Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view
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Dealing with false statements from Trump and his surrogates
Food for thought, with implications for how our policies apply to Trump (and others):
- "We believe there is an objective truth, and we will hold you to that.
- "When you or your surrogates say or tweet something that is demonstrably wrong, we will say so, repeatedly. Facts are what we do, and we have no obligation to repeat false assertions; the fact that you or someone on your team said them is newsworthy, but so is the fact that they don’t stand up to scrutiny. Both aspects should receive equal weight." - An open letter to Trump from the US press corps, CJR
As a heads-up, there is a discussion centering around whether or not attributed opinions need coverage by secondary sources in order to use said opinion in articles. This discussion would greatly benefit from input from editors that understand WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, as well as basic Wikipedia sourcing policies. Thanks. That man from Nantucket (talk) 22:38, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Using subjective terms as fact
There's a discussion ongoing at Talk:Alkaline diet#Nonsense on whether it is appropriate to use the word "nonsense" to describe a subject in Wikipedia's narrative voice, if a reliable source also uses that term. At issue here are whether the descriptor "nonsense" can be considered neutral in the context of the fact that WP:NPOV cannot be trumped by consensus or other guidelines such as WP:FRINGE.
- In the context of talking about pseudoscience (a fad diet), "nonsense" is too strong a term and is non-neutral, and should not be used in WP's voice. "Invalid", "Disproven", "dismissed", "refuted", etc. are all much more neutrally-toned words that mean the same. I recognize from the page that there is much in the RSes against this diet, so I see no problem in including a quoted "nonsense" with attribution as to help provide a reader a sense of how much distaste they have for it, but certainly not a fact. --MASEM (t) 21:53, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks, it would be nice if someone chimed in there; I feel like I'm the lone voice in the wilderness.
- Otherwise, I'd like to discuss adding some clarity to this policy to cover terms stated in Wikipedia's voice. Even if there is a consensus that words like "nonsense" are neutral, the fact that consensus doesn't trump NPOV is relevant, but this policy doesn't really cover situations that give the appearance of bias based on word choice.
- WP:IMPARTIAL (the section "Impartial tone") touches on this, but it needs to be stronger. I suggest adding clarification such as "Choice of wording in article prose must avoid the appearance of bias. Any impartial tone that may be present in reliable sources must not be presented in Wikipedia's narrative voice, but rather quoted or properly attributed in the article prose." ~Anachronist (talk) 23:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Good and needed idea.North8000 (talk) 00:10, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
- We do need something, recognizing that there are terms that fall outside of a "formal" subset of the English language that one normally would use in academic works, that we should never state bare as fact, like "nonsense", or that we can state them as attributable claims. --MASEM (t) 00:41, 23 February 2017 (UTC)