-fated "sister" ship, did not become associated solely with its US visits. (You may recall, I had some reservations when a campaign was started to identify the LZ 129 Hindenburg as a US-centric subject, but at least there was some slight agreement that Hindenburg was mainly known in the public perception for its fiery demise in the United States.) FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:18, 12 August 2011 (UTC).

Thanks for your explanation, but I still don't see how that conforms in any way to the wording of WP:MOS guidelines on date formatting noted above. Those guidelines clearly say that an article should retain the formatting under which it was originally created (March 31, 2004) and/or later evolved (2004-2008) which in both cases for the LZ 127 article was M/D/Y. The only exception to that is based on "strong national ties", but the guidelines also clearly say that for English language articles this is exclusively limited to national ties to only "English-speaking" countries, not the country of origin of the topic of the article itself if that is other than English-speaking. The only English-speaking country to which the Graf had any ties at all is the US which uses M/D/Y as well. Therefore under both guidelines, M/D/Y is the only date formatting that conforms to the WP:MOS. Centpacrr (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Br, please email me ("off the reservation"), as I completely forgot your connection to the NHL may be very useful in my next writing project, an article about the new Winnipeg Jets logo and its origins, focusing on the aviation motif employed. You can find my email by going to my home page... FWiW, I would be interested in your insights as the logo is becoming the subject of a minor "tempest in a teacup" article now twice featured in our local tabloid... See: article Bzuk (talk) 14:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC).

Bill I'm afraid I don't see your email address on your WP user page. You can provide it to me "off the reservation" through the email link to me on my hockey history website, HockeyScoop.net. Centpacrr (talk) 18:30, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Hershey Bears Membership?

Since you worked with the Bears organization for many years, I was wondering if there is such thing that in order for the Hershey Bears or any other team in the AHL to play in the league, a team has to have a membership or a membership application in order for them to participate. If there is such thing as an AHL membership or AHL membership application, can the Hershey Bears or any other team in the AHL can renew their membership. If the Bears played in the ECHL instead of the AHL, the ECHL will sometimes call the Hershey Bears Hockey Club the Hershey Bears Membership or simply Hershey Membership. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 21:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

File:IAHL consolidated.jpg

The Philadelphia Record. June 30, 1938

The Bears (as do every other professional sports team) became a "member club" of their league by acquiring a franchise which permits it to operate a club in that league. The Bears' franchise was granted to the business entity called "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" by the AHL (then operating as the I-AHL) at a meeting of the Board of Governors held in New York City on June 28, 1938. The franchise is perpetual unless suspended, revoked for cause, or sold/transferred to another owner/franchisee. They do not need to be "renewed" by the franchisee and are administered under the AHL's Charter, League Rules, and By-Laws. Centpacrr (talk) 22:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see, back then they didn't use the word membership, they used the words member club or club instead. Do you think it's possible if a hockey market turned in their membership and the league issued that market a new membership, will that hockey market still be considered the same hockey franchise? There is a similar situation with the Trenton Titans returning. The Titans re-entered the ECHL with a new membership after the suspension of operations of the Trenton Devils which operated under a pervious membership that is unrelated to the new membership which they turned in that old membership to the league. The people who are writing the Trenton Titans article are confused if this hockey team is still the same franchise that played as the Trenton Devils or if it's a completely new franchise. The reason for this confusion is that the ECHL itself uses the word membership alot when they have an article on their website about one of their teams. The ECHL is the only pro hockey league that uses this word. The other pro hockey leagues including the AHL doesn't use this word. The team records from the Trenton Devils were transfered to the Titans. That's basically what I know and the other people who are writing the Titans article know so far. Hersheybearsfan (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little unclear as to what exactly your confusion is, or what you have been reading that has caused it. Sports "Leagues" and their "member clubs" are related but different entities. Professional sports "leagues" are generally organized as not-for-profit "associations" which are jointly owned by, exist to support, and which operate/administer the playing schedules and other joint business activities, of their self perpetuating membership of franchisees which own and operate the league's for-profit "member clubs". A franchise gives its owner the right (or "license") to operate in a defined geographical area to the exclusion of all other member clubs in that league and thus protects that club from market encroachment and competition from within the league. Centpacrr (talk) 04:15, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The league uses the word membership instead of member club in alot of their press releases. The league sometimes had called the Trenton Devils the Trenton Membership. Currently, the league sometimes calls the new Titans by that same name also instead of calling them the New Trenton Membership. Here is the article on the Titans returning and another article (comment) that a fan took off the ECHL website about the Trenton Devils suspends operations and that the league is in the process of reviewing potential options for the Trenton Membership for the 2011-12 season.

Article: The Trenton Titans Returned

Comment: Trenton Devils Suspends Operations/ECHL in process of reviewing potential options for the Trenton Membership for the 2011-12 season

Posted by Hersheybearsfan (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2011 (UTC)