Talk:Circumcision: Difference between revisions
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== Realistic death risk == |
== Realistic death risk == |
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The one reference for circumcision-related death is 1:500,000 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-AAFP_2007-16. That is second-hand information from a very old source, which was not peer-reviewed, but just a 1953 letter to a journal editor: Speert, H. (1953). (Letter to editor) Obstetrics and Gynecology, 2, 104. The most recent estimate, and seemingly comprehensive, is: Bollinger, D. ( |
The one reference for circumcision-related death is 1:500,000 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-AAFP_2007-16. That is second-hand information from a very old source, which was not peer-reviewed, but just a 1953 letter to a journal editor: Speert, H. (1953). (Letter to editor) Obstetrics and Gynecology, 2, 104. The most recent estimate, and seemingly comprehensive, is: Bollinger, D. (2010). Lost boys: An estimate of US circumcision-related infant deaths. Thymos: Journal of Boyhood Studies, 4(1):78-90.. It says the rate is about 117 per year, or an incidence of 9.01 per 100,000. At one time, this article was cited. I think this rate should be used instead of the present one. [[User:Frank Koehler|Frank Koehler]] ([[User talk:Frank Koehler|talk]]) 23:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC) |
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:: Although this site is apparently anti CC it includes what appears to be solid references to a peer reviewed journal supporting a rate of 9/100,000.http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html (THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90) |
:: Although this site is apparently anti CC it includes what appears to be solid references to a peer reviewed journal supporting a rate of 9/100,000.http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html (THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90) |
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::Does the 1/500,000 figure derive from worlwide figures or from USA ? If either does it include those boys who have died from brain damage induced by herpes contracted during circumcision, or those conducted in unsanitary third world conditions ? |
::Does the 1/500,000 figure derive from worlwide figures or from USA ? If either does it include those boys who have died from brain damage induced by herpes contracted during circumcision, or those conducted in unsanitary third world conditions ? |
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:In sum, if I were a parent researching circumcision on the Internet for my newborn son this page would be at the top of the search results I'd want to know that death was a possibility and what that risk ratio might be. [[User:Frank Koehler|Frank Koehler]] ([[User talk:Frank Koehler|talk]]) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC) |
:In sum, if I were a parent researching circumcision on the Internet for my newborn son this page would be at the top of the search results I'd want to know that death was a possibility and what that risk ratio might be. [[User:Frank Koehler|Frank Koehler]] ([[User talk:Frank Koehler|talk]]) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC) |
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In case anyone is wondering who this "Dan Bollinger" cited by Frank Koehler is, check out [http://intactamerica.org/danbollinger this page]. Quote: <i>"For most of my life I’ve been troubled by night terrors that I later became convinced were an early recollection of my circumcision at age three-days."</i> With all due respect to Mr. Bollinger, whom I've never met, but the idea of citing this gentleman as a reliable source on medical issues (or, for that matter, any issue that lends itself to investigation by the scientific method) seems absurd to me on its face.[[Special:Contributions/82.113.121.238|82.113.121.238]] ([[User talk:82.113.121.238|talk]]) 16:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC) |
In case anyone is wondering who this "Dan Bollinger" cited by Frank Koehler is, check out [http://intactamerica.org/danbollinger this page]. Quote: <i>"For most of my life I’ve been troubled by night terrors that I later became convinced were an early recollection of my circumcision at age three-days."</i> With all due respect to Mr. Bollinger, whom I've never met, but the idea of citing this gentleman as a reliable source on medical issues (or, for that matter, any issue that lends itself to investigation by the scientific method) seems absurd to me on its face.[[Special:Contributions/82.113.121.238|82.113.121.238]] ([[User talk:82.113.121.238|talk]]) 16:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::I don't find that problematic. So he has a personal interest in the topic, I think it safe to say that most scientists do. His work should be judged on its scientific methodology, not the author's early recollections. You didn't say whether or not you had read the article, so I'm guessing you haven't. I found it online here: http://www.readperiodicals.com//201004/2026622071.html[[User:Frank Koehler|Frank Koehler]] ([[User talk:Frank Koehler|talk]]) 17:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC) |
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(I moved this into a new section. [[User:Frank Koehler|Frank Koehler]] ([[User talk:Frank Koehler|talk]]) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)) |
(I moved this into a new section. [[User:Frank Koehler|Frank Koehler]] ([[User talk:Frank Koehler|talk]]) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)) |
Revision as of 17:42, 25 December 2012
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Outdated statements
This article should not be citing 1999 statements. They are irrelevant and out of date for medical purposes (per WP:MEDRS). Biosthmors (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
- I agree this article needs to have its sources reviewed, pruned and updated... but please keep in mind this is a highly-watched and contentious article. If I were you, I'd move a little slower and bring the new sources and proposed changes to the talk pages for review and discussion first. You might find that making big changes fast will be met with lots of resistance, and you'll actually achieve your goal of getting the article updated done faster by going a little slower. That's just what I'd do...
Zad68
19:44, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
- I did the same kind of source review for this article that I did for Medical analysis. This article's sourcing is in better shape than that one, but there's clearly some updating we need to do. If we take 2006 as a cut-off year, about half the sourcing is out of date.
Sources table
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- Starting to do some source updating today. I'm basically working my way down from the top of the list and trying to update claims based on sources too old for WP:MEDRS with new content and sources, and removing where I have to.
Zad68
17:27, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
- Starting to do some source updating today. I'm basically working my way down from the top of the list and trying to update claims based on sources too old for WP:MEDRS with new content and sources, and removing where I have to.
- That's great. In general, I wouldn't worry about older sources if they are not being cited for biomedical information. If they are used for historical or cultural facts, a medicine guideline wouldn't necessarily apply. Biosthmors (talk) 19:11, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, luckily the 1442 reference isn't being used to support any medical claims! :)
Zad68
20:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, luckily the 1442 reference isn't being used to support any medical claims! :)
- Good to hear. =) Biosthmors (talk) 21:30, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
- Agree that outdated statements (>10 years old) should be removed. Yobol (talk) 21:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
- Working on it, largely in the order you see in the table above. Hopefully you'll see the sources table have more and more strike-throughs as I remove the old sources.
Zad68
02:46, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Working on it, largely in the order you see in the table above. Hopefully you'll see the sources table have more and more strike-throughs as I remove the old sources.
- Updated...
Zad68
21:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- Updated...
Medical papers become outdated when they are shown to be inaccurate by newer papers, not simply by the passage of time or an arbitrary number of years. For example. Gairdner's 1949 article "The Fate of the Foreskin" is considered to be a classic work that has withstood the test of time.
Sugarcube73 (talk) 13:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Older medical papers that use investigative methodologies that withstand scrutiny over time, and produce results that are in line with later findings, will be incorporated into the analysis and results found in newer reliable secondary sources. Per WP:MEDRS we use the newer reliable secondary sources, not the older papers.
Zad68
13:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Some notes
- Not important for GA, but would be for FA: There is an inconsistent citation style, particularly with respect to author names. [1] I suggest using the Diberri template filler for a consistent format. Also, because the article uses list-defined references and mixes SFN with Ref Harv with regular citation templates, I find the article very hard to work on, so will leave citation work to someone else. (I hate SFN and list-defined refs, would use the Diberri cite templates for consistency as is done in most medical articles.)
Done making cite journal citation consistent in Diberri style
Zad68
19:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)In progress still need to do cite book and cite web
Zad68
19:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- It won't matter for GA, but would for FA: I wouldn't cite this to Mayo Clinic: Circumcision has a protective effect against the risks of penile cancer in men, and cervical cancer in the female sexual partners of heterosexual men. Penile cancer is rare, with about 1 case per 100,000 men in developed countries, ref name=mayo_clinic_2012/ I'm still looking, but generally the sourcing is excellent-- replace Mayo with a journal review if you can.
Done removed Mayo Clinic as a sub-par source, used existing source to support
Zad68
19:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Done looks like you did most of these, I just moved the one image in Judaism
Zad68
19:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Turning to prose issues, I jumped down to the middle of the article for a sampling:
- Circumcision is (arguably) the world's oldest planned surgical procedure, hypothesized to be over 15,000 years old, well pre-dating recorded history.
- First, no need for parentheticals-- generally, anything worth saying in an encyclopedia is worth saying. Second, the reader is given no indication why this weasly word is used or who is doing the hypothesizing. When we "argue" or "hypothesize", we need to attribute. "Well" is redundant.
- In the study of the history of circumcision, there are two main "streams" that are followed
- Confusing. When I first read the sentence, I think what follows will relate to two streams of thought. The text that follows is all about geography. So I'm left not knowing what these "streams" are referring to.
- Evidence exists that circumcision was in general practice in the Arabian peninsula in the 4th millennium BCE, and moved into the area that is modern-day Iraq with the Sumerians and the Semites.
- Convoluted. Evidence suggests that circumcision was practiced in the Arabian peninsula in the 4th millennium BCE, and the Sumerians and the Semites brought it into the area that is modern-day Iraq.
- Or at least, you would have to say "the practice moved into the area". Circumcision doesn't move.
Done I see my wording misled you factually, corrected
Zad68
03:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
OurThe earliest historical record of circumcision comes from Egypt ...
Done 03:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Redundant prose can be reduced, sample: No single well-accepted theory
has been put forth toexplains the significance of circumcision to the Egyptians, but it appears to have been endowed with great honor and importance as a rite of passage into adulthood, done in a public ceremony emphasizingthe ideas ofthe continuation of family generations and fertility.
- Repetitive, purity, purification, try to recast the sentence to vary the prose: In addition to possible hygenic reasons, for the purity-obsessed Egyptians circumcision surely concerned purification,
- it was an outward sign of their covenant with God, and enabled the penis to allow a Jew to fulfill properly the commandment to create offspring. Outside of considering that it was taken up by the Jews
- Ugh, lost. I know that penii have minds of their own, but "enabled the penis to allow a Jew"? I don't know what this wants to say.
- Outside of considering that it was taken up by the Jews purely as a biblical commandment, scholars have suggested that Abraham and his followers adopted circumcision from neighboring cultures
as a meansto make penile hygiene easier in hot, sandy climates; as a rite of passage into adulthood; or as a form of blood sacrifice.
- Ugh, ok, this needs a lot of help. The first part is either redundant to prior text, or should be a separate sentence, but the "outside of considering" is most awkward. Was the Bible written then?
- Circumcision was not taken up by the Jews purely as a religious mandate; scholars have suggested that Abraham and his followers adopted circumcision to make penile hygiene easier in hot, sandy climates; as a rite of passage into adulthood; or as a form of blood sacrifice.
Done with a bit of a tweak for accuracy to sources
Zad68
04:34, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, that's a mini review of prose, samples only, you should probably work on a copyedit before going to GA. I'll try to pop in occasionally. Very nice sourcing! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:24, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your input! I know the prose is... um... uneven. I will work on fixing everything you mentioned. Appreciate it!
Zad68
21:32, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I've continued to tinker here and there (I've left some inline queries, just remove them when you fix), and I think you've got yourself a future FA here, but you've got some work to do to get there. It needs little prose fixes everywhere I look ... sometimes it's linking (over and underlinking-- you don't have to link terms that everyone knows, but you do need to link jargon and technical terms), sometimes it's some lack of clarity in the writing. My suggestion at this point (because this will be GA soon) is to work on the technical stuff I've pointed out, then set the article aside for a week or two to gain distance from the prose, and then come back and re-visit the prose with new eyes, thinking about whether every sentence is comprehensible to someone unfamiliar with the text. This article is in great shape, and with just a bit more work, it will be over the hump, but it's prose, not sourcing-- fixing an article with bad sourcing is awful, cleaning up prose is doable! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- Delighted! Will get to work, thanks again.
Zad68
17:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
No sexual drawbacks ?
About five years ago a male (heterosexual) friend of mine suddenly said "I'm going to have a small sergury tomorrow...". When he told me that , I tried to warn him. But obviosly he had some kind of infection that troubled him for long. He now sais that he is impotent due to the operation. He has not been with a woman for five years ! The operation was made when he (and I) was little above 40 years old. Perhaps there is no problem with this sergury if it's done pre-puberty. But if done as adult then I would not recommend it. If there is no religious issues I cannot see why circumcision is done at all. The african HIV-study, if true, may very well got to do with less sexual activity after circumcision. But about statistics that is not a lie I've read about a toothpaste that was proven to reduce the number of karies attacks by 20%. A group of 100 people had tested the new toothpaste and they actually got 20% fewes holes according to thestudy. But... it was never revealed that the tooth-paste-company had used 20 groups of 100 people each, and used the result from the best group. Several other groups ha got an increased number of holes by about 20%. I do not imply that the african stydy has used such methods, but to be certain that they are right in their conclusions many independant studies must also be done - and with about the same result (and including a study if sexual pattern is not changed by the circumcision). Castration must be an even better way of reducing HIV... 83.249.168.22 (talk) 02:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Johnny Eriksson, I am sorry to hear about your friend's medical problems, and hope they are resolved soon. With that, you need to know a Wikipedia article's talk page is really not for general discussion, it is only for discussing improvements to the article. The Talk page is not for discussion of our personal opinions. Regarding the studies, we use the best available sourcing for the statements the article makes. I understand your concerns about that results of the African studies, and your point about the toothpaste tests. In this case of circumcision and HIV, there are many, many high-quality scientific sources that support the statement the article is making. A Wikipedia article reflects the consensus of the best sources, and if the best-quality sources all report the same thing, as in this case, that is what the article will state. Thanks for your feedback. Cheers...
Zad68
03:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the fast reply. Since a part of this article deals with religous aspects, I find it strange to not mention what Chistianity has to say. In "The acts of the Apostles" (Cyprus meeting) is stated than no not Jewish followers of Chistianity do not need to be circumcised. Although this may seems a bit vague, You certainly may be circumcised as a Christan, but still I think it would be a benefit for the article as such, to mention that Chistianity has no real thoughts about the issue. The Cyprus meeting was of great importance and ought to be mention in the religious part. (just pretend that the outcome of the meeting would have been the opposit, all Chistians must be circumcised) /Johnny Eriksson Sweden (my IP-number is changing all the time, but thanks for the invition, Zed) 83.249.168.22 (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2012 (UTC)83.249.168.22 (talk) 10:14, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Done As requested I just added a short paragraph on circumcision and Christianity.
Zad68
02:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
FWIW
- This post strangely appeared on my talk page, copying it to here: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello SandyGeorgia !
Since the article "Circumcision" seems to be locked and controlled by You, at the religious part, I think that You should add
"Christianity" there aswell. In the Acts of the Apostles is describen that on the Cyprys meeting , the deciples and other of the very early Chistians decided that "unjewish" followers of the new faith, did not need to became cicumcised. This is well as relevant as what jewesand muslims belive. I see no otherway than contact You about this issue. Best reguards Johnny Eriksson, Sweden 83.249.168.22 (talk) 02:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- The Circumcision article is locked and controlled by me? Who knew? Not me. From whence came such a notion. Gee, I don't even own one of those things, but I did edit the article once or twice. I will copy your post to Talk:Circumcision so the propah authorities with penii can deal with it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I misunderstood something. There is a lock. The article history file though shows (to my knowlidge) that You can edit it. I've only used Wikipedia for editing a few times. Mainly to correct errors. Sorry again.
Hello Johnny Eriksson... you are right, the article could have more content about circumcision and Christianity. I will be adding content to the article about circumcision and Coptic Christians soon. The article does already mention Paul's views on circumcision, but it does need more information on Christianity's general view of circumcision today. Thank you for pointing out these areas that need improvement, I will work on it.
Zad68
02:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)- And I'm sorry to You too Zeb, did not notice You already had answered my suggestion. Sorry and Cheers! 83.249.168.22 (talk) 10:20, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Done Short paragraph on circumcision and Christianity added.
Zad68
03:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- And I'm sorry to You too Zeb, did not notice You already had answered my suggestion. Sorry and Cheers! 83.249.168.22 (talk) 10:20, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
One-Third????????????????
Um NOBODY estimates that 1/3 of men are circumcised. EVERY ESTIMATE is at 1/5 (one-fifth) 20%. Even the source used for this bad quote says 1/3 at most to 1/6, 1/3 being unlikely and 1/5 being the most common estimate.
China's, India's, and Europe's males are over 2/3 of the male population right there. Only 700 - 800 million men are cut. That is only 20% of men.
Who the hell is editing this horrible article?
75.1.54.56 (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
sale of excised foreskins to cosmetics or med research industry and also the foreskin of jesus
Should the article contain reference to the above ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 10:07, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- <siiigh!!!> It all sounds like BS to me. IMO opinion no, not unless we have a) Encyclopedic themes to hang it on, b) Unimpeachable, articulate, verifiable, accessible sources etc. C) It should be aired in the Talk page first and some degree of consensus attained first. d) the questions of harvesting, sale, interested parties and applications (as opposed to simple truth or reliability) should be dealt with separately if so. Etc etc... Look: even mentioning this sort of thing exposes us to "hatred, ridicule, or contempt", so there is nothing that ill-willed enemies of civilised discourse would like better than for us to mention it. That is not in itself a show-stopper, but it is a hell of a show-cautioner. I am frequently inclined to react like the chap foregoing, who spoke of this horrible bloody article. JonRichfield (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
hatred, ridicule, or contempt" - who gets exposed to them ? WP ? foreskin choppers ? foreskin sellers ?http://web.archive.org/web/20080204011552/http://www.nbc10.com/health/1808693/detail.html is one initial reference. --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 13:28, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- Regarding sale of excised foreskins: I agree with Jon, "No," at least not here, and Jon articulated the problems well. First, such material appears off-topic for this article, and shouldn't be added here as trivia, which is how I interpret what Jon means by "encyclopedic themes to hang it on". It's appropriate at foreskin (or at least could be appropriate) where it is already covered. Second (and here I am only talking about content that should appear at foreskin) I agree that such material needs appropriate sourcing. The 2008 NBC 10 transcript about the "TNS Recovery Complex" wrinkle cream--or even if we had several like it--wouldn't be sufficient sourcing for a general statement, because it would be synth based in primary sources. I did a PubMed search for a review article covering the subject of the use of foreskins by the pharmaceutical industry and did not find anything. What is at foreskin now is poor quality content that needs to be addressed.
Regarding the foreskin of Jesus: This subject also would seem to be more appropriate at foreskin rather than here. This article already does mention the circumcision of Jesus, and wikilinks to it, in the history section; that article covers and links to Holy Prepuce.
Zad68
03:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC)- I'd completely disagree with that assessment. I see no reason not to put Holy Prepuce in see also. The sale of foreskins should be included in the article concerning the harvest of foreskins. --Nouniquenames 04:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Jon and Zad ; Circumcision is chopping off foreskins, but we should not mention what happens to the chopped off foreskins in the chopping article ? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Definitely and decidedly not. Not unless we can find something encyclopaedic (read: "Constructive, interesting, edifying and educational") to say about them. It need not be big, it need not be earth-shaking or even seriously important, but it must be worth saying in the contexts of WP. Can we find anything like that? Maybe, and if so I support its inclusion, but just the fact that it concerns something between the thighs won't cut it, if you will excuse the expression. If we cannot find anything worthwhile, do you support its inclusion? And if so, why? Or must there be a "why"? JonRichfield (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- This is the section on medical re-usage of foreskinsin the foreskin article. It is well written and researched. :
- Definitely and decidedly not. Not unless we can find something encyclopaedic (read: "Constructive, interesting, edifying and educational") to say about them. It need not be big, it need not be earth-shaking or even seriously important, but it must be worth saying in the contexts of WP. Can we find anything like that? Maybe, and if so I support its inclusion, but just the fact that it concerns something between the thighs won't cut it, if you will excuse the expression. If we cannot find anything worthwhile, do you support its inclusion? And if so, why? Or must there be a "why"? JonRichfield (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Foreskin-based medical and consumer products
- Foreskins obtained from circumcision procedures are frequently used by biochemical and micro-anatomical researchers to study the structure and proteins of human skin. In particular, foreskins obtained from newborns have been found to be useful in the manufacturing of more human skin.[56]
- Human growth factors derived from newborns' foreskins are used to make a commercial anti-wrinkle skin cream, TNS Recovery Complex.[57]
- Foreskins of babies are also used for skin graft tissue,[58][59][60] and for β-interferon-based drugs.[61]
- Foreskin fibroblasts have been used in biomedical research.[62]
- The circumcision article should have a similar but maybe slightly smaller section. An examination of how different religions or societies differ in disposing of the foreskins they cut off might be worthwhile too.
- An examination of how much they fetch at resale might be edifying too. De-Constructive, interesting, edifying and educational also ?
- Would we write a WP article on sweetcorn describing cultivation but omitting any material on consumption ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 20:45, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- The flaws in this analogy are that 1) the analogous article would not be maize but rather an article on corn harvest (there isn't one, but the section on Production in maize does not cover end-uses, in line with what we are saying--end-uses of the foreskin should not be covered here but at foreskin), and 2) corn is raised for the explicit purpose of harvest, sale and consumption, and I have not seen a reliable source stating that this is the case for foreskins. Further, the content from foreskin you're quoting above I would in no way characterize as "well written and researched." The first sentence is sourced to a 1995 (the article inaccurately says 1999) popular-press article from a small newspaper, and suffers from a particularly awful case of WP:SYNTHESIS by taking the article--a primary source which describes a proposed business that actually was not underway at the time--and uses it to make an unsupported general statement. It does this several other times with articles from the Orange County Business Journal (2002), Wired magazine (1999), a Medscape article that mentions neither "foreskin" nor "circumcision", Businessweek (2008), and New York Times (1992). See WP:MEDRS, WP:NOR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE for discussions on why the sourcing is insufficient and that article content violates Wikipedia policy. What should happen is that the entire paragraph should be ripped out of foreskin. It should not be copied here.
Zad68
03:30, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- The flaws in this analogy are that 1) the analogous article would not be maize but rather an article on corn harvest (there isn't one, but the section on Production in maize does not cover end-uses, in line with what we are saying--end-uses of the foreskin should not be covered here but at foreskin), and 2) corn is raised for the explicit purpose of harvest, sale and consumption, and I have not seen a reliable source stating that this is the case for foreskins. Further, the content from foreskin you're quoting above I would in no way characterize as "well written and researched." The first sentence is sourced to a 1995 (the article inaccurately says 1999) popular-press article from a small newspaper, and suffers from a particularly awful case of WP:SYNTHESIS by taking the article--a primary source which describes a proposed business that actually was not underway at the time--and uses it to make an unsupported general statement. It does this several other times with articles from the Orange County Business Journal (2002), Wired magazine (1999), a Medscape article that mentions neither "foreskin" nor "circumcision", Businessweek (2008), and New York Times (1992). See WP:MEDRS, WP:NOR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE for discussions on why the sourcing is insufficient and that article content violates Wikipedia policy. What should happen is that the entire paragraph should be ripped out of foreskin. It should not be copied here.
Here is a medical research supplies company website that sells Neonatal Foreskin Epidermal Keratinocytes at 250 dollars a pop.https://ccr.coriell.org/ViewCart.aspx Should we not mention these sales of circumcised foreskins on the page about circumcision as circumcision is their only source ? @Zad You may have skimmed past the long section 8 in maize devoted to uses of Maize. Ah-maizing !--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 04:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- LOL at the pun, cute! I apologize if I'm being unclear, but you are still not connecting to my points. 1) This article is about the circumcision procedure, the act of removing, and not the foreskin, that which is removed. Section 6.1 in maize describes the method of production of maize, but does not at all cover what is done with the maize once produced. 2) You also did not address the stark differences purposes. 3) Primary sources like the sales page you linked to are not what we need to create the kind of content you are describing. Please provide excellent-quality secondary sources. I looked for them myself and could not find them.
Zad68
05:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 06:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
2nd Paragraph?
"Circumcision does not appear to have a negative impact on sexual function"
This is a sick joke right?
Circumcision causes calcification and keratinization of the glans, desensitizing it by 70-90%. It also causes early impotence. Foreskin also adds extra stimulation to a woman's inner vaginal walls and lower part of the clitoris, increasing a woman's overall stimulation by over 200%. Removing it, reduces a woman's stimulation with her man by 67%.
This is the worst article on circumcision I have ever seen.
Who the hell is editing this crappy article? Apprently, nothing but insecure mutilated men. This is sad and pathetic.
75.1.54.56 (talk) 05:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Got some high-quality medical sources that meet the Wikipedia guidelines for your above claims? You will want to remove your personal attacks on editors, which are against the rules here.89.204.154.177 (talk) 10:42, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- @75.1.54.56 The way that the information about both desensitization and about effects on HIV transmission are presented at present in the article do seem skewed in favour of circumcision. However the way to address this is to locate good sources for the information that contradicts that view rather than characterize other editors. The article could also usefully mention Philo the jewish philosopher saying circumcision "signified figuratively the excision of all superfluous and excessive pleasure" and Maimonides arguing that "circumcision acts to repress sexual pleasure" . as referenced in the WP article on Bri Milah or circumcision within Judaism. These are early recognition of the reduction of pleasure caused by lopping off the business end of the rhythm stick. The ideas about circumcision being a symbolic castration of slaves or the Talmud professor Daniel Boyarin's suggestion that the act of bleeding represents a feminization of Jewish men are fascinating too. The marked difference between USA and other anglophone countries would bear further scrutiny -could it be down to Puritan origins, recent USA hygiene fetish or the large number of Jewish doctors in USA ? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Tumadoireacht, first, thank you for pointing out to the IP that personal attacks are not allowed on Wikipedia, and I agree that excellent sourcing should be found for all article content. However, I'm concerned about the approach to article development that you are expressing here. Starting off with a goal in mind ("Get the article to say something negative about sexual effects") and then looking for sourcing to get the article to say what you want it to say will not result in content in line with Wikipedia policy and guideline. Detailed content about what medieval religious philosophers thought belongs in the appropriate religion-based articles and not in this general survey article. As for the rest of your comments, see WP:NOTAFORUM.
Zad68
04:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Tumadoireacht, first, thank you for pointing out to the IP that personal attacks are not allowed on Wikipedia, and I agree that excellent sourcing should be found for all article content. However, I'm concerned about the approach to article development that you are expressing here. Starting off with a goal in mind ("Get the article to say something negative about sexual effects") and then looking for sourcing to get the article to say what you want it to say will not result in content in line with Wikipedia policy and guideline. Detailed content about what medieval religious philosophers thought belongs in the appropriate religion-based articles and not in this general survey article. As for the rest of your comments, see WP:NOTAFORUM.
- @75.1.54.56 The way that the information about both desensitization and about effects on HIV transmission are presented at present in the article do seem skewed in favour of circumcision. However the way to address this is to locate good sources for the information that contradicts that view rather than characterize other editors. The article could also usefully mention Philo the jewish philosopher saying circumcision "signified figuratively the excision of all superfluous and excessive pleasure" and Maimonides arguing that "circumcision acts to repress sexual pleasure" . as referenced in the WP article on Bri Milah or circumcision within Judaism. These are early recognition of the reduction of pleasure caused by lopping off the business end of the rhythm stick. The ideas about circumcision being a symbolic castration of slaves or the Talmud professor Daniel Boyarin's suggestion that the act of bleeding represents a feminization of Jewish men are fascinating too. The marked difference between USA and other anglophone countries would bear further scrutiny -could it be down to Puritan origins, recent USA hygiene fetish or the large number of Jewish doctors in USA ? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Got some high-quality medical sources that meet the Wikipedia guidelines for your above claims? You will want to remove your personal attacks on editors, which are against the rules here.89.204.154.177 (talk) 10:42, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
@Zad What an odd misinterpretation you use to characterize my suggesting seeking excellent sources as inappropriate and your using quotation marks for an invented quotation is a bit much now really. As the impetus to cut babies penises is largely religion driven the early sources of religious ideas that created and reinforced the idea are, I believe, central to this article. These philosophers and doctors quoted greatly predate the medieval. Pretending that circumcision is only a medical issue damages the article--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 04:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- The scope of this article is indeed circumcision as a medical procedure. Religious aspects are mentioned here briefly and the detail goes in the specialized subarticles or related articles, on Wikipedia this is called "Summary style," see WP:SUMMARY.
Zad68
05:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)- There is an article devoted entirely to the procedure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_surgical_procedure . This is not it.
This article here is the flagship of a fleet of about two dozen articles ( which really should be listed in a nice handy See Also section) and as well as describing the "procedure" also gives social, historical, societal, religious and other contexts for it. A good analogy is Addiction - now largely medicalized in "treatment" but the treatment modalities still often bear the traces of the "moral" ideas that historically gave rise to them. So the ideas about cleanliness and protection from disease effected by dircumcision while selling themselves as objective owe their origins to idea sets outside and predating medicine --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 06:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Realistic death risk
The one reference for circumcision-related death is 1:500,000 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-AAFP_2007-16. That is second-hand information from a very old source, which was not peer-reviewed, but just a 1953 letter to a journal editor: Speert, H. (1953). (Letter to editor) Obstetrics and Gynecology, 2, 104. The most recent estimate, and seemingly comprehensive, is: Bollinger, D. (2010). Lost boys: An estimate of US circumcision-related infant deaths. Thymos: Journal of Boyhood Studies, 4(1):78-90.. It says the rate is about 117 per year, or an incidence of 9.01 per 100,000. At one time, this article was cited. I think this rate should be used instead of the present one. Frank Koehler (talk) 23:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Although this site is apparently anti CC it includes what appears to be solid references to a peer reviewed journal supporting a rate of 9/100,000.http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html (THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90)
- Does the 1/500,000 figure derive from worlwide figures or from USA ? If either does it include those boys who have died from brain damage induced by herpes contracted during circumcision, or those conducted in unsanitary third world conditions ?
- Actually, it is must for New York city from an adhoc review for deaths during the surgery and not after, so is not a good representation of the truth.Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Frank, regarding the AAFP number, generally we leave it to the secondary sources to do the vetting of the data. But, looking at it, the "500,000" number appears to trace back to King 1982. From my searching I'm not finding a reliable source that makes a direct connection from King 1982 to Speert 1953. However, even if the number is coming from 1982, that's 30 years ago, and if it's from 1953, that's nearly 60 years ago.
- I just reread King, while it does not cite Speert, it is clear that is the source since is says, "During one period, 500,000 consecutive neonatal circumcisions in New York city without fatality." Speert reported that approximately 566,483 babies had been circumcised in New York between 1939 and 1951, with one death. So this is their source. But Speert, an op/ed only looked at fatalities DURING the operation. Mortality from circumcision comes later, typically after hospital release, which explains why AAFP/King/Speert have such low rates. Unless this is stated, it misleads readers.Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would certainly expect the death rate now to be much, much lower than it was 30 or 60 years ago.
- One would assume, but that's not the case. A paper presented at the 2011 American Academy of Pediatrics showed that "nationwide data from 2004-2009 have shown an unexplained 119% increase in the rate of revision circumcisions." Here is the press release: http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AAP/29075Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Also, by now I have probably reviewed a dozen excellent-quality WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary and tertiary sources covering circumcision complication rates, and none of them mentions a death rate. If the best-quality, most up-to-date sources don't mention a rate, this article should not either.
- Bollinger goes into this. Have you read it? It is very convincing. It states that circumcision is not listed as the cause of death; the COD is usually hypovolemic shock, exanguination, and infection. And also that circumcision-related deaths are not tracked very well. When they are, it is just for the same hospital stay as the birth, but death risk is postrelease, and therefore they don't show up when searching large databases, so the risk is hidden from view. Plus, doctors (and parents) are prone to hide such deaths since the surgery was optional and the child died unnecessarily. Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with you that we should probably remove the death rate sourced to AAFP 2007.
Regarding Bollinger 2008--that has come up twice in the past months, and the bottom line is that it is not a WP:MEDRS-compliant reliable source. To start with, "Thymos: Journal of Boyhood" is not even MEDLINE-indexed, which is a bare minimum requirement for such medical information regarding a surgical procedure's complication rate.
Given these two things, we should remove the death rate sentence altogether.
- If this article was ONLY about medical circumcisions performed in a hospital setting then I'd agree, but that's not the case. It talks about cultural, traditional, and religious circumcision; many that are not performed within a medical setting. Even so, hospital circumcisions are not performed in a sterile operating room (which is why MRSA is one cause of death for such infants). As such the article covers religious, psychological, sociological, and antropological aspects and Thymos is a peer-reviewed journal in the social sciences. Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- In sum, if I were a parent researching circumcision on the Internet for my newborn son this page would be at the top of the search results I'd want to know that death was a possibility and what that risk ratio might be. Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
In case anyone is wondering who this "Dan Bollinger" cited by Frank Koehler is, check out this page. Quote: "For most of my life I’ve been troubled by night terrors that I later became convinced were an early recollection of my circumcision at age three-days." With all due respect to Mr. Bollinger, whom I've never met, but the idea of citing this gentleman as a reliable source on medical issues (or, for that matter, any issue that lends itself to investigation by the scientific method) seems absurd to me on its face.82.113.121.238 (talk) 16:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't find that problematic. So he has a personal interest in the topic, I think it safe to say that most scientists do. His work should be judged on its scientific methodology, not the author's early recollections. You didn't say whether or not you had read the article, so I'm guessing you haven't. I found it online here: http://www.readperiodicals.com//201004/2026622071.htmlFrank Koehler (talk) 17:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
(I moved this into a new section. Frank Koehler (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC))
- Frank, I'm not exactly sure what you did to my post, but it confusingly broke up the integrity of what I wrote and what should have been attributed to me over my signature. I'd like to repeat and emphasize what Jayjg said, do not refactor others' talk page contributions like you did here. It would be within reason for me to revert how you edited up my post, see WP:TPG. I do not want to chase down responses across seven threads. Regarding the Bollinger article, see WP:MEDRS for the requirements for sourcing biomedical claims in any Wikipedia article. The complication rate of a surgical procedure is a biomedical claim. As the journal the article is published in isn't even MEDLINE indexed, it is of insufficient quality to use here.
Zad68
01:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)- Zad, My apologies. And, I found your post difficult to respond to since you combined multiple topics within the same paragraph, and some of Tumadoireacht's comments weren't about death risk, so, I chose to respond point-by-point. Frank Koehler (talk) 17:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- Frank, I'm not exactly sure what you did to my post, but it confusingly broke up the integrity of what I wrote and what should have been attributed to me over my signature. I'd like to repeat and emphasize what Jayjg said, do not refactor others' talk page contributions like you did here. It would be within reason for me to revert how you edited up my post, see WP:TPG. I do not want to chase down responses across seven threads. Regarding the Bollinger article, see WP:MEDRS for the requirements for sourcing biomedical claims in any Wikipedia article. The complication rate of a surgical procedure is a biomedical claim. As the journal the article is published in isn't even MEDLINE indexed, it is of insufficient quality to use here.
- Some solid academic negative articles here too http://www.circumstitions.com/References.html#Gairdner
- --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 23:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Frank, regarding the AAFP number, generally we leave it to the secondary sources to do the vetting of the data. But, looking at it, the "500,000" number appears to trace back to King 1982. From my searching I'm not finding a reliable source that makes a direct connection from King 1982 to Speert 1953. However, even if the number is coming from 1982, that's 30 years ago, and if it's from 1953, that's nearly 60 years ago. I would certainly expect the death rate now to be much, much lower than it was 30 or 60 years ago. Also, by now I have probably reviewed a dozen excellent-quality WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary and tertiary sources covering circumcision complication rates, and none of them mentions a death rate. If the best-quality, most up-to-date sources don't mention a rate, this article should not either. I agree with you that we should probably remove the death rate sourced to AAFP 2007.
Regarding Bollinger 2008--that has come up twice in the past months, and the bottom line is that it is not a WP:MEDRS-compliant reliable source. To start with, "Thymos: Journal of Boyhood" is not even MEDLINE-indexed, which is a bare minimum requirement for such medical information regarding a surgical procedure's complication rate.
Given these two things, we should remove the death rate sentence altogether.
Tumadoireacht--you will not find sourcing of sufficient quality for this article at "circumstitions.com". You really should read WP:MEDRS for information on how to identify quality medical sourcing.
Zad68
04:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Here are several decent articles from that site
M. Machmouchi, A. Alkhotani Is Neonatal Circumcision Judicious? Eur J Pediatr Surg 2007; 17: 266-269
Morris L. Sorrells, James L. Snyder, Mark D. Reiss, Christopher Eden, Marilyn F. Milos, Norma Wilcox, Robert S. Van Howe Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis BJU International 99 (4), 864-869 (British Journal of Urology International, Volume 99 Issue 4 Page 864 - April 2007)
J. S. Svoboda, and R. Darby A Rose by any other Name: Rethinking the Similarities and Differences between Male and Female Genital Cutting Medical Anthropology Quarterly, Volume 21, Number 3 (September 2007), pp. 301-323.
A. Way, V. Mishra, R. Hong, K. Johnson Is male circumcision protective of HIV infection? AIDS 2006 - XVI International AIDS Conference Abstract no. TUPE0401
The chief fault of this WP article is perhaps that in a good faith effort to maintain high standards of medical referencing it is neglecting, diminishing or excluding the behavioural, social, historical and religious aspects and influences and how these dictate the incidence of the choice to circumcise in different settings--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 05:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Tumadoireacht, if you're thinking any of those four articles would be useful to support biomedical claims in Wikipedia articles, you really need to read WP:MEDRS.
Zad68
05:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
The first two are recent peer reviewed medical journal articles -what's not to like ?. The latter two are included as illustration of the biopsychosocial aspect which I feel the article neglects fetishising instead the "medical" like the Orangutans in"Planet of the Apes" !--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 05:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- "What's not to like" is clearly laid out for you in WP:MEDRS. Tell you what, I'll stop the ping-pong here for now, the next step really should be for you to read WP:MEDRS.
Zad68
05:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC) - Tumadoireacht, when reading WP:MEDRS, I recommend you focus first on WP:MEDREV. Jayjg (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a pervasive presumption of a Western clinical practice model in considering circumcision here. A Xhosa or Aborigine or Mohel circumcision may have little in common with this. Circumcision belongs to a wider group than physicians--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 23:00, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Tumadoireacht, perhaps this is part of the issue you're having here. As has been explained to you before, the scope of this article is indeed circumcision as a medical procedure, and it is part of a group of articles connected in WP:SUMMARY style. This article is an overview article that focuses on the aspects of circumcision as a medical procedure. Other articles (should) provide in-depth coverage of the details about the various aspects of it, such as the surgical detail, prevalence, use in religious practices, etc. If you have any further questions along this line you should see WP:SUMMARY... in fact, the response to further misunderstandings along this line will be to refer you to WP:SUMMARY.
Zad68
01:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits
I'm trying to find a happy medium between the faction that wants to include everything, the faction that wants to include anything negative, the faction that thinks circumcision is great and the article should reflect that, the faction that thinks the article is great, thanks, and let's leave it as is, and some other faction. Note that I'm not assigning any editor to any of these factions, and I'd appreciate it if no one else did either.
There was a recent attempt by two editors (myself included) to add a "See Also" section. This was opposed and undone by two other editors. Discussion elsewhere pointed out that "See also: Avoid the See also section when possible; prefer wikilinks in the main article and navigation templates at the end." Thus the see also section has been removed" is apparently the recommendation at MEDMOS. I have attempted to introduce some of the appropriate links into the article without reverting to a "See Also." If you don't like the way I did it, that's fine, but don't remove the links. Fix the text. Let us all work together here.
Note that the references I used are all accepted elsewhere on Wikipedia to say the same thing they say here. --Nouniquenames 05:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- If you would supply diffs others might understand what specifically you're referring to. On what works on other articles, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The recommendation on See also is not only per WP:MEDMOS; it's Wiki-wide. I'm not sure which edits you're specifically referring to, but I did see you reverting to a preference of your interpretation of a primary source (the Bible) over secondary sources, which is a no go. By the way, you're also edit warring; once you've been reverted once, you should discuss. Instead, you reverted again, and then started this discussion. See WP:EDITWAR; WP:3RR is not a license to edit war. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- (e/c) Nouniquenames are you talking about the See also section, or the more recent edits that attempted to use a primary source to counter a secondary source, and use a religious primary text to support article content? If it's the latter, I explained in the edit summary and on your talk page that using primary sources in those ways isn't good. You reverted and said, "See Talk" but you don't seem to be addressing why you undid the revert of your edit that use the primary sources.
Zad68
05:30, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)My apologies.
- The article at Preputial mucosa covers the preputial epithelium ("The preputial mucosa of the penis is the epithelium of the inside of the prepuce, or foreskin").
- The source at Dorsal slit#Phimosis is used there used to support alternative method for treating phimosis, added here
- Holy Prepuce#History and rival claims's first source is the same reference I used, albeit I omitted the direct quote there. my edit, originally added there in 2009.
- I will self-revert my last edit. I would, however, like to see the material included within the article. --Nouniquenames 05:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Nounique... Regarding the two edits you made and mentioned you'd like to see in the article: Your first edit added a mention of the circumcision of Jesus. The good news is that this content is already in the article, with a wikilink just like you were looking for, but that content is in the History section, where it's more appropriate. The section you added it to covers current religious practices, but the circumcision of Jesus is a historical event. The second edit added information about a dorsal slit as a treatment option for phimosis. This content is absolutely appropriate at phimosis but is off-topic here. Per WP:MEDICAL and WP:MEDMOS we must not be appearing to be giving medical advice. We don't cover alternatives for each of the conditions mentioned, that would be going down the road of giving medical advice. We just state the facts relating to circumcision here.
Zad68
01:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Nounique... Regarding the two edits you made and mentioned you'd like to see in the article: Your first edit added a mention of the circumcision of Jesus. The good news is that this content is already in the article, with a wikilink just like you were looking for, but that content is in the History section, where it's more appropriate. The section you added it to covers current religious practices, but the circumcision of Jesus is a historical event. The second edit added information about a dorsal slit as a treatment option for phimosis. This content is absolutely appropriate at phimosis but is off-topic here. Per WP:MEDICAL and WP:MEDMOS we must not be appearing to be giving medical advice. We don't cover alternatives for each of the conditions mentioned, that would be going down the road of giving medical advice. We just state the facts relating to circumcision here.
Revision Deletion
This circumcision article by reason of its controversial subject matter has attracted 8 WP:REVDEL revision deletions within the last year. In this exercise an administrator removes a chunk of an article or talk page leaving no record and no trace. One such RD occurred today. Does anyone know if what was excised can be viewed anywhere else ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 06:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Your description of revdel isn't entirely correct (it's usually just removing an inappropriate edit summary), and I see no revdels here recently, so I don't know what you're referring to. Unless something is also oversighted, admins can see what was revdel'd. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Replied at Wikipedia talk:Revision deletion#I saw briefly a page listing Revision Deletions for a particular article talk page -how can I call this up again ? --Redrose64 (talk) 15:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for a complete and useful answer and being kind about my ignorance.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:34, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Ethical and legal issues /non physician circumcisions/ parallels with FGM ?
This section in the article makes no mention of the circumcisions conducted by people other than physicians. Is this a weakness ? Is there existing research giving the figures for non medical staff circumcisions worldwide. A thread running through much of the research already comfortably cited is that complication rates are higher when the circumcisions are conducted by nurses or particularly by lay people rather than doctors. This sentence "There are three parties involved in the decision to circumcise a minor: the minor as the patient, the parents (or other guardians), and the physician." presumes a model that may not apply in many cases.
Also consideration of the sharp contrast in attitude to male and female circumcision goes unconsidered in the article- Is this the section where it ought to be mentioned ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 22:49, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Where do you get the idea that "complication rates are higher when the circumcisions are conducted by nurses or particularly by lay people rather than doctors"?82.113.121.238 (talk) 23:38, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Reference 14 in article--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 01:03, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- As of a minute ago, reference 14 in the article was a paper by Weiss, Larke, Halperin, Schenker. There, I found this sentence: "Traditional circumcision as a rite of passage is associated with substantially greater risks, more severe complications than medical circumcision or traditional circumcision among neonates."
- Tuma, please be a lot more accurate when paraphrasing, or people will be highly suspicious of your claims as a matter of principle.--82.113.121.234 (talk) 12:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- As of a minute ago the article is still written by the same authors; here are some other other selective quotes "complications were most frequent when the procedure was performed by nurses rather than doctors or traditional circumcisers" "Three circumcisions had been performed by a traditional birth attendant, and all three had resultant complications" "Table Table55 summarizes the five studies of complications following circumcision by non-medically trained providers. In these studies, frequencies of adverse events are generally higher, and complications more serious, even including penile amputation" " Most (68%) had been circumcised by non-medical personnel, and 60% of participants reported post-circumcision complications" et cetera --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 13:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Tumadoireacht, as explained above, this is a summary-style article, see WP:SUMMARY. Zad68
01:09, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- If we fail to consider non clinical MC in proportion to its prominence then it is also a poor summary-style article -as I have already pointed out there is already a WP article devoted to MC procedure. This one is the overview article or it could be reposted as presently set out with a different title "Physician MC ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 01:37, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia policy, the relative emphasis we give to each aspect of a topic is roughly in line with the proportion of coverage found in reliable sources. If you do a search, for example, for "circumcision" on Google Scholar, you'll see the results overwhelmingly are discussion of circumcision as a medical procedure. I count the first page of 10 results doesn't mention anything other than circumcision as a medical procedure. The article at present is in very good balance with the proportions found in reliable sources.
Zad68
03:44, 25 December 2012 (UTC)- If the definition of reliable sources is strictly limited to medical journals and a large proportion of circumcisions are done by non medical people( charmingly referred to in the article above as "the informal medical sector") then the article may suffer by cutting itself off from or ignoring a large part of the actual practice and consequences of circumcision globally. Putting the physician centre stage may be inaccurate. For instance only 34% of the world population have internet access. How many boys of those circumcised have access to a competent surgeon working in sterile conditions to do the job ? If we give prominence to low complication stats from USA clinic conducted MC are we painting an inaccurate global picture ? The main article on Female Genital Mutilation readily quotes Amnesty International. This unpassed Amnesty resolution on genital cutting of both sexes here http://www.mgmbill.org/aiusa2005wrcmgmresolution.pdf is notable.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 13:51, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- This appears to be a proposal made by a regional group of the American chapter of AI in 2005, and which was not passed. I can't see the significance. Jayjg (talk) 16:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- If the definition of reliable sources is strictly limited to medical journals and a large proportion of circumcisions are done by non medical people( charmingly referred to in the article above as "the informal medical sector") then the article may suffer by cutting itself off from or ignoring a large part of the actual practice and consequences of circumcision globally. Putting the physician centre stage may be inaccurate. For instance only 34% of the world population have internet access. How many boys of those circumcised have access to a competent surgeon working in sterile conditions to do the job ? If we give prominence to low complication stats from USA clinic conducted MC are we painting an inaccurate global picture ? The main article on Female Genital Mutilation readily quotes Amnesty International. This unpassed Amnesty resolution on genital cutting of both sexes here http://www.mgmbill.org/aiusa2005wrcmgmresolution.pdf is notable.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 13:51, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia policy, the relative emphasis we give to each aspect of a topic is roughly in line with the proportion of coverage found in reliable sources. If you do a search, for example, for "circumcision" on Google Scholar, you'll see the results overwhelmingly are discussion of circumcision as a medical procedure. I count the first page of 10 results doesn't mention anything other than circumcision as a medical procedure. The article at present is in very good balance with the proportions found in reliable sources.
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