Talk:Grail Movement

This is sick, and they arent even the original cult. Its just a offspring of the real thing. So find out what the main cult is then you can find out more about this cult? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.33.181 (talk) 09:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know of the Grail Movement 86.15.251.116 18:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

June 2008

Well, I had never heard of the group but I am sure there will be plenty of people taking a closer look. Does, anyone know of the "secret teaching/beliefs" that led to this inhumane behavior?PEACETalkAbout (talk) 02:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are referring to the Czech child abuse case, please note that the Czech Supreme Court has validated and upheld a previous court verdict that the Czech press article trying to link the Grail Movement to this case was falsified and untrue, and the newspaper had prined a retraction and apology on 21.12.2010. Emmisgood (talk) 02:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

removed rogue text and reference

The following was left as a comment, quotation, and rogue reference in this article. If someone wishes to verify and insert it, please do so.Renee (talk) 19:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Commented out this section. It needs to be incorporated into the article as prose.

"In the Light of Truth is published and distributed by the Grail Movement, with headquarters in Austria; there is practically no scholarly research available on the Grail Movement, and the only good and relatively recent overview by outsiders is a research paper written by two German Protestant theologians: Karin Verscht-Biener and Hans-Diether Reimer, Die "Gralsbewegung", Stuttgart. Evangelische Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen, 1991 (Series "Orientierungen und Berichte", N° 18)." Jean-François Mayer, University of Fribourg (Switzerland). "Healing for the Millenium: Master Dang and Spiritual Human Yoga". cesnur.org.

Concern re: disambiguation

There is an "International Grail Movement" that predates by almost 30 years the so-called Grail movement described here. The International Grail Movement is an international, interfaith women's movement that was begun by Catholic women in 1921. According to the web site Grail at Cornwall-on-Hudson, [1] they are "committed to spiritual search, social transformation, ecological sustainability and the release of women's energy throughout the world."

I have heard from Grail members that they are disturbed by the appearance of this other disturbing information as the only mention of Grail movement in wikipedia. But they are not people familiar with editing wikipedia. I also am unfamiliar with what is required to create a disambiguation page.

A disambiguation page needs to be created in order to distinguish these organizations. There is plenty of information available on the web to provide references for the earlier, women's Grail movement. I'm willing to write that page. Prairiefyre (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)Prairiefyre

I share this concern for disambiguation, as I was searching for information on the earlier Grail Moverment, and found this very strange article about a very strange group. SteveH (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

• I have created a separate page for the similarly named women's movement, at Grail (women's movement) and updated Grail (disambiguation) accordingly. Also, this page and the new page now have respective "about" tags at the top. -- Chonak (talk) 03:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Deletions

I've reverted the article back to 02:53, June 23, 2008 to undo a series of major deletions of sourced material made without explanation. If there's anything with a source in the article that doesn't belong please give a reason.   Will Beback  talk  05:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Czech cannibalism case

This was deleted from the article:

• Czech cannibalism case
• In June 2008, in the city of Brno, Czech Republic, cult members were arrested for torturing and eating the son of cult member Karla Mauerova who was complicit in the atrocities. The seven year-old son, Ondrej, had been partially skinned after his mother kept him in a cage for months, inviting relatives and other cult members to eat his flesh. Ondrej and his nine year-old brother Jakub were kept in cages or handcuffed to tables as they were ritually tortured, burned, and whipped with belts.[ref]Boy eaten by family The Sun, June 20, 2008[/ref] The boys were rescued only after a neighbour picked up evidence of the abuse on a baby monitor.

The edit summary was:

• There was no cannibalism reported in this case and there were no movement members involved. The newspaper publisher was ordered to apologize for injustly connecting the Grail Movement with this case. [2]

If the newspaper retracted its story then I agree that this should be omitted. Can we see evidence of the apology? When was it printed? The story is still on the newspaper's website.[3]

• • Emmisgood: The original newspaper's story was in a Czech newspaper (referenced on the actual Wikipedia page), which the Sun newspaper, amongst many others, picked up and reprinted without verification. The Czech Supreme Court validated and upheld an earlier court finding that the Czech newspaper article was falsified and erronous and that any references to the people involved being members of or leaders of the Grail Movement to be false, and ordered a retraction and a public notification on the 27th November 2010. The retraction occurred in the Czech newspaper on the 21st December 2010. Emmisgood (talk) 02:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The Daily Mail had a piece which mentioned the Grail Movement.[4] Was that also retracted? Checking Proquest, I see this article that tentatively connects the incident to the Grail Movement:

A CZECH court has jailed five people involved in abusing children in rituals linked to a bizarre religious cult.

[..] Investigators believe Ms Skrlova was being somehow groomed to become a future "deity" for followers of the small sect to which she belonged, which broke away from the larger Grail Movement several years ago.

The Mauerova family and several other people involved in the case are members of the cult, which is thought to be led by Ms Skrlova's missing father.

— Czechs jailed over child abuse linked to cult DANIEL McLAUGHLIN. Irish Times. Dublin: Oct 25, 2008. pg. 11

That, printed just over a year ago, is the most up-to-date and relevant discussion of the matter that I've found. If there's no objection I'll restore the material and make sure it reflects reliable sources.   Will Beback  talk  12:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

• I sincerely apologize for an inaccurate edit. I have now obtained a precise formulation as well as reliable sources for the article from the spokesman of the Grail Movement in the Czech Republic and I am pasting his reaction here:

Dear Mr. Beback,

I have rewritten the questionable chapter, as the story really happened, and asked Mrs.Strakova to convey it friendly to Wiki. I myself am open to any question, supplement or contact, having nothing to hide.

Best regards Artur Zatloukal, spokesman of the Grail Movement in the Czech Republic, kontakt@hnuti.gralu.cz

Strakova (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that re-write, it's much better. One problem though is with this paragrph:

• The Grail Movement responded vigorously at press conferences and in articles, stating that people involved had been previously part of it, but the Movement broke with them 11 years ago, 1996, their behavior being quite opposite to the Grail Movement’s principles. They must have probably established its own bizarre cult, having, however, nothing to do with the Grail Movement. This statement was supported by the opinion of all Czech religionists inquired ([ref]http://www.stampach.cz/pelmel_detail.php?id=194[/ref], in Czech).

What is the nature of that linked source? Is it a blog, a newspaper, or what? Who is the author? Also, I'm just reading it in a horrible Google translation, [5] but I don't see where it makes the assertion about " all Czech religionists". Is that from a different source, or did I just miss it in the translation?   Will Beback  talk  21:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the hint at the lax reference.

The linked source mentioned is a website of a leading religion sociologist Dr. Stampach, whose article was printed in Mlada Fronta DNES 22. 5. 2007. Today, it is available on the newspaper's web for registered users only, so I did give his own website's reference. But, sorry, without an appropriate explanation.

The PC-translated text "The solid religionistických sources are the high religious groups ." means in human terms "In solid religion sociology sources, nothing is referred about this free religious group (the Grail Movement is meant), which might justify suspicion of child abuse and kidnapping." etc.

So I would like to set it right, explaining it and increasing the number of religion scientist's references, inquired in the case. I beg again the younger and more computer-wise Mrs. Straková to rearrange it, incl. renumbering the references.

Best regards Artur Zatloukal

Strakova (talk) 10:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

falsified

Can someone with some knowledge of the case please clean that up. It's unreadable right now. --Cabazap (talk) 06:26, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Is this a Christian offshoot or not?

I notice the big "WikiProject Christianity" thing on the talk page, and yet no mention of Christ or Jesus on the main article or its talk page. Either "WikiProject Christianity" needs to be removed or Christianity needs to be added to the main article. Doubledragons (talk) 19:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)