Talk:Dropkick Murphys

There's a link to "Spicy McHaggis," but it's recursive - the Spicy McHaggis page is a redirect straight back to the Dropkick Murphys page. What's up with that?

I came here for info on the band, but all you've put on the site is negative criticism. Maybe y'all know some positive things about the band you could add?

--Editing 13 March 2006-- I altered the bit about Spicy McHaggis' reason for leaving, after reading several interviews on the band's website that he met an English woman on tour and left to marry her.

Why have we added Celtic metal to the Dropkicks page? I mean, whoever did it I can understand where they're coming from, but Celtic metal is based entirely on Celtic mythology in general (not singally Irish mythology). And plus, the Dropkicks rarely, in fact have never really placed any references to Irish mythology in their music (with one exception, the name of the song The Legend of Finn McCumhail)

Is it just my own experience or do the Dropkicks have a large following among racist skins? Is it even worth mentioning if it's true?

  Believe me, this is not true.

How can you be both Irish and a skinhead? It's almost like (though not quite as extreme as) a Jewish Nazi.

-- I'd debate this. Northern Ireland has the highest number of racial attacks in the UK, and it can't be just blamed on Unionists. To say that Irish people cannot be racist is such a pathetic assumption. Obviously the Irish were attacked by the racists in the UK but your argument cannot be so clear cut.

I'm not saying ALL skinheads are racist, I'm saying that skinhead is as British as fish & chips wrapped in a Union Flag and am perplexed as to why an Irish-American band would want to jump on that particular bandwagon.

--That's only if you're talking about Irish people all over. Republic of Ireland is one of the least racist nations, in fact its only recently that ROI has had its first racially motivated murder. Generally, they aren't a racist people (don't argue with me, I'm mixed race, my mother's Irish, I've been to Ireland twenty times and travelled most of the country and met loads of people who had no problem with my skin colour). You also say Northern Ireland, but that's Britain. Northern Ireland isn't technically part of the Republic of Ireland, and hence not "Irish."

This is clearly heading off topic, but the point is still valid. Firstly just because you have visited the country a number of times you can't say for definite there aren't racists in Ireland (read http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/rar/diary97to2000.html for example). You also say that Northern Ireland is part of Britain (not true as its part of the United Kingdom which is not the same thing) and that it isn't technically part of RoI - I think a sizeable proportion of the Catholics in the North would disagree. Basically all I am saying is that reality isn't as clear cut as you make out.Paul Tew 23:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Not all skinheads are racists.

Real skinheads come from the UK, racist or not, Irish they ain't.

Well, I wouldn't advise you to say that in any South Boston neighborhoods you may happen to visit.

-- The original skinheads come from Jamaica that influenced working class English youths in the form of Ska. I think Agnostic Front would also debate that they can't be skinheads because they aren't from the UK. Please do some research before stating your beliefs as fact.

The original skinheads were INFLUENCED by Jamaican Rude Boys. Please do some research before stating your beliefs as fact.

There were actually black skinheads in the UK. If the Jamaican's hadn't got very short or shaved heads then how can they have influenced the white skinheads? Paul Tew 23:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to read up on what a skinhead is. Black people mostly have their hair cut short to this day - does that make them skinheads?

Yes considering that the original skinheads in the UK were dockers and were made up of black and white people. Paul Tew 17:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Agnostic Front and Dropkick Murphys might be more approriately termed "plastic skinheads".

Skinhead

Seeing as what lies above started with the question about the Dropkicks having a following of racist skins, it's fair to say that whether or not the Dropkicks have a following of racist skins is no reason to denounce them as a racist band. In fact, there's not much reason to assume that their skinhead following does have racist skins in it. That's not to say that they're not racist because they're Irish (or Irish American even), it's because they just aren't racist. Basically, just because a band may have racist fans who "like" their music doesn't make the actual band racist. It's a big accusation to be calling someone racist or accusing them of having Nazi sympathies, so be careful next time.

--Criticism--

Under the criticism subtitle, do you think we should add a reference to the song "Wicked Sensitive Crew?" I don't know whether it's a response to Screeching Weasel's song, but certainly that Dropkicks song is in response to the way people have placed them under an image of the "working class toughguy"?

Yeah, it probably would be worth a mention as it does indeed seem like a response to the sorts of sentiments voiced in "Tightrope" and the criticism the Murphys have received. Whether the song is a serious effort to portray themselves as "sensitive punks" is another matter, though.

"In the same entry, King goes on to say...Dropkicks entertained the guitarist from far-right wing punk band Skrewdriver" - this is nonsense. There were two incarnations of Skrewdriver, the first in 1977 was not racist at all. Donaldson resurrected them in 1982 as the pro-Nazi band they're famous for. I think King doesn't make this distinction, because if it was the old guitarist from Skrewdriver, then there's no point to make. Also, the Dropkicks didnt "entertain" the guitarist, he merely showed up backstage. That's your point of view whether they interacted with him or not. Plut it's a rather biased source

Edit

I changed a bit about the Dropkicks taking a break in February 2006. That's not possible because their last date on the European tour with Less Than Jake is 30 April, so that can't be.

I rearranged the wording a bit in regards to "The Warrior's Code" featuring "the hits" 'Sunshine Highway' and Tessie. Both songs received a considerable amount of airplay, especially from stations local to the Boston area, but I don't think either would truly be considered "hits". Nhbelongstome 00:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Criticism

The criticism section was removed. It's out of place. The band pages for Screeching Weasel and the Queers do not have criticism sections (not even about something like "taking over the punk movement for the white middle class"). Besides, you can't infuse a page like this with racist intent on the basis of undocumented hearsay by people that are known to make inflammatory remarks (bandmembers from the Queers). The Dropkick Murphys are not racist. They've toured under the cause of racial unity before, and they've done shows in Asia. Please see the following text, which has as much, if not more, relevance and documentation than the criticism section:

- "There's a lot of people that are confused and even think that we're a racist band just because we have somewhat of a skinhead following," Casey said. "It's almost like you get sick of talking about this with so many people. I think anyone who buys our CDs and listens to the music would know we aren't. But most people who have that negative and closed-minded attitude don't listen to the music."

Ironically enough, the band has done tours to benefit the Anti-Racist Action group and participated in the Unity Festival to promote racial harmony.

"Sometimes I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over again to educate the public that not all skinheads are racist, and as a matter of fact there's a large majority of them that aren't," Casey said. "What with the power of the media and them seeming to want to keep that misinterpretation going because it's probably more entertaining, I find that it's almost like a battle you can't win." - Source: http://www.alligator.org/edit/detours/01-spring/010315/murphys.html

I've just spent the last half hour or so looking for information about the criticism and couldn't find anything, at least from Frenzal Rhomb. It appears they're fond of the Dropkick Murphys. All the interviews I read were very positive between the two. As an added note, the portion is copied wholesale from the Queers page from their criticism of modern punk. Please, one place or the other - not both.

65.78.8.9 20:35, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I've looked around for sources for the information I've removed and cannot find a source for it. If you're going to revert the page can you please at least source the information you're putting back in? As far as I can tell the Frenzal Rhomb information is patently false, as all the interviews I've read Frenzal Rhomb has nothing but good things to say regarding Dropkick Murphys. And with respect to the criticism made by the Queers, it's already on the Queers page. Why are the Dropkick Murphys singled out? The quote is also applied to Rancid. I'm thinking this is such an issue because it's removal of criticism. There are surely things to criticize Dropkick Murphys for, but can you at least verify them and cite the source when you put it in? I know band pages don't seem to have the same sourcing as the other articles, but that should definitely change. Cite things you've put in! 65.78.8.9 23:05, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I've found a source for the Queer's criticism: http://www.vueweekly.com/articles/default.aspx?i=3048 I'm not sure how reliable the site is. However, the Queers also mention Anti-Flag by name here. If you find it necessary to include this information in this article (as it is already in the Queers article), you should probably put it in the Anti-Flag article, as well. Thoughts? 65.78.8.9 23:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

This is just the kind of silly partisan censorship that kills Wikipedia. Whether or not the criticism is valid in your view and whether or not the pages for other bands are similarly structured, it is a fact that criticism has been directed at DM by very well-known punk bands and that this has had significant ramifications for the punk community. Removing this information from public view makes nobody smarter. It seems, from reading above, that DM have a cogent response to their critics. Why not put that out in public view so their critics, and those inclined to agree with them, can be informed of DM's response? Simply wiping relevant commentary on a band just because you don't like it is very, very childish. The Queers and Frenzal Rhomb quotes come from Joe Queer's weblog on The Queers' website.

It's also hard to see how the criticism is "out of place". Simply because you do not like or agree with it does not make it so. The criticism that the Murphys have attracted from leading pop-punk bands like Screeching Weasel and The Queers has caused (or at least reinforced) divisions within the punk community and, as such, is a good part of what makes this band relevant outside of their fanbase. Removing anything critical - or even analytical - from the page reduces this to a puff-piece that could be lifted from the band's webpage. What good does that do anyone outside of the band themselves?

The Frenzal Rhomb anecdote was recounted by Joe Queer in his weblog, as is clearly mentioned in the text.

Thanks for your reply. In the future, please sign your comments with four tildes (~). In addition, please refrain from making personal attacks (eg. "silly" with reference to partisan censorship, along with the allegation that it "kills Wikipedia." and actions being "very, very childish"). Your note on including the criticism because it is from "notable" pop-punk bands is odd, because notability is largely a function of opinion when dealing with topics outside of the mainstream. I am also aware that it was "clearly mentioned in the text." How about finding a link to it? In my opinion, what's "killing Wikipedia" is information that hasn't been sourced at all. And finally, the text indicating that the response does not answer the main thrust of the argument is wrong. The insinuation is that DM are racist by association. Thanks. 65.78.8.9 22:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The last sentence of the criticisms is very confusing.Will 02:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)