Talk:Tom Wills

Gundagai

Tom Wills was born near Gundagai. Check the NSW BDM online 'Historical Indexs'. There were two 'Toms' born to the same parents. The first one must have died and it was common practice to reuse the same name for the next son. Tom Wills' family say he was born near Gundagai. They published a book years ago that says that. Members of the Wills family still live in the area. Cootamundra Museum also verify that Tom Wills was born near Gundagai (and near Cootamundra). That Tom's parents lived in the Coota/Gundagai area in the 1835-9 era pre them moving to Ararat is recorded in one of the early newspapers in the Ferguson Collection online when a letter to the editor reported from Gundagai (then called 'Murrumbidgee'), that the Wills house was raided by bushrangers in about 1836 and these bushrangers told Tom's Mum that they knew her b-i-l was a judge (which he was). I have a copy of that newspaper extract somewhere so will put its date and URL here later when I find it. That extract firmly locates Tom's Mum at Gundagai and Tom could not have been born without her involvement - dont u think?

Also, Thos. Townsend, Assistant Surveyor in a letter to the Surveyor General of the Colony of NSW on 21 August, 1839; when reporting back from his task to map the route of the now Hume Highway, locates "Horatio Wills Station" as between Cootamundra and Gundagai.

NSW State Archives 39/42 in Cliff Butcher 2002 'Gundagai: A Track Winding Back' self published by Cliff Butcher. pp 76-77

Wagga library has a copy of that book. That book by Cliff Butcher must be reliable as he got an Order of Australia Medal for his efforts at recording local history though he was just an accountant. The Surveyor General of NSW and NSW State Archives are very reliable sources and have way more veracity than any Dictionary of Biography as they are core sources. You cannot get more reliable than core sources. If Geoffery Blainey wants to claim I was born in Brisbane should that be accepted by Wikipedia when I was not born in Bris.

Why does someone keep changing Tom Wills birthplace back to Parramatta? He was born near Gundagai/Cootamundra as others here have put and as the records show was where his family lived. His birth may have been registered at Parramatta Court House but that in no way indiactes he was born at Parramatta. I will put Toms birth rego number here later and if someone is near a larger birth registry than I have access to they may go have it checked.

Tom's birth rego number is: V1836258 47/1836.

That number will probably just show he was the 47th birth registered in that district for 1836 if checked. It in no way is about where he was actually born.

Wikiproject requests and responses

I've posted a pointer to your comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket. Tintin (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Some sources (eg. [1]) say Molonglo Plains, which I think is near Queanbeyan. A few others say Gundagai or Cootamundra on the other side of current day Canberra, and some say Parramatta. Geoffrey Blainey's A game of our own would be an excellent source but alas I don't have it. Here's a map. -- I@n ≡ talk 14:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is Geoffery Blainey's source excellent? If GB had believed incorrect stuff and rewritten that, its not an excellent source. Best to believe Toms family account of where Tom was born and other first hand records such as the Surveyor General letter. There are lots of coverups re anything to do with colonial Gundagai as it is a highly highly significant Aboriginal place that the colonials tried to hide the existence of as a part of dismantling Aboriginal culture as part of European invasion.

• I think in terms of reliable sources, we would have to take the Australian Dictionary of Biography as an authority:

What is the AustDicBio's reference for this Wills material? Is that reference reliable? Its pointless referencing unreliable sources that are then legitimzed because they have appeared in a supposedly legitimate source. Best to ask an Australian Uni with a strong Aust History Faculty as a refereee if sources such as NSW BDM and the Surveyor general are discounted as sources.

I would never reference the Australian Dictionary of Biography in any university level work as being reliable if its talking about colonial Australians unless I first triple checked all its sources thus went back to core sources which would delete AustDicBio as a reference.

adb entry. The MCG gives the same details - presumably the same source. His birth details should thus be "born on 19 December 1835 at Molonglo Plains, New South Wales"--A Y Arktos\^talk 22:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. -- I@n ≡ talk 01:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• I have a book on cricket which has significant biographies of significant figures in cricket which also cites Molonglo Plains as his birthplace. Capitalistroadster 03:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC) That book may have got its info from AustDicBio which isnt a core source.

Burra confusion?

The confusion may be because of the word 'Burra'. There is a 'Burra' at Molonglo. 'Burra' means kangaroo. So, where there were Aboriginal landscape and/or environmental features that indicated 'kangaroo' this would be 'Burra' or 'Burra Burra' meaning several kangaroos. 'Someone' may have read that Tom was born at Burra and thought "Oh, that is Burra near Canberra". Its a wonder people arent claiming that Tom was born at Harden/Murrum.burah (path of kangaroo), or at Burra in Sth Australia or Burra in WA, rather than Molonglo or Parramatta. Note on the map on this site, there is no Gundagai. Some think Gundagai does not exist so easy to say Burra near Canberra if telling a UK person where Tom Wills was born as most in UK would know where Canberra is. Canberra is the 'capital'. Gundagai is also the capital and they did intend at one point to place modern day Canberra at Gundagai or in the immediate Gundagai/Tumut area but decided that was being a bit too obvious. Easier, if a person lives in Sydney and doesn't undertsand BDM records and registration of births in Oz pre 1856, to say that Tom was born in Sydney.

The Australian Dictionary of Biography isnt a reliable source. NSW BDM is. The best source though is also the letter to the Surveyor General from the Ass Surveyor General, coupled with where Mrs Wills was at that time plus the BDM records plus the Wills Family own records and input.

Noting birthplaces such as Parramatta or Molonglo only indicates the registery where the birth was recorded (not actual birthplace) pre 1856. Post 1856, when formal records began to be kept, birth PLACE was generally noted as most registrations were church ones and each church had its own distinctive birth regi code that was assigned to the birth reg number. Pre 1856, there was a six month time allowed between birth and registration. Thus, Tom could have been born at Gundagai in for example May, and as long as the birth was registered by November (registered at Molonglo or Parramatta or somewhere) then the registration was accepted. Toms family say he was born near Gundagai. Mr Wills the judge was at Parramatta in that era. He was Toms uncle or great uncle.

Just where Molonglo really was is open to debate too. Just because these days its near Canberra does not mean it was near Canberra (not that the ACT existed then), in 1836, or that there were not multiple Molonglos. 'Murrumbidgee' is a generic term for river so really, there are "Murrumbidgees' all over. Also, to hide some Aboriginal culture, the colonials moved some features. Strzelecki's Mt Kosciuszko is a prime example of this. Its very clear when anyone reads where Strz went, that he went to near Gundagai yet later, to hide important Aboriginal places, they moved where he went to past Albury. This moving places is all to do with the massacres that happened, colonialism, etc. All that said, Molonglo may be where it is today, and the birth was registered there (though not meaning Tom was born there). Molonglo in the 1836 era did have a facility to register the birth. Gundagai did not as Gundagai in 1836 was not gazetted so offically was still Aboriginal land though occupied by 'squatters' or lot holders acting on behalf of other higher up Europeans, who by then had deleted a lot of the Aborginal people in the area.

Wills family again

Re the Wills family massacre in Qld, (the Wills left Gundagai in 1839 and were the first European settlers to Ararat naming Mt Ararat, then moved to Qld in about 1859), the Native Police in that area of Qld at the time of the Wills family massacre, were all from Gundagai/Murrumbidgee under the leadership of Frederick Walker a European who had links back to Gundagai and the trade happening at Gundagai for many years pre the Wills Massacre.

There is more to this than is that well known. Its about Aboriginal/European contact history so lots coverups.

Gundagai again

Tom Wills was born near what is now called 'Gundagai' no matter what others may want to claim about a highly significant Australian sporting person and this is recorded in the offical records of NSW such as NSW BDM and NSW State Archives.

Mine says "Molonglo, near Canberra" too. – AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 05:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Albino monkey I see u are at USyd. I am a grad from a couple of unis and currently at a G8 one. That Molonglo entry is about birth registration, not birth event. A car can be born in Adelaide but first registered in Sydney. That doesnt mean it was born in Sydney though. It seems someone wrote 'molongo' once and everyone else copied it. If writers copy what others put it saves them having to research stuff. I go back to primary sources rather than believing much at all I read in books especially a lot of sports books about past times. Those sorts of books are just about serving content up rather than being exercises in historical accuracy. Gundagai was 'discovered' by the Europeans from Molonglo. In reality it wasnt but that is what is claimed. 'Molongo' can refer to Gundagai because if anyone wanted to come to Gundagai in that era, they had to go see Mr Throsby et al and ask permission. Though this area had ordinary Europeans in it in the 1830s, it was under the control of 'Lords' and operated similiar to how feudal kingdoms did. The Europeans had been accessing Gundagai for many many years pre offical discovery by coming up the Murray and also in through the south coast. Blue gums. Kara. Gold. Copper.

We have reliable sources saying Molonglo. If an extract of his entry at the NSW Births Deaths and Marriages can be scanned and posted here, then that would be excellent and a worthy addition to the article as well. -- I@n ≡ talk 06:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom's birth rego number is: V1836258 47/1836.

I put Toms birth number above. Its from NSW BDM.

Its not that appropriate to put up peoples full birth record even if they are long deceased. I doubt if anyone but the Wills family could obtain a full extract and going on what was in the book they wrote about Tom noting his birth near Gundagai/Cootamundra, they may have done that. The online extract shows nil other than the births of the two Thomas Willis with accompanying reg numbers, and the parent's first name, second inital and surnames.

You are not listenting to what I am saying re pre 1856 births. The records of these births show where the birth was registered, not necessarily where the birth occurred. The birth may have been registered at Molonglo but that does not mean it happened there. In fact the birth happened near Gundagai. It was registered at Molonglo or at Parramatta though within 6 mths of the birth as required. Pre 1856, births were registered at court houses, (many people didnt register births at all though). Post 1856, the churches took over registration and the records of births show what church in what location registered the birth which gives some indication of birthplace. Even these locations may have been inexact though. Some familes got 6 kids at a time registered when the Minister did his 5 yearly rounds to the less settled regions. Remember, Australia in this era was a nation newly invaded and undergoing massive change, including expanding settlement by Europeans which meant those in outer areas of settlement had no churches, no court houses and in many cases, not even a pencil to record anything let alone a birth. My Mum b.1908, wrote on real slate as a school slate, with soapstone and they sewed some things with the barb out of a large aloe plant. That is just 100 years ago. Tom Wills was born 164 years ago, (just a few kilometres from that same aloe plant).

Response re Reliable sources and birth certificate ?

• I hear and sympathise with the editor posting about his family history. The issue would be is a birth certificate a more reliable source compared with the Australian Dictionary of Biography. Presumably the ADB researcher had access to the BDM as well as other sources. Wikipedia has only a few policies - No original research, [[|cite reliable sources, WP:Verifiability. Citing a reference such as the Australian Dictionary of Biography allows us to meet those policies. It is properly researched. It doesn't mean it is 100% accurate, but the refutation of that accuracy is difficult.

Question for the anon editor - do you have copy of the birth certificate? The number is only a reference. The certificate will contain some detail, perhaps including place of birth, midwife, older siblings (including deceased siblings), parents place of marriage (not always reliable I know from my own genealogical studies, ... If you have a copy would you be prepared please to transcribe it for us? If you don't have a copy of the certificate, then family oral history is not sufficient to refute the ADB.--A Y Arktos\^talk 08:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Recording history is a highly highly political activity. This means that often, what is recorded (even if from seemingly credible secondary sources), is totally incorrect or at best three steps away from reality and that is done deliberatly for various reasons. Anyone who has studied history knows this. Any book that contains historical information may be full of deliberate errors. I dont care for any book that does not note primary sources such as birth certificates and NSW Archives documents with accompanying archive file numbers. I accept the letter from an 1830s era paper I have that mentions Mrs Horatio Wills in it as being correct as that letter was written to lobby for a response in the Gundagai area to the bushrangers getting about, not for any political purpose re Mrs Horatio Will, (Toms Mum). I still havent looked for this letter to note its reference here but will.

No I dont have a copy of Tom Wills birth certificate. I am not a member of Toms family so would not seek that certificate. Toms family have posted online where he was born (near Gundagai). They also did that in the book they published about their famous family member. I think families know their family details better than others and can access their family records re birth etc to verify details but its pointless if others who are not family then come along and turn family facts into fiction either by accident, laziness or just by design. Its unusual that a book such as the Aust Dictionary of Biography would be accepted over a primary source such as letters to the Surveyor General by the Ass Surveyor General. When I studied Aust History three years ago it would have been the official NSW Records and books published by family who had access to full birth certificates that were used to verify details not books such as the Aust Dictionary of Biography which at best is a secondary source but really a third of fourth of fifth hand source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs)

It is true that the BDM index lists two Thomas Wills born to the same parents, one in 1835 and one in 1836. Certificates for these births can be obatined from the registry by anyone who is willing to pay, not just family. At the moment, all we have is that historians who have researched this have reached various conclusions, the most serious one appearing to be that he was born at a place called "Molonglo Plains". The certificates may suggest otherwise, but unless they make it very clear, using them would possibly be "original research". However, you did mention that the family had written a book about Tom Wills. If you gave some details of this book, it might be a decent source. JPD (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

A copy of this book is in the Gundagai Museum if anyone is going through Gundagai or would like to ring them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs) Tread a bit lightly as a local may spook if any query gets too close to other stuff re this area that is still being hidden. The book is/was there though. If anyone likes to search the online Riverina Regional Library catalogue there may be a copy of it lodged at the Cootamundra library. Coota Museum might also be able to assist.

Certificates can probably be accessed by anyone but protocol applies also. Why doesnt Wikipedia obtain a birth certificate for Thomas Wills and have a qualified historian decide where Tom was born. Most of Australia knows where Tom was really born. Its just a few aberrant sources want to continue on with the misinformation about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs)

But isn't it worth adding a mention in the article about this confusion ? Tintin (talk) 11:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's not obvious which place is right, then yes, of course it should be mentioned. JPD (talk) 11:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• • No, in my view it is not worth adding a mention in this article about the confusion at present. We have reliable sources which assert quite confidently when and where Wills was born. We have wikipedia editors giving their own view based on family history. Even if we got the certificates, they need more material to interpret and asure ourseleves that we are indeed talking the same child. I would be surprised if the ADB was wrong - the certificates have always been readily available, but it is not impossible. However, if the author of the Wills ADB entry didn't use the birth certificate, he would no doubt have used another reliable source. To mention the confusion, for example to reference the indexes and say there was more than one Thomas Wills born, is tantamount to original research. If somebody cites the certificate which says District of Molonglo = such and such a township which is closer to Gundagai than Queanbeyan, I would be happy to augment the facts put forward by the ADB as there is no conflict. If somebody comes up with a conflicting fact, I would have suspicions that the brith certificate referred to a different Wills - I would want to understand why the ADB entry was wrong before putting in different information from an uninterpreted source that requires other pieces of information to ensure it is correct. The reference to the location of Horatio Wills's station does not clarify where Thomas Wills was born to my mind. There is no doubt expresssed in reliable sources as to where Wills was born, what source would you cite that there is doubt? "Some people suggest that ..." breaches WP:NOR--A Y Arktos\^talk 11:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree concerning the location of the station, the usefulness of the certificates, and so on, but I@n does say above that "some sources" say Gundagai/Cootamundra, etc. I expect that the ADB is right, but if these "other sources" are similar in reliability, then they should also be cited. JPD (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I confess that I can now no longer recall where else I saw Gundagai mentioned other than the assertion of our IP friend. Perhaps I was just being sympathetic to his cause. A google search [2] returns nought. -- I@n ≡ talk 13:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Isnt memory a wonderful thing. Put in Wills family genealogy on world google. There will be a list of different Wills genealogies for Oz. One of them will contain Thomas'. That entry is lodged I think by a family member who is a solictor from Wollongong. I saw that entry maybe 5 years ago so dont quote me. I was just thinking, Frederick Walker, who had the Native Police in Qld in the area of the Wills family massacre and who was retained by the Wentworths the same as the Wills were, also went in search of Burke and Wills. That (Burke and Wills) Wills was connected to the Horatio Wills so all these people link up (Wills, Walker, Wentworths, Spencers), as they were all associated. They were also all at Gundagai pre the Qld jaunts. You see, if they could locate similar geological locations that were also very special to the Aboriginal people, they knew there was probably gold there. This was the 1830s though and gold had not been discovered in Oz then.

Here is the above URL: It notes Tom being born at Gundagai within it. http://tww.id.au/fam/liza-edward/pafg03.htm#91

More on no original research

In response to the suggestions above:

• Why doesnt Wikipedia obtain a birth certificate for Thomas Wills and have a qualified historian decide where Tom was born.
  • Please read WP:NOR which is policy and will I think answer your question.--A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Most of Australia knows where Tom was really born. Its just a few aberrant sources want to continue on with the misinformation about that.
  • Please cite a reliable source to support your view. --A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Its unusual that a book such as the Aust Dictionary of Biography would be accepted over a primary source such as letters to the Surveyor General by the Ass Surveyor General.
  • A letter four years after the birth that the family lived in place x does not mean the child was born there. If the letter had said I was present a the happy event of little Thomas's birth right here on this spot - that would be fine. Even if it said I visited this fine farm where all the children were born, or similar, ... What you have indicated does not say that - it says Horatio Wills lived here 4 years after the child in question was born - so what?--A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Horatio Wills also lived near Gundagai in 1836. That is recorded in a letter to the Sydney papers about the attack by bushrangers on the Wills home while Horatio was away. That letter mentions Mrs Horatio Wills being at that near to Gundagai home when the bushrangers visited.

• "Best to ask an Australian Uni with a strong Aust History Faculty as a refereee if sources such as NSW BDM and the Surveyor general are discounted as sources."
  • The Australian Dictionary of Biography is published as a collaboration between ANU and Melbourne Uni - would appear to meet your request I would have thought.--A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, granted re that comment re the AustDicBio. I dont use it enough to take much notice where its from and wouldnt ever use it as a source in anything I published. I did check their Tom Wills entry and where they say they got the info from. There is no primary source referenced in any of it it seems so they appear to be rehashing someone else's error re Toms entry. Maybe they are just reprinting old info that is now totally outdated now peopel can more easily access the primary sources at NSW State Archives. I wouldnt know why the ADB put that stuff in re Tom Wills. I doubt if Melb Uni know much re Gundagai though the archaeology department at ANU certainly do - but not the history faculty. But then again the ANU History Faculty do know a lot about Gundagai, but it was not released but seems to have been held back, (re Tindales letters to ANU History dept heads), so what else may have been withheld?

I will believe what Tom Wills family say about where he was born and that some family members still live in the Cootamundra area. The 'Harrison' who helped invent AFL was from the "... Harrison" in the Man from Snowy River poem and that family were from just to the north of Gundagai near Jugiong. These people selected runs as a family/old retainer thing but seemingly for the Wentworths/Spensers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs)

From JPD's post in the previous section, he seems to be aware of the two Tom Wills issue. So is there some literature already available on it ? Tintin (talk) 13:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Look up the historical indexs on NSW BDM. Do a search for Thomas Wills born between 1830 and 1840. Two Toms will come up with the same parents. It seems to indicate the first Tom died then a year after, the surviving Tom was born. This happened often in colonial oz when women were giving birth in the wilds of nowhere but infants also died post birth. Gundagai library may have a burial record for the first Tom Wills as some of the old single bush graves were recorded not long ago. The library assistant knows that area out where Tom Wills was born, well.

The following is the URL for Toms family. It notes Tom being born at Gundagai within it. http://tww.id.au/fam/liza-edward/pafg03.htm#91

Source for alternate birthplace and date

• Thank you to the editor using IP 203.54.9.214 on the night of 4 July for the alternate source [3] - before giving us the link, we could not see what you were referring to.
  • Please please try to format your additions to this discussion chronologically and please sign on talk pages using four tildes ~~~~? This will automatically produce your name or your IP address, and the time and date. Five tildes (~~~~~) will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding a signature or an IP address. Note an account means your username /log-in stays the same regardless of a changing IP address -it can be pseudonymous - ie doesn't reveal your identity.
• The author of the ADB entry was W. F. (Bill) Mandle, former Professor of History, University of Canberra, and regarded as founder of sports history in Australia. Among other publications, he wrote a study of cricket and Australian nationalism in the nineteenth century.[4]
• I think, given we actually have an on-line source, it would be acceptable to cite it as an alternative source of facts. The family history seems thorough, which implies careful research and access to original documents that have been interpreted as a group - I would be happy to accept it as a reliable source.--A Y Arktos\^talk 01:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)