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UAF

section refactored to Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#UAF

Minor typo to rectify

Wifione ^Message

Someone could change "Verifiable public and scholarly critiques provides useful context for works of art" to Verifiable public and scholarly critiques *provide* useful context for works of art." Simple change of singular/plural number agreement.Brunsonish

Is "Societal views on X" NPOV, or just confusing?

I would like to check where and why the recommendation is given here that "Criticism of X" should be replaced with "Societal views on X" in the cause of NPOV (hoping that I'm not opening a very nasty can of worms here).

My question and concern came about in a debate on the talk page of "the article formerly known as criticism of intellectual property" ;-)

The article has been renamed following the guidelines set here into societal views on intellectual property. I can see why "criticism" (with the usual understanding of the word) is considered too negative to include in a title, but is "societal" actually better? What has "society" actually to do with "the issues at issue"?

I saw a very appropriate use of societal in the article societal attitudes towards abortion since here it is quite explicit that different societies' views on abortion are being compared. The "societies" in question being both continental/regional, national and religious.

But is it useful to frame every debate on a "contested concept" in terms of "society"? Going by the definitions and connotations connected to "society" in such articles as society, Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft and imagined communities, it seems unclear to me why "societal" is considered fit as a general "stock title phrase" both in terms of NPOV and sheer helpfulness. Does it then actually bring more confusion than NPOV and thereby lose in coherence what it may have gained in NPOV?

Using societal seems to imply either the views/discussion of a topic within one particular society, or the views of different societies on the topic. But what then of cases such as intellectual property, where the debate(s) do(es) not conform to either of these scenarios? Are "we" then creating a false sense of coherence and unity in terms of the forum for and form of (a) debate(s) that seem(s) more to represent a widely dispersed set of individuals, groups, organisations etc.?

I do not have a ready replacement "descriptor" in hand to substitute for societal, but I would like to hear whether the choice of that particular word was the process of a wider debate, and what were the reasons for using it in the example.

Mojowiha (talk) 03:13, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As an incomplete reply, I offer this link to an essay which gives a few suggestions for other words, such as "evaluation," "review," "critique," or "assessment". Jesanj (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Relevant" redirect is not relevant

Why is WP:Relevant redirected to NPOV? I changed the redirect to REV. WCCasey (talk) 07:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"This policy is non-negotiable and all editors and articles must follow it."

I do not fully understand how this requirement can be implemented in reality. What if some users decided not to follow this policy? Consider a situation when some group of users opposes to change of the content under a pretext that the content is properly sourced, and totally ignores the fact that the sources they use are the subject of serious criticism. What is the mechanism that would allow us to change such non-neutral content if any RfCs give ca 50:50 votes pro and contra (which is usually interpreted by uninvolved admins as "no consensus for change")?--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RSN and then if there is a still a serious problem ArbCom--Cailil ^talk 03:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am talking about reliable, but seriously contested sources, so RSN has no relation to that issue. You probably meant "WP:NPOVN", however, that is also not a panacaea: the NPOVN discussion may involve the same users (with minimal outside input). With regard to ArbCom, it is mostly a place where conduct disputes are supposed to be resolved. However, in this situation, there is no formal reasons for accusation in misbehaviour: the users may advocate the viewpoint that is supported by reliable sources, they participate in content dispute (and do that in polite manner), RfCs etc. The problem is that the policy says nothing about the threshold of inclusion of some viewpoint as the mainstream one, and about the sanctions for violation of this policy (similar to WP:3RR).--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No Paul I meant WP:RSN. If the sources are "the subject of serious criticism" (they are therefore not the most reliable) then WP:RSN is the venue. What you are proposing is not a neutral point of view issue in fact - the best quality (ie most reliable) sources should used to write articles. And yes I meant ArbCom because if ppl are excluding material they dislike (and vice versa) then they are pov-pushing and if this pov-pushing is so complex or divise (and can't be resolve by WP:DR) then ArbCom is the other venue--Cailil ^talk 20:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I agree with you. Sometimes, we have a situation when a source A is being widely cited by some authors and is being equally widely criticised (that is typical for history articles, etc). Obviously, if a source is a scholarly article or university book, it cannot be treated as unreliable (it has all formal trait of a reliable secondary source). However, taking into account the criticism, it does not express some universally accepted opinion. In other words, the RSN conclusion will be "yes it is reliable". However, the NPOVN conclusion should be "it cannot be used as a support for a statement of some fact, just for an assertion made by its authors".

Regarding ArbCom, do you mean that the situation when some users resist against removal of some statement that has been directly contested by some reliable source(s) is a reason to address directly to ArbCom?--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think Paul that you're missing my point. If sources are seriously criticized (ie that they are so flawed as to be discreditted) then they aren't reliable - they're fringe and can't be given equal validity to the mainstream (but vice versa if the criticism is fringe it won't discredit the sources). If ppl are pushing for the inclusion of seriously contested material (ie fringe) as fact in a way that would fool 50% of good faith wikipedians reviewing the situation at RFC then the aforementioned ppl may be involved in a form of complex vandalism that usually isn't resolvable via the drive-by discussions at ANi and AN. It would require expert input and detailed analysis of sources vs edits. ArbCom is really the only venue for that level of resolution (and although they do nominally have the power to do this I've never seen it used).
Now, if you're asserting that there are sources which some scholars contest (or have corrected or departed from) that are being presented as fact by some editors then Template:Expert might help. Otherwise I would suggest that existing policy actually covers this under WP:WEIGHT & WP:YESPOV. Opinions, arguments and some analysis of data (if it is disputed) should be attributed not stated as fact--Cailil ^talk 02:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I am missing your point. Not all fringe sources are unreliable. Sometimes, reliability is determined by purely formal criteria: thus, all books published by Harvard University Press or articles published by the Wall Street Journal fit our reliable sources criteria . However, I frequently encounter a situation when such sources become a subject of serious criticism from established scholars. This situation cannot be resolved per WP:V policy, and YESPOV can be implemented only if both parties are good faith users. However, I see no mechanism that would allow me to force a civil POV-pusher to follow NPOV in the absence of external input. Your explanation about ArbCom simply confirms my doubts.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And since you have "seriously contested" the existence of the article in question, and every reliable source therein, I fear your post here may be seen as a disingenous argument. NPOV says if you do not like a reliable source, you do not simply say it is not "mainstream" unless you provide reliable sources making that claim - it is not a matter of "proof by terated assertion" which counts. If you have sources actually saying that most of those who died under Communoist regimes died because they "opposed agrarian reform" (i.e. they deserved death) then it is up to you to provide such claims explicitly made by other reliable sources. It is not up to others to "prove" that the reliable sources used in the article are "mainstream" unless you provide reliable sources asserting otherwise. Note also that simply asserting that everyone cited is "fringe" is not how Wikipedia works. Cheers. Collect (talk) 04:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You probably missed the point. I am discussing a very simple situation:

A group of users introduced some assertion, found in a reliable source, as a fact.
An evidences have been presented on the article's talk page that this assertion has been contested by several reliable sources; based on that, it has been requested that the statement to be changed to comply with neutrality policy.
Nevertheless, the above mentioned users refuse to agree on that merely because they believe the source they used is "mainstream". The attempts to resolve this situation are being blocked because of "the lack of consensus"..

In my opinion, there is a hole in our policy, because it provides no explanation on how this situation should be resolved.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think policy can cover it. Certain editors have been allowed to slide on their mere declaration that a source is mainstream. I think a thorough examination of that fine point could solve a lot of problems. BigK HeX (talk) 08:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What we write in an article depends on many factors, such as (1) How many reliable sources are there (2) Who are the reliable sources. That determines whether we can state a bold-faced fact eg. (a) the Moon is made of blue cheese, or whether we have to attribute the fact, eg. (b) some Mexican Indians believe that the Moon is made of cheese,[1] We may well have reliable source supporting two sides of an argument, eg. sources supporting phlogiston, and of course, those that do not. Policy should be flexible enough to (a) take these views into account (b) allow editors to assess sources, (c) allows editors to decide how sources are described and attributed. A single reliable source does not make decide the truth (and that's a fact) --Iantresman (talk) 09:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, it is the name of the policy "NPOV" that is the problem, as it is misunderstood my many people, and leads to much confusion with representing "points of view". In practice, we're asking editors to write articles without "spinning" the facts, ie without editorial bias. --Iantresman (talk) 09:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More than a score of relaible sources take the position that "excess deaths" occurred. No mainstream source has been presented that they did not occur. Rather, we have an editor asserting that any editor by "contesting" a claim can have it removed from an article regardless of the sources used. One editor ecven stated [2], [3]

Our policy is quite clear: if some assertion has been seriously contested, it cannot be presented as a fact, and that is non-negotiable. No reference to consensus, or even to some admin's decision can overrule this requirement of our policy. The only argument that you can provide in support of your POV is the reliable mainstream sources that directly, explicitly and persuasively debunk the criticism of the BB (i.e. the sources provided by me). Your failure to do so will mean that you are acting in a violation of our basic content policy, and, since I have already explained your mistake to you, you are acting 'knowingly'

Claiming that I knowingly am violating his understanding of NPOV - which seems to be that if he says that a claim is false, that it mut be removed. He has not provided any real sources that deny the "excess deaths" but he did provide one source which basically said that people who oppose agrarian reform cause their own deaths. Alas - that does not seem to be a "mainstream" view by a few miles. What I have repeatedly suggested is that he find reliable sources for his claims (which include "excess lives" as one of his claims!

PS Frankly speaking, your statement: ""Contested assertions" does not refer to editors "contesting" claims" is somewhat insulting. I believe I provided a sufficient amount of reliable sources that directly contest your BB to be immune from such ridiculous claims. Do you really read and understand my posts?

Has only one problem - he has not actually provided such sources, only his assertions that the claims are "contentious" but zero mainstream sources denying the "excess deaths". Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not about denying the excess deaths (no one denies the obvious fact there were some), the problem is about the total number of the excess deaths and their relation to 'mass killings'.
Here the evidence was presented that Werth and Margolin (the co-authors of the author who provided the contested "mainstream" figures), Stanley Hoffmann and Michael Ellman criticize the very aaproach of using the large total figures and manipulating with them. These are top mainstream authors highly relevant to the subject, and disregarding their point of view is against NPOV.
A really disturbing thing is that some editors in the related discussion and now here as well try to equate excess deaths and mass killings, the two different things as anyone can see from this definition. Equating these two things is not only marginal, but simply erroneous and unscientific from the point of view of demographics and statistics. Considering the views based on this erroneous equation as "mainstream" is contrary to any logic and common sense. No wonder that even the co-authors of the author in question disagreed with the approach.

And now I must repeat Paul's question: what should we do if a group of users opposes to change of the content under a pretext that the content is properly sourced, and totally ignores the fact that the sources they use are the subject of serious criticism, thus engaging in non-neutral POV-pushing and supporting a highly controversial manipulation with statistical data? GreyHood ^Talk 14:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The pretext as it is quaintly misascribed happens to be fundamental Wikipedia policy which is not negotiable. Over and over and around Robin Hood's barn this goes - and the fact of the policy is not what some aver it is ... we need competing POVs from reliable sources not just that some editors assert that they as editors "contest" the claims which are not controverted in the body of the article. We rely on what the reliable sources state, not on what any editor "knows" to be the "truth." Cheers - but I suspect (fear?) there will be another 20 or so laps around that famous barn. Collect (talk) 15:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, look at some of what Ellman says explicitly [4]

In accordance with a list of incurable conditions, approved by the head of the Gulag, people were to be freed if they suffered from ‘emaciation as a result of avitaminosis’ (this was a bureaucratic expression for starvation), ‘alimentary distrophy’ (this was another bureaucratic expression for starvation), leukaemia, malignant anaemia, decompressed tuberculosis of the lungs, open bacilliary tuberculosis of the lungs, acute amphysemna of the lungs etc. As Isupov sensibly notes, ‘In other words, the prisoners were released to die’.

On the basis of the demographic data for the 1930s it seems that there were about 10 million excess deaths in 1926–39.

The unexpected finding about the high rate of releases automatically means that the total number of people in the system at one time or another was much higher, relative to the stock of prisoners at any one time, than previously thought. The newly available numbers on the flow are truly enormous. Moreover, as Conquest sensibly noted, they are of a similar order of magnitude to older ‘high’ estimates of the total number sentenced in the Stalinist era.

Some backing for a claim that deaths are "overstated." And noting that his paper is on the Gulag deaths specifically, not on other reasons for deaths (such as the Holodomor). In fact he states that it a legitimate issue as to whether Stalin made specific decisions which greatly increased deaths in the Ukraine, and poses the difference between murder and manslaughter as the key issue. So Ellman absolutely does nothing to renounce Courtois as RS for estimate ranges at all. Thanks - one more RS for the estimates currently in the article, and an example of using a claim that he says something he does not say debunked. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just another example how you work with sources and how you ignore the citations and references provided by other editors. Ellman is against using the poorly defined totals, he suggests concentrating on sub-totals, as cited here. And you use his view on just one of the subtotals to support the totals. Wow. I though you are just ignoring the citations provided by your opponents, but now I'm not sure if you actually read them.

And you again ignore the fact that high estimates of excess deaths is not a proof for high estimates of mass killings. By the way a mainstream article in Russian, by Denisenko, 2008, published by the Moscow State University (pp. 106-142), discusses the Soviet demographics in the late 1920s and in the 1930s, and on pp. 115-116 contains an interesting table of estimates of demographic losses before opening of archives and after. The modern estimates for excess deaths were significantly downgraded after archives were opened, and these new estimates for the 1927-1938 (or 1927-36, 1927-41) period are in the range of 6,6-9 million, for all categories of excess deaths. It seems like Ellman and Cortois just used the outdated estimates for their totals or subtotals, not the new archival data. And there is an established scholarly consensus on some of those subtotals, like Gulag mortality, which is many times lower than 10 million.

Making a summary:

You continue to ignore the presented criticism to the approach of using ill-defined totals.

You try to present the evidence for excess deaths as if for mass killings (the article is called Mass killings under communist regimes, not Excess deaths under communist regimes, isn't it).

Your try to present the evidence for sub-totals as evidence for totals, which is OR and which is not taking into account the criticism mentioned above.

Your evidence for sub-totals is controversial and likely outdated.

Conclusion: failure of NPOV, manipulation with terminology, original research. GreyHood ^Talk 17:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I only quoted Ellman. That you "know" something he did not write is not actually a valid reason for inserting your opinioon nto any article at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a link to a section of the talk page with a very prominent and easily findable quote from Ellman in two my posts here. I can post it right into this discussion, but seems like you will ignore it even in that case. And please, no need to bold something in every your comment, especially the short ones. GreyHood ^Talk 18:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your continuous ignoring of the reliable sources presented in the link above, and trying to misrepresent situation as if just some editors, and not the scientific authors, criticize the position you support, is not really nice. Please either prove that these authors are not RS, or that their criticisms were rebutted or seriously criticized. Also, please, explain your position about equating excess deaths and mass killings and show how could it be mainstream. GreyHood ^Talk 15:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that the discussion of some concrete article belongs to this talk page. It should be moved either to WP:NPOVN or to the article's talk page. My question was much more general: I have a feeling that there are many articles in Wikipedia that are the subject of interest of just few users. In this situation, a relative majority of the users may decide to ignore some sources and present some statement as facts (despite justified objections of others). Since such articles are not a subject to interest of broad WP community, going to appropriate noticeboards have almost zero effect. As a result, it is quite possible to create (and maintain) totally biased articles of that type. I see no tools in our neutrality policy that would allow good faith users to fix such a situation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to recall that you have certainly espoused your own POV on the article talk page a great deal. If there were any argument as to any editor seeking to dominate a talk page, I suggest that the results would be interesting. I would, moreover, comment to those reading here that they wuld find the oft-repeated AfDs of interest. Cheers. `Collect (talk)

That is not a question of domination: I see no problem in someone's domination, provided, but only provided, that such domination is based on what non-fringe reliable sources say. Therefore, your ad hominem argument is totally senseless. The mention of AfD is totally obscure for me: what did you want to say by that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Paul Siebert, I can certainly attest to the fact that there are plenty of articles, that have low traffic. NPOV can be a nightmare on these ... oddly, in my experience it has been libertarian and anti-communist themed Wiki articles. BigK HeX (talk) 19:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This touches on the three gigantic gaping holes in this policy:

Wp:undue is perhaps one of the most important concepts in Wikipedia, yet it is completely toothless because the supposed method of resolving wp:undue arguments is, as a practical matter, absolutely unusable. I mean, have you EVER seen a non-landslide dispute in this area actually settled by determining preponderance in/of sources?
It is structured for a dispute on statements in the content of-question. Most POV wars are not of this nature. They are on topics where there is a real world conflict, and each side wants to put in material for effect, where there is no dispute on the statements in the inserted material. For example, if you don't like politician X, you will put in that his third cousin is a child molester. If you like Politician X, you will put in that his other third cousin runs a shelter for the homeless. Neither item is really about the subject of the article. The facts of each are not contested so wp:npov as currently written does not kick in except for the near impossible route of getting the irrelevant material removed as wp:undue.
Lack of any provision for taking directness-of-relevance into consideration when dealing with wp:undue situations. This would help both of the above.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance is easily challenged on decently-trafficked pages. (One shouldn't confuse a lack of procedure for challenging material with one's past difficulty in mounting successful challenges.) BigK HeX (talk) 20:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. There is no provision for degree of relevance in guidelines or policies for that challenge. Persons can claim that "some connection to" 100% satisfies that question. North8000 (talk) 10:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There IS a provision. Every step of dispute resolution is sufficient to deal with issues of relevance on article such as Tea Party Movement. You simply don't like the general consensus that did arise. BigK HeX (talk) 15:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@North8000 Whereas I mostly agree with what you say, I am talking about much more concrete situation, which repeats in many articles:

Let's consider some article, devoted to, e.g., some revolutionary organisation "X", where just 4 users are active. Three of them (users A, B, C) support one POV, for instance, that "X" was a terrorist organisation. They found three books where authored by Adams, Birch and Cahalan, accordingly, and add the following text to the first sentence of the lede of the article: "X is a terrorist organisation^[1]^[2]^[3] that blah-blah-blah"
A user Z provides the source (Zimmerman) that explicitly criticise the viewpoint of Adams, and question the validity of the Birch's book as whole(Yamamoto), and question the statement that organisations like X can be considered as terrorists (Xavier). Based on that, the user Z proposes to remove the above mentioned statement from the lede and, instead of that, to add the following statement into the article's body: "According to several authors,^[4]^[5]^[6] X is a terrorist organisation, however, this views have been contested by others scholars.^[7]^[8] According to Xavier,^[9] X cannot be considered as terrorists."
Obviously, such a step would be in full accordance with our neutrality policy. However, the users A,B, and C reject this proposal, because the statements in the lede is properly sourced.
Any attempts to resolve this issue via NPOVN fail because of minimal external input (no other users except these four express interest in this subject). RfCs fail accordingly. Admins have no right to interfere into this dispute which, at the first glance, has all traits of a content dispute.
As a result, the article appears to be frozen in a totally biased state, because even addition of Zimmerman, Yamamoto and Xavier to the main article does not change the situation: the assertion of first three authors, placed into the opening lede's statement looks like a statement of the fact, whereas the opinions of Zimmerman, Yamamoto and Xavier, buried in the article's body, looks like a minority views of few authors. I know many examples of such situation in WP, and I am pretty sure my list is incomplete.--Paul Siebert (talk)

I wholeheartedly agree that POV problems can persist intractably in low-traffic articles. A special procedure may be needed for articles of that type. An effective solution might even need to go so far as to have certain articles designated as "low-traffic/high-conflict articles" for X number of months and put one of those Wiki-wide announcement links at the top of editors' browsers when an RfC is proposed for these articles. BigK HeX (talk) 22:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the given example (as in the real situation), WP:LEAD is relevant. The lead should be including any prominent controversies. Controversy means that several major views on the subject exist, and apparently they all should be presented. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. If the body of the article lists several significant views on whether X is a terrorist group, than the lead should also list several views, otherwise the lead would contain information which is contested by the body. Even more obvious situation we have with MKuCR: the lead contains total figures which are not covered in the remainder of the article. Therefore these figures should be removed; if we insert them into the article, than criticism of those figures should go there as well, and since the point is controversial, it should go to the lede only by presenting all significant views on the problem there. GreyHood ^Talk 22:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, in my experience, sometimes NPOV problems could be solved by applying different policies instead of NPOV or along with NPOV. GreyHood ^Talk 22:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to Paul, you gave an example that covered several aspects / topics at once so it is hard to know which aspect you are referring to as the core issue. Position/prominence in the article? Method of covering the two POV's? That a plurality can prevent proper handling of the article?

Your #3 comes from a common (accidental or deliberate) misreading of wp:ver which is to say that scouring is per se a force for inclusion rather than a condition for inclusion. The current proposal under RFC at wp:ver helps a bit in this area. But if this case is really a matter of conflict between two non-fringe points of view, then wp:npov balancing would kick in in this case.

I believe that your main point may be that a plurality of one POV at a low traffic article can prevent proper handling. I think that you are certainly right there. And the plurality can be achieve by getting the editors with the opposite view throw up their hands in frustration and leave the article. My own belief is that improvements and policies and guidelines is the best way to help this situation. Especially making it harder to mis-quote and mis-use current policies and guidelines, make it harder to gain by wikilawyering alone, and to fill in some gapign holes. North8000 (talk) 10:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Which concrete improvements of the policy and guidelines should be made, in your opinion?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well I shot my mouth off too early and you called my bluff. I had been working on something regarding this at an essay but it's still a general regarding proposed fixes. But here goes anyway:

Comment: I believe that NPOV is flawed because (a) it is ambiguous (b) is mistakenly applied equally to general articles and to article specifically about minority views (c) editors mistaken believe that a point of view automatically fails NPOV. Example: Undue weight tells us that in "articles specifically about a minority viewpoint [..] the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail". However, the section on Giving "equal validity" tells us "Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship". Of course the latter is correct, why would we include details of a mainstream/majority view in ALL articles presenting the minority view, when all we need do is mention and link to it? Finally: we can always state a point of view neutrally using the appropriate language. For example, "the Moon is made of chesse" fails NPOV simple because it is misleading of the generally accept view. However, "Some Mexican folk tales believe the Moon is made of chesse"[5] is a fact, and hence is NPOV, even though it could be interpreted a POV we may not agree with. It is the points of view that are negotiable, it is NPOV that isn't --Iantresman (talk) 17:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV core issue analysis and suggestions

(Per question a few lines up)North8000 (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia articles on contentious topics generally remain in a permanent state of conflict and instability. WP:npov is not currently sufficient to significantly resolve these. Certain fixes would require changes in other policies, especially source and sourcing criteria. But others can be helped by improvements in wp:npov:

Wp:npov needs text pointing out the most frequent forms of POV'ing

The most frequent forms of POV'ing slips "under the radar" of wp:npov, i.e. it gives little direction or guidance for those areas. Partial solution: Include something like the below in NPOV. Merely recognizing, understanding and spotlighting these other forms of pov'ing will help the situation.

A common assumption is that most POV questions on articles arise where there are conflicting viewpoints on a particular question, or point made in the article. This is mistaken; a minority of pov issues are of this type. Here are three more types, with an example of each:

Selection of particular angles to cover. It matters not that the coverage of that particular angle is objective or balanced, the selection itself tilts the article.
Example, if there is a move to cut government programs and taxes, choosing to objectively cover a case where someone would be hurt by a program cut tilts the article one way, choosing to objectively cover a case of a person hurt by high taxes tilts the article the other way. So it matters not that the coverage of the particular angle is balanced; the choice of the angle to cover creates the imbalance.

Quantity of content The quantity of content on positive vs negative topics regarding an organization tilts the article one way or the other. Note that this is true even if the coverage of those chosen topics is unbiased.
Insertion (association by mere presence in the same paragraph or article) of powerful material
Example: "Priest John Smith said that he is a homosexual. Smith critics noted that the XYZ study concluded that allegations of homosexual child molestation by priests is 9 times more common than allegations of heterosexual child by priests."
Even though the second sentence provides no info about or even any accusation of John Smith, the presence of child molestation information in the John Smith article implants the association in the mind of the reader. Currently the only defense against this a weak one under wp:nor, basically saying that the juxtaposition of the two items is synthesis, or the weaker on of trying to use the toothless wp:undue.

One of the two biggest holes in wp:npov

The biggest hole in wp:npov is that it basically only addresses cases where the material espouses opposing viewpoints on a particular topic. Material which is put in for effect but which does not espouse a viewpoint slips under the wp:npov radar. The only section that slightly addresses the latter is wp:undue, and, as written, it is ineffective in this area.

The other of the two biggest holes in wp:nopv

This that wp:undue is basically toothless in disputes because its main guideline for implementation (preponderance in sources) is really not practically usable. One solution would be to incorporate other metrics into the guideline. The objectivity and knowledgeably of the sources with respect to the topic should be added to the raw preponderance criteria. Also, include directness--of-relevance as a criteria to be taken into consideration.

Adding relevancy guidance would substantially increase Wp:npov's effectiveness

Wp:undue does not provide sufficient guidance to resolve contentious articles and generally fails on these. Adding relevancy into its guidance tools would help this situation. One place to start would be to say that when there is a dispute, one condition for inclusion of material is that it be directly ABOUT (not just be related to) the subject of the article.

Exploration of situations that would benefit from this

WP:npov seems best designed only for the classic POV case, where there is a statement which purports to be objective fact in dispute. But the far more common case is where POV warriors seek to leave an impression on the reader via the quantity and nature of content which leaves the desired impression. This may be:

On the topic of the article, or
Where the POV promoter inserts material into the article to further a POV on a different topic.

An example of the "on the topic" type would be if Rush Limbaugh announced that Barack Obama is the worst president in the last 100 years, and many newspapers reported (simply) that he made this announcement. And then an editor puts a section on this into the general Barack Obama article. Technically, the editor is not inserting/citing/having to argue the "worst president in 100 years" statement, they are just saying that Limbaugh said this. They just want the very real impact and impression of the presence of "worst president" type words in the article. A second example is that if John Smith, a person who is a second cousin of Obama is convicted of child molesting, and the conviction is covered by several newspapers in a matter-of-fact manner. And an editor places a section into the general Obama article regarding that topic. They make no other argument that needs defending, they just want the impact of child molestation related material in the Obama article and it's juxtaposition with Obama material. Most would say that these should not be in the article. And, if there were a large amount of such material in the article, most would (intuitively) say that such POV's the article. But policies and guidelines provide little guidance regarding this. The sourcing is not only on wp:solid ground, the coverage really can't be questioned, as it was matter-of-fact regarding these matters. Ditto for the "objectivity" of the text put into the article, it is simply matter of fact overage of Limbaugh's statement and the 2nd cousin's conviction.

Probably the policy/guideline most looked at for guidance on this would be wp:undue. But it is oriented towards covering opposing views on a particular statement. In these cases, the "statements" are just what was said in the speech, and the facts of the conviction. It gives guidance only on coverages of two sides of an issue. But there is no debated "issue" in this material, as it is a statement of facts regarding what Limbaugh said and of the conviction and of the relation of the child molester to Obama. Beyond that, wp:npov says what can be interpreted as "must include" for these statements.

Solution

For contentious inclusions, create a standard that the material must be directly about the subject of the article. Not just related to, but directly about. Under this analysis, the coverage of Limbaugh's speech is most directly about Limbaugh's speech, not Obama. And the child molesting material is most directly about John Smith, not Obama.

Wp:npov needs to include more guidance on section titles

Section titles tilt this inclusion of information in an article. They influence the article to include a greater amount of material defined by the title. Example: John Smith kicked a dog once, a long time ago, and also runs an animal shelter. In the John Smith article an editor creates a "Controversies" section. This tilts the article towards inclusion of a greater amount of negative material on John Smith. It might tend to give a section on the dog-kicking incident legitimacy for inclusion which it might not have otherwise had. And it could be used to prevent another editor from including the dog sheltering material to provide balance on the topic of Smith's treatment of animals. The removing editor can say that the dog sheltering material was removed because it is "not a controversy".

Solution

For contentious situations, section headings may be created only for material that could pass the wp:undue test for inclusion in the article without the section heading. Further, only material that can remain in the article without having it's suitability "propped up" by a section heading remains. Basically, this means that material must "stand on its own two feet" regarding justification, without such being "propped up" by the section title.

North8000 (talk) 11:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Agree that the identified holes in the policy are serious issues. The proposed solution sounds good. It seems to be related to WP:SYNTHESIS policy. GreyHood ^Talk 19:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas all what you write is correct (or almost correct), I think the most serious problem not in the policy but in the ways it is being implemented.
Firstly, the policy states that the principles it is based upon cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. However, it is unclear for me how can it be implemented in actuality. Let's consider your first example. A group of users (A, B, C) added the words: "Smith critics noted that the XYZ study concluded that allegations of homosexual child molestation by priests is 9 times more common than allegations of heterosexual child by priests." after the sentence "Priest John Smith said that he is a homosexual." A user D objected against that citing the policy standard that the material must be directly about the subject of the article (let's assume for a moment that your proposal has been added to the policy). Of course, had the users A, B, and C been good faith users, they would accept this argument. However, if they decided to object (for instance, citing WP:V), the added text will stay, because there was no consensus for removal of properly sourced material. Obviously, the attempt to directly remove this text will fail due to 3RR, and an appeal to admins will (the most probably) lead just to an advise to start an RfC. However, what if no other users express interest to the article about Smith? The change will stay, because the result of RfC will be "no consensus for removal".
The events may develop differently. Some admin may interfere and revert the change. However, the users A, B, and C may object pretending that that is just a content dispute, and admins cannot use administrative tools to interfere into content disputes. As a result, the current policy clause "The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus" appears to be toothless against civil POV pushers in low traffic articles.
I do not see how your above proposal resolves this issue.
I have other comments, but I suggest to finish with this one first.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the same contention can be made where there is, in fact, a relationship, however, because two words were not used together in a particular way and formally defined as such (even though widely used and there is no doubt regarding the two words and what they mean), then they do not apply and should be deleted; A, B, C contending the obvious, and D contending otherwise, and attacking A, B, and C of conducting editing in bad faith, and heaping on false charges of synthesis. In my experience there are as many actual civil POV pushers as there are accusers of editors as POV pushers who are themselves civil POV pushers (in addition to the first population of civil POV pushers).

As it can even be debated what constitutes a reputable source, there is no manner of policy which achieves elimination of POV pushing. As long as WP is the most widely returned source on internet search engines, it will be constantly assaulted by POV pushers. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 04:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely right, Peters. The only thing that I can add to that is that, since majority of WP users are good faith users, a situation when users A, B, and C are good faith users and a user D is not is more frequent. It can be resolved relatively easily, because three users as a rule, prevail over one in most disputes. By contrast, a situation when a group of civil POV pushers dominates over some small traffic article is less frequent. Unfortunately, I do not see the tools in current NPOV policy that allows us to resolve this situation. Ideally, it would be desirable if our policy contained some clauses that allowed to even a single user, who edits based on top quality secondary sources and in accordance with NPOV, to prevail over any number of POV pushers.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The fundamental issue is that whether or not something is indeed so is immaterial, it is only what sources state that counts. As there are sources which will state just about anything, editors can easily find sources which espouse their viewpoint; at that point, what we have is reductio ad opinionem (there are no facts, only opinions), all opinions being equally valid as their factual basis is inadmissible per WP policy. WP:NPOV is then invoked to insert opinions which are not factual, since it's all just "opinion" in an area of contention, and all "opinions" deserve equal treatment according to WP:NPOV. If one editor contends A according to X and another contends B according to Y, WP:NPOV is a "balance" of the two regardless of factual circumstances of A and B. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 04:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your trumping also poses issues, as there is still plenty of room between what a source states and editorial representation. There are certainly cases where I believe it is better to resign ourselves to no quick solutions than attempt to policify ourselves into a premature resolution of an editorial conflict. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK

You seem to mix editorial conflict with a conflict with civil POV pushers in a situation when they form a majority. Consider a following example:

Users A,B, and C added the statement: "Smith critics noted that the XYZ study concluded that allegations of homosexual child molestation by priests is 9 times more common than allegations of heterosexual child by priests.²" after the sentence "Priest John Smith said that he is a homosexual.¹"
User D argued that neither of cited sources (neither 1 nor 2) wrote anything about child molestation by Smith, so this addition fails WP:SYNTH: the text implies something (a connection between Smith and child molestation) that is not present in neither of two sources.
However, if A-C are POV-pushers, they may argue that both statements are properly cited, and the text correctly transmits what the sources say. I see no tools to remove this non-neutral synthesis without external output (which may not necessarily follow).--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:03, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the two closest current tools for this situation are wp:undue (i.e. argue that the child molestation material is undue weight in that particular article) and wp:synth (i.e. argue that the juxtaposition implies a linkage, and that linkage is synthesis) and that the argument for both is ethereal enough in that situation that anyone could prevent either from being invoked. Hence comment that they are "toothless" in these situations and my suggestion to say that contested-insertion statements should be about (not just related to) the subject of the article in order to remain. And my second (vaguer) suggestion is to merely point out that putting material in for impression, even when the statements in the inserted material are not contested is a form of POV'ing. I think that even the smaller/vaguer step of merely noting/acknowledging this would tend to make some conversations go better. North8000 (talk) 15:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree that WP:UNDUE is "toothless". On articles with decent traffic, policy works just fine ... that includes Tea Party Movement. If a particular person's past arguments have been toothless, I don't think that is a reflection on policy.

There are article that can garner almost zero opinions outside of some core of a dozen editors. Current policy seems unable to deal with conflicts with these. But, that is a separate topic from WP:UNDUE being toothless. BigK HeX (talk) 15:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@ North8000. As I already wrote, I fully agree with both your suggestions. --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@ BigK HeX. We do not speak about the articles with decent traffic. These problems are typical for contentious low traffic articles, where bare majority can create and maintain any biased content.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see the problem as follows. For low traffic articles where some group of POV-pushers acting in concert is active, there is no ways to resolve neutrality issues: if the POV-pushers constitute a majority on the talk page, any decision meet formal WP:CONSENSUS criteria (I assume POV-pushers are civil); RfC, due to minimal or zero external input cannot resolve this situation; NPOVN is also ineffective, because usually the discussion there involves same users. And, more importantly, no administrative actions can be taken in this case, because immediately after starting the analysis of content for neutrality the admins become a party of the dispute. Therefore, the tools are needed that would allow admins to analyse arguments put forward during the the neutrality disputes without becoming a party of it.
A possible solution may be as follows. When some user expresses a concern about neutrality of some article's statement (for example, an undue weight has been given to some non-mainstream source) he is supposed to provide a reliable non-fringe secondary source that explicitly criticizes this particular source for errors, revisionism, or for the tendency to tendency to overreach and overstate his case. As soon as such a source has been provided, the article's statement should be deemed non-neutral, and needs to be changed accordingly. To prevent the change of the content, its advocates must present well sourced refutation of the source that criticize the content they defend. Failure to provide such a refutation automatically means that the disputed content must be modified.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC) [reply]

RE: "We do not speak about the articles with decent traffic.".

I can assure you that North8000's problems are not regarding articles with low traffic. If your agreement is strictly limited to low-traffic articles, then you probably should edit your posts to be explicit. People could get very easily confused on that point, if North8000 is being general and other editors are thinking of some completely other context for North8000's solutions. BigK HeX (talk) 16:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My comment and suggestions are more about the structural dichotomy that exists. If, in the top level Obama article you want to write that "Obama is a bad president" (i.e. the statement of the insertion is disputed) then wp:npov in all of it's intended glory kicks in. If, in that top level article, you want to to put an uncontested but irrelevant fact in (Omama's third cousin is a convicted child molester) for negative effect, then npov is silent on the issue because the statement of the insertion is not contested. North8000 (talk) 17:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SYNTH says: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Since information about Omama's third cousin implies some connection between Obama and child molestation (we assume that the source about Omama's third cousin does not contain such claims), such a statement fails the SYNTH test, and will be quickly removed. The problem may appear only when the Obama article is being edited by few users, and significant part of them share (and push) the same POV.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it would take only a 1-2 people to stop that removal. The opening shots would probably be along the lines of "please stop removing sourced material", or "please stop your POV war of trying to censor everything negative related to Obama from the article, haven't you ever read wp:npov?". Or, "No conclusion was implied, this is just a statement of fact about what his third cousin did.". Or "if you have a RS that says that his third cousin is not a convicted child molester, please feel free to add it." Hence my thought that wp:synth is weak/difficult to make stick in a case like this. North8000 (talk) 18:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re "please stop removing sourced material", I totally agree: such an argument is quite common during POV disputes. I think it is desirable to add special clauses to policy that explicitly prohibit references to WP:V during neutrality disputes. For example, to specify in the policy that the users that close NPOV-related RfCs must disregard all arguments citing WP:V in support of non-neutral texts.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RE: "I think that it would take only a 1-2 people to stop that removal."

Such problems are EASILY cleared up by the current dispute resolution mechanisms in articles that attract outside attention. Current policy is fine (WRT to non "low traffic" articles), IMO. At the very most, one or two RfC's ends the debate (though some editors may be loathe to accept the concluding consensus). BigK HeX (talk) 21:18, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BigK, I disagree. Just about every article representing a real world conflict/clash is an abysmal failure. This is one area where Wikipedia doesn't work. They are messes consisting of the result of a whole lot of battles of trying to get in our keep out material that sounds good for one side or the other. And all are eternally unstable; the only exceptions (the only stable ones) have "stability" from one POV side dominating. North8000 (talk) 21:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to defy the facts. I am pretty sure the Obama article is the hottest US political topic on Wikipedia, and it reads just fine. Just because you don't like the results of the dispute resolutions at Tea Party Movement, that doesn't mean the article is anything resembling the "mess" you perennially post about. We certainly don't need any policy changes to address your issues with that article. BigK HeX (talk) 21:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BigK, the TPM article is just one of the many many many places I learned from for the above, and I have been writing / working on the above since August 2010, predating all of your imagined reasons. And the only dispute resolution that occurred there I was very happy with. You are missing AGF by a mile with the erroneous things about me that you have been writing. Why not just engage in the discussion on a higher plane? North8000 (talk) 22:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to imagine any reasons. YOU have made clear your disdain of the consensus reached for Tea Party Movement in nearly every venue you post in here. And my point here is simple -- just because you failed to gain consensus on articles like Tea Party Movement, that doesn't mean that policy needs to be changed. There is a HUGE difference between dispute resolution not going one's way after dozens of outside opinions are posted versus dispute resolution not giving any opinions or guidance to follow. None of this has anything to do with WP:AGF either. BigK HeX (talk) 15:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is soooooo far off of the actual situation there that it seems that you are talking about a different article. The only such process that occurred there was about a year ago and I supported the results. And your response avoided the two main points of my post, which is of course, your purview/choice. North8000 (talk)

Paul Siebert, I agree. The one caveat is that I don't see a need to avoid citing the actual wp:ver (which says that verifiability is a condition for inclusion) just the imaginary wp:ver that says that verifiability is force for inclusion. North8000 (talk) 21:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you agree, let's think how can we improve the policy. And, I suggest to focus on the low traffic articles first.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Paul can you please spell out what you mean by 'objectivity' of a source wrt WP:DUE. Specifically I'm concerned that your argument is falling into the "common misunderstanding of NPOV" that sources should be neutral? Also while you're correct about the relevance of a source this is adequately addressed by WP:V and WP:NOR (remember that this policy has to be read with the others - ie it's not a one stop shop): relevance of references is an original research issue not a NPOV one. I would suggest further that your points wrt 'Insertion' & 'Selection of particular angles to cover' are covered by WP:OR. I also disagree about the section titles issue etc as this is already covered in the MOS.
I think your point re the 'material for effect' is good - however I'd suggest that WP:PEACOCK/WP:WEASEL, WP:DUE and WP:GEVAL should have this covered (one can't just drop a sentence into Obama's BLP recording that "Limbaugh says that Obama is the worst president in 100 years" it's not weighty enough).
As regards your low traffic example of pov pushers acting in concert it seems to me that what you are detailing is a lack of enforcement rather than a problem with policy--Cailil ^talk 03:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Cailil, I never claimed the sources should be neutral. Neutrality is our internal criterion, and it is applied to the way the sources should be represented, not to the sources themselves. The sources may be reliable or not; reliable sources may be mainstream, significant minority or fringe. The term "neutrality" cannot be applied to none of them. That is why I never wrote about "common misunderstanding of NPOV" in this context. I wrote that the WP:V is being frequently cited during NPOV disputes, and the most common situation is when A argues that the statement X is not neutral, and B replies that the statement X is ok, because it is well sourced. Such arguments are not easy to refute in a situation when some NPOV-related RfC becomes flooded with numerous "keep as well sourced", and I do not understand how to fight against that: in my experience, RfC with numerous keeps (citing any policy) as a rule result in "keep", and non-neutral texts remain in the article. Of course, I mean the situation when we deal with a team of civil POV pushers, not ordinary users.
That is why we need some more or less formal tools that would allow admins to resolve such problems without becoming involved in content disputes. I think, the simplest way would be to separate RfCs on subcategoies: NOR-related, V-related and NPOV-related. Accordingly, during NPOV-related RfC the arguments: "keep as well sourced", or "keep as containing no original research" should be dismissed by closing admins. Accordingly, the during NPOV-related talk page discussion the posts citing WP:V as a main argument in favour of some text should be dismissed, and should not be taken into account neither by the discussion participants nor by admins (in a case of AE complaints). That would help to make out policy less toothless. --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re "you are detailing is a lack of enforcement rather than a problem with policy" In a situation when some dispute has long history, it is simply impossible for an uninvolved admin to adequately analyse a situation without more or less deep involvement into the essence of the dispute. However, after doing that he cannot be considered uninvolved any more. As a result, the admins prefer to look at the formal side of the dispute: if they see that both sides respond politely, provide sources in support of their views, cite policy, the most obvious conclusion is that they deal with a normal content dispute. To realise that a user, or a group of users repeatedly cites WP:V in support of their POV-charged edits, one has to deeply analyse the course of the dispute, and the admins simply are not allowed to do that.
If you want concrete example, I can provide some.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PS One more frequent argument from the POV-pushers is "we cannot judge about the sources, we just represent them fairly and accurately"....--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good and central point. That statement in your quote covers both legit things and bogus things, which makes it a hydra to do battle with when it is said in a bogus context. With respect to conditions placed on inclusion of material, it is correct. With respect to saying that such is a force or magic bullet for inclusion, there you have the bogus meanings. North8000 (talk) 16:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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 :::::Agreed. Which concrete improvements of the policy and guidelines should be made, in your opinion?--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 19:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 ::::::Well I shot my mouth off too early and you called my bluff.  I had been working on something regarding this at an essay but it's still a general regarding proposed fixes.  But here goes anyway:
+*'''Comment''': I believe that NPOV is flawed because (a) it is ambiguous (b) is mistakenly applied equally to general articles and to article specifically about minority views (c) editors mistaken believe that a point of view automatically fails NPOV. '''Example:''' [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight|Undue weight]] tells us that in "articles specifically about a minority viewpoint [..] the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail". However, the section on [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Giving_.22equal_validity.22|Giving "equal validity"]] tells us "Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship". Of course the latter is correct, why would we include details of a mainstream/majority view in ALL articles presenting the minority view, when all we need do is mention and link to it? '''Finally:''' we can always state a point of view neutrally using the appropriate language. For example, "the Moon is made of chesse" fails NPOV simple because it is misleading of the generally accept view. However, "Some Mexican folk tales believe the Moon is made of chesse"[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OK1R8HJ8BLsC&q=moon+cheese&dq=moon+cheese&hl=en&ei=nmvSToz9EoHpOYyNqaMP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA] is a fact, and hence is NPOV, even though it could be interpreted a POV we may not agree with. It is the points of view that are negotiable, it is NPOV that isn't --[[User:Iantresman|Iantresman]] ([[User talk:Iantresman|talk]]) 17:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 ==WP:NPOV core issue analysis and suggestions==