Talk:Gilgamesh in the Outback

Original publication

Outside of the pages of Wikipedia, there's zero dispute about where this story first appeared. Note that the Locus Fiction Index, which is as about as definitive as things get for the genre, lists "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as reprinted from IASFM, while all the other stories in the volume are identified as originals [1] [2]. And, since you're now claiming that a second one of AgBerg's Gilgamesh novellas was original to the anthologies, perhaps you'll tell us which one. "Gilgamesh in Uruk", which appeared in IASFM six months before the anthology appeared [3]? Or "The Fascination of the Abomination", which ran in IASFM merely three months earlier [4]? This link might also be of value to you [5]. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

• xxxxx

Locus isn't consistent. To quote:

To the Land of the Living, a mosaic adapted from two novellas that originally appeared in the Heroes in Hell anthology series, is a much lighter affair, but thoroughly enjoyable.

Locus also is not a reliable source. The only reliable source is the Permissions Page or Copyright Information Page which appears at the front of every book published. I have a copy of Rebels in Hell here though any book would do, and this is exactly what is on the Permissions page:

REBELS IN HELL

This is a work of fiction. All of the characters and events in this book are fictional, and any resemblance to real people or events is purely coincidental.

Copyright © 1986 by Janet Morris

All rights reserved, including the right to reproduce this book or portions thereof in any form.

A Baen Books Original

In Canada distributed by PaperJacks Ltd.,
330 Steelcase Road, Markham, Ontario

First Printing, July 1986

ISBN: 0-671-65577-9

Cover art by David Mattingly

Printed in Canada

Distributed by
SIMON & SCHUSTER
TRADE PUBLISHING GROUP
1230 Avenue of the Americas

New York, N. Y. 10020

Assuming I didn't make any typos, that is accurate. Do you see anything in the Permissions/Copyright page about Gilgamesh in the Outback being a reprint in Rebels in Hell? No you don't, because it wasn't. Now go get something like the "Science Fiction Hall of Fame" off your book shelf, and look at the Permissions/Copyright page. The entire thing says "Originally printed" for every single story. This is a legal necessity.

If the Silverberg and Benford stories were reprints the various Hell volumes would have had to indicate this on the Permissions/Copyright page. Since it wasn't indicated on the Permissions/Copyright page they were not reprints. Basic first grade logic.

Permissions/Copyright pages exist for legal reasons. They lay out who or what is responsible for what appears in a book. This allows anyone who has a complaint to know who to contact, and if necessary who to sue. Most books are published without any issues, and then you come to the odd one like John David California's 60 Years Later: Coming Through the Rye.

At this point I'm going to get a bit nasty. Sorry, but you've asked for it. You seem to be trying to educate Janet Morris about fine points of law on reprints, and what this requires in the way of permissions. Janet Morris has been an editor for a damned long time. Sit back and think. She's forgotten more about this than you will ever know.

Exactly how mad do you wish to make her? From her comment on the Heroes in Hell discussion page I suspect she is damned near ready to call in the lawyers.

Oh, and the Heroes in Hell discussion page says that this article was merged into the Heroes in Hell article. By bringing it back from the dead you may cause Wikipedia's system some problems. UrbanTerrorist (talk) 19:03, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Both publications of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" have a July 1987 publishing date. To call a work as "originally published," one would need citations of such things as printing and distribution records, appearance dates at newsstands and bookstores, all of which would be difficult. I would suggest avoiding this unnecessary controversy by simply stating the facts: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1987 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published by Baen Books." I have listed the works alphabetically by title. To claim that the work was "originally" published in Asimov's implies that Silverberg wrote it for Asimov's first and then Janet Morris, the Rebels in Hell editor, reprinted it in her anthology. This allegation requires a citation. To support a reprint in Rebels in Hell one would have to look at Silverberg's Rebels in Hell contracts and his Asimov's contracts - again, another citation. But why go to this unnecessary work when for WP purposes a statement of the actual publishing history is sufficient? To belabor the "originality" claim raises issues of intellectual property and even libel, since they raise questions of the editors' skills. This article should state the facts simply and avoid potential legal claims. Dokzap (talk) 05:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

Correction: Both publications are for July 1986. The suggested edit would be: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published in July 1986 by Baen Books." Dokzap (talk) 04:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

Except for the inconvenient fact that the cover date for Asimov's, as for just about all newsstand-distributed magazines, is the date it goes offsale. The actual publication date for this issue of Asimov's was June 3, 1986. The actual publication date for the August issue of Asimov's was July 1, 1986. The declared publication date for Rebels in Hell is also July 1, 1986. As I've pointed out elsewhere, with multiple citations, Asimov's has been reporting its publishing schedule virtually since it began publishing in the 1970s. You've been published in the magazine; just check your file copy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

• • • • • I would suggest adding this paragraph from Robert Silverberg explaining the origin of his story:

"This fits (more or less) into the shared universe of Hell lorded over by C.J. Cherryh and Janet Morris, though it's not mentioned in this book (probably due to somebody's contracts with somebody else). It continues the adventures of the mythical king into a strange version of the afterworld. I call it strange because it does not fit completely with any religious vision of an afterlife. In the other Hell books, there is a basic Christian slant, with demons presiding over the dead and occasional references to a satanic being in charge, but Hell is not just for sinners. Everyone is there, from Hitler to the saints, from the beginning of the human race to sometime in the 21st century. Silverberg takes a more general view, and the Christian elements of Cherryh and Morris's scenario are not present, and in fact this book stands a little outside the general tone of the rest of the series. "One of the basic ideas of the Hell books is that once a person is there, it's forever. If you get killed you come back in a new body after a short time. Another basic idea is that there is no way out. Gilgamesh makes it his quest to find a way out of Hell, a way back to Earth. The irony is that in life, his quest was to make it to the land of the dead to be with his friend Enkidu, and now that he's there, he wants to leave, though he still seeks Enkidu. "The book started as the novella Gilgamesh in the Outback in Rebels in Hell and in that form was nominated for Nebula Award for best novella, 1987. Chapters 1-5 are that novella. Chapters 7-11 were published as The Fascination of the Abomination in Angels in Hell. The title character of Lord of Darkness features prominently in this book as well. I've read a number of the other books in the Hell series, and while they're sometimes enjoyable, I'm not sure I can recommend them. Cherryh's stories are particularly grating to me (which is unusual as she is one of my favorite writers), with their idea that only the famous people of history are important and ordinary people don't even rate bodies in Hell (this is not the way it works in Silverberg's Hell stories, or even many of the other writers in this shared universe). (Robert Silverberg, http://www.majipoor.com/work.php?id=1190Dokzap (talk) 02:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

Of course it can't go into the article. First of all, dropping in a big block of text like this in would violate WP:NFCC, and probably be an overt copyvio. Second, it's quite apparent that Silverberg didn't write it and it therefore can't be presented as his own views. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:40, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and any other interested editors - You failed to respond to the following post by Dokzap which would solve this dispute, allow corresponding edits to be made on all affected pages and everyone could move on:

"The suggested edit would be: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published in July 1986 by Baen Books." Dokzap (talk) 04:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap"

Thus, there would be no perceived insult to either Mr. Silverberg or Ms. Morris and the Heroes in Hell shared word/universe, and the information would be completely accurate, since the story WAS published in both with the same publication date of July 1, 1986. Trying to prove this many years later which one was first seen by a human eye (outside of the involved publishing/distributing entities) is not possible due to issues of which you have been apprised before: advance copies for reviewers, early shipped copies to sellers, actual date of receipt by subscribers, etc.; to continue to insist you can determine which came first is sophistry. Wikipedia may not be about the "truth" but I think everyone believes it is at the very least factual and, hopefully, accurate. Hulcys930 (talk) 03:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

And that's why there are reliable sources including the academic/library reference, the copyrights permissions page, and the official copyright office records saying otherwise, not to mention the various corroborating if not definitive sources. And, of course, without explanation, you have once again misstated the magazine publication date, which was June 3, 1986. July 1, 1986 was the date of publication for the following, August issue. You're misunderstanding the cover date for a newsstand-distributed magazine, which indicates the date when the issue is to be removed from sale, an odd mistake for a published genre author to make. Even UrbanTerrorist acknowledged this point. Besides, Dokzap's argument rests on his erroneous claim that this reference [6], which says quite plainly "First published in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine," doesn't use the words "first published". Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

• • • • • • • I appreciate Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's citations adding information such as issue sell dates, which helps to the bibliographic understanding of the story's appearance. My suggestion stuck to the publication dates of record, however. "Published in the July 1986 Issac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine" is precise, because that is the magazine edition in which it appears. Note that this is important, since the magazine publication date on the spine/cover is the one used by the Nebula and Hugo awards. Using the "sell by" or "magazine distribution" date, Gregory Benford's Newton Sleep, published in the January 1986 Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, would technically be a December 1985 publication. That would make it ineligible for 1986 awards, however. (There was a period when SFWA rules had rolling eligibility or the author could expess a preferred edition, however; I can't recall what the rules were in 1985-1986, although if one cared he could look it up.) Most bibliographies will use the month and date on the spine, cover, and table of contents page because, well, that's what it says.

If it pleases Hullaballoo Wolfowitz to note the earlier sell-by date, and to note that one citation says "first published," with a note to that citation, I do not object to that additional bibliographic citation. My suggestion was to make a simple, precise, non controversial citation. Note that the issue of "first published" or "originally published" is of limited utility, though, since Mr. Silverberg's quasi-official Web page, and his approved commentator, Jon Davis, has established the provenance of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as having been written as part of the Heroes in Hell/Rebels in Hell series. Saying the work was "first published" in Asimov's does not take away from its creation as part of the Heroes in Hell/Rebels in Hell series -- unless one wants to deny the Majipoor.com citation.Dokzap (talk) 21:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

I found the following refutation of Mr. Wolfowitz' characterization of the "Gilgamesh In The Outback" information in a "reliable source" that brings into question his bias in the issue that started this entire debacle:

"The following information was edited into the Gilgamesh In The Outback page, along with the message to Mr. Wolfowitz, by someone not familiar with Wikipedia. However, in an abundance of caution that the information will be removed from the page at any moment, I apologize for the length but due to the subject matter I have no other choice and am copying the information here for the edification of the other editors: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hulcys930 (talk • contribs) 07:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

DELIBERATELY PRESENTING SELECTIVE AND MISLEADING INFORMATION AKA REWRITING HISTORY

The following information was edited into the Gilgamesh In The Outback page, along with the message to Mr. Wolfowitz, by someone not familiar with Wikipedia. However, in an abundance of caution that the information will be removed from the page at any moment, I apologize for the length but due to the subject matter I have no other choice and am copying the information here for the edification of the other editors:

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: I want to apologize in advance for making these comments here, but there is no room to address these issues in the edit summary, so I will make them here and you can modify it. I think this comes under the WP "Ignore All Rules" rule. Anyway you keep reverting my edits and this last time you claimed my edit summary is utterly false and without credibility. I take that as an affront. I made my edits on the 23rd and you reverted them 3 times. You said my work was inaccurate based on changes YOU made to the source Gilgamesh in the Outback article on the 22nd that I had not even seen. The last time I looked at Gilgamesh in the Outback - you had not added the Plot Summary. Now that I see what you have done, I believe you have completely left the concept of NPOV behind and are actively working to skew the facts. You added the following to the Gilgamesh in the Outback article:

Robert Silverberg wrote that he was "drawn into" writing a story for for the "Heroes in Hell" project. While he remembered that the central concept of the series was "never clearly explained" to him, he noted the similarity of "Heroes in Hell" to Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld works, and decided "to run my own variant on what Farmer had done a couple of decades earlier." After writing "Gilgamesh in the Outback," he decided that, since the story "was all so much fun," to write two sequels, "The Fascination of the Abomination" and "Gilgamesh in Uruk." In writing those stories, as Silverberg recalled, he "never read many of the other 'Heroes in Hell' stories", and had "no idea" of how consistent his work was with that of his "putative collaborators"; instead, he had "gone his own way . . . with only the most tangential links to what others had invented."[6]

You injected nuance and insinuation with your selective choice of particular words and their quotation marks to take the true meaning out of context.

What Mr. Silverberg actually wrote was this (your source - same page - the actual wording - First Paragraph)

"During the heyday of the shared-world science-fiction anthologies, back in the mid-1980's, I was drawn into a project called Heroes in Hell, the general premise of which was (as far as I understood it) that everybody who had ever lived, and a good many mythical beings besides, had been resurrected in a quasi-afterlife in a place that was called, for the sake of convenience, Hell. The concept was never clearly explained to me - one of the problems with these shared-world deals - and so I never fully grasped what I was supposed to be doing. But the idea struck me as reminiscent of the great Philip Jose Farmer Riverworld concept of humanity's total resurrection in some strange place, which I had long admired, and here was my chance to run my own variant on what Farmer had done a couple of decades earlier."

The second paragraph described Gilgamesh's character development and companion characters.

The third paragraph - again verbatim:

"It was all so much fun that I went on to write a second Gilgamesh in Hell novella, featuring the likes of Pablo Picasso and Simon Magus, and then a third. I never read very many of the other Heroes in Hell stories, so I have no idea how well my stories integrated themselves with those of my putative collaborators in the series, but I was enjoying myself and the novellas (which were also being published in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine) were popular among readers. "Gilgamesh in the Outback," in fact, won a Hugo for Best Novella in 1987, one of the few shared-world stories ever to achieve that."

I am a Commissioned Officer in the United States Army. I know the various and sundry meanings of the word "Commission." What the first paragraph does do, is corroborate, directly from Robert Silverberg, that "Gilgamesh in the Outback" was commissioned for the series Heroes in Hell - the point I keep trying to make in the Heroes in Hell article. He signed a contract to produce an original story for the series. The third paragraph corroborates that - oh by the way - it was ALSO published in Asimov's - not originally published there. It was written for the book, with the magazine sale in the same month a first serial sale giving Mr. Silverberg extra income. I used a different source to talk to the pedigree of the story on the Heroes in Hell site - Silverberg's quasi-official website. Your source is better in that it tells the truth directly with his words, rather than his complicit blessing which you discount. Your insinuations make it sound nefarious, that Mr. Silverberg was somehow lured into participating in this lowly endeavor, while sharing the spotlight with other Hugo winning authors who wrote in this series such as CJ Cherryh and George Alec Effinger or Hugo nominees Gregory Benford, Robert Sheckley and Robert Asprin. Silverberg even states he had so much fun he wrote two more Hell novellas. Then he goes on to make the point, proudly, that his Hugo for the work, was one of the few shared-world stories ever to achieve that distinction. Note - "shared world" - part of a series - not a standalone story written for a magazine. I am not going to belabor this any longer. I hope you see that that your objectivity has somehow been compromised. Please do the right thing and correct the misconceptions so that WP can remain a valued "accurate" encyclopedic source.

ALL UN-BIASED EDITORS, PLEASE EXAMINE THE CITATIONS OF BOTH VERSIONS OF THE "GILGAMESH IN THE OUTBACK" PAGE AND DECIDE WHAT SHOULD BE DONE. THANK YOU. Hulcys930 (talk) 04:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Re. citing Brian Thomsen's "Novel Ideas" as a source for "first published in July 1986 Asimov's"; Hulaballoo Wolfowitz has found a Google Books acknowledgements page from Brian Thomsen in "Novel Ideas" and cites it as evidence of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as being first published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. I suggest that the late Brian Thomsen might have had a conflict of interest or bias in wanting to note the "first published" listing for Asimov's. The American edition of "To the Land of the Living" was a Warner Books/Popular Library Questar book, and at the time (1990) Brian Thomsen was the Questar editor -- i.e., he edited "To The Land of the Living." Because of Thomsen's involvement with Silverberg in the editing of "To the Land of the Living," that Thomsen chose to acknowledge the Asimov's publication of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" and not the "Rebels in Hell" publication (or both) should not be taken as a definite and reliable citation. That citation should be qualified as possibly biased.Dokzap (talk) 19:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

This is utterly reprehensible garbage, a malicious smear of a well-respected man whose life was tragically cut short a few years ago and cannot defend his reputation. To suggest that Thomsen would somehow have decided to falsify copyright information in a book he edited, which would have both unprofessional and dishonest, without a shred of evidence or anything resembling a plausible motive, is behavior for which you should be thoroughly ashamed, especially since you're hiding behind a pseudonym. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 04:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I did not allege that Brian Thomsen falsified copyright in referencing the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's publication in "Novel Ideas" for Robert Silverberg's "Gilgamesh in the Outback." I alleged that he might have had a bias in favor of an author he edited. This is not a "malicious smear." It is an admirable trait for an editor to support a writer he edited. As someone also edited by Brian, and who knew him for more than 20 years, I can say that he had a reputation for supporting his writers, sometimes to the detriment of his own career. Why Brian chose to use the Asimov's citation is unknowable in the context of WP. As I have argued earlier, either the Rebels in Hell or Asimov's citations for "Gilgamesh in the Outback" are acceptable as bibliographic references. To be precise, both should be cited.

However, I withdraw my allegation of bias. In light of evidence suggested by the editor who tried to add a "Controversy" section to the WP:Heroes in Hell entry, in editing Silverberg's comments in "Novel Ideas," Brian Thomsen was aware of the Rebels in Hell and Heroes In Hell series origin of the story. See this citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heroes_in_Hell&diff=prev&oldid=449273627. Including Silverberg's commentary clearly shows Brian Thomsen understood the story's history, and thus overcomes the omission in the bibliographic citation of the Rebels in Hell publication.Dokzap (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

I should not have said HW's statement was "potentially libelous," as that is a violation of WP:LEGAL. His assertion alleges action by me which I do find to be in violation of WP:ETIQUETTE.Dokzap (talk) 05:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)Dokzap

You really need to keep closer watch than that. This was posted over a month before you responded. So it wasn't utterly reprehensible garbage until last night? No one is smearing Brian Thomsen. It was pointed out that Thomsen could only print what he was told, and what he understood. He interviewed Silverberg many years after the fact. Silverberg himself may have forgotten some of the details, since he had written many books after that. UrbanTerrorist (talk) 14:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow, how amazing that "possibly biased" can be conflated with "This is utterly reprehensible garbage, a malicious smear of a well-respected man whose life was tragically cut short a few years ago and cannot defend his reputation. To suggest that Thomsen would somehow have decided to falsify copyright information in a book he edited, which would have both unprofessional and dishonest, without a shred of evidence..." As you very well know, no one did anything of the sort. Please stop going off on tangents and trying to confuse the issue of the sources used to validate information. It simply raises everyone's blood pressure to no purpose whatsoever. Also, I would personally appreciate it if you would stop using my talk page as a forum to insult my ethics and intentions. You do NOT know me, nor do you have a crystal ball telling you that I am an evil person who just wants to make you look bad.Hulcys930 (talk) 03:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Does this look as stupid to everyone else as it does to me?

First:

Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella by Robert Silverberg, and part of Janet Morris's shared-universe series Heroes in Hell. It won the Hugo Award for Best Novella in 1987 and was also nominated for the Nebula Award for Best Novella in 1986.[1][2] Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction[3][4], it was then printed in Rebels in Hell[5] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living.

Second:

Robert Silverberg wrote that he was "drawn into" writing a story for for the "Heroes in Hell" project. While he remembered that the central concept of the series was "never clearly explained" to him, he noted the similarity of "Heroes in Hell" to Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld works, and decided "to run my own variant on what Farmer had done a couple of decades earlier." After writing "Gilgamesh in the Outback," he decided that, since the story "was all so much fun," to write two sequels, "The Fascination of the Abomination" and "Gilgamesh in Uruk." In writing those stories, as Silverberg recalled, he "never read many of the other 'Heroes in Hell' stories", and had "no idea" of how consistent his work was with that of his "putative collaborators"; instead, he had "gone his own way . . . with only the most tangential links to what others had invented."[6]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.127.139 (talk • contribs) 11:59, 26 August 2011

To your First statement: correct

To your Second statement: correct (but not complete)

The other two stories, "Abomination" and "Uruk" were published in the Heroes in Hell series before Silverberg decided to combine them into a novel (with some significant rewriting)[7] in 1988 and 1989.

What exactly do you expect us to do when a long-time, experienced WP editor is deliberately, purposefully manipulating information to rewrite history and turn simple fact into a fairy story that makes him happy? "External Links" are demanded - so we add them. "Citations" are demanded - so we add them. We use HIS sources to refute his assertions and they are erased because they do not agree with the original assertions - by other editors who obviously do NOT go read the cited "sources" and look only at what was originally posted on the story page. It appears that no matter what we do, the truth is the victim here. I was actually told by another editor: "WP is about verifiability, not about Truth." Well, I guess that says it all, doesn't it? Hulcys930 (talk) 04:16, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 98.218.161.68, 9 September 2011

2nd paragraph, first line, remove the repeated word "for" -- 98.218.161.68 (talk) 00:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Done. - Dravecky (talk) 13:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)