Talk:The Fall (band): Difference between revisions

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Article title

If the band is named after the novel, shouldn't the novel be at The Fall and the band at The Fall (band)? Rick K 20:57, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

The Gaurdina had an article on the Fall/Mark E Smith at their website on Jan 15 which linked to The fall article on Wiki, hence I've reciprocated the link! [1]

quercus robur 15:02, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Fall (band) are much more popular than the book - I guess a large majority of people will be searching for the band The Fall rather than the book. So I propose we move The Fall to The Fall (Camus novel) (or similar) and The Fall (band) to The Fall – whichever came first is not relevant. SaltyWater 22:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This should be a disambiquation page because there is also a book by Garth Nix entiled the fall. Jamhaw 14:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)jamhaw[reply]

I suggest creating The Fall (disambiguation), and linking to that page from here. The Fall band are much more popular than either book. SaltyWater 15:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to do that, when I noticed Fall (disambiguation), which already links to this article, Camus and the Fall of Man. --ajn (talk) 15:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

mushrooms

I recently filmed Simon Reynolds talking at NYU about post-punk. He has a book on the subject in the works. He ascribed much of The Fall's creativity to the consumption of drugs - specifically methamphetamine, apparently easily available and popular at the time, and psilocybin mushrooms which, according to Mr. Reynolds, are abundant in Manchester's parks due to the preponderance of precipitation in the neighborhood..

joly

This is news to me, having lived in Manchester all my life. Yes, it rains a lot, but no more than say, anywhere that is on the wrong side of a mountain chain with the prevailing wind blowing that way. Yes, MES spends a lot of his time either drunk or on speed (allegedly), but to say that his creative talents are owed to this is very disingenuous. There were (and are) a lot of people from the same scene who imbibed of the same stuff, and their output was nothing like that of The Fall's. RobC

POV =

What's the NPOV problem on the page?

65.8.197.103 06:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Past members

Do we really need to list all of them? It makes the box oppressively long. Maybe one of these EasyTimeline dealies would be a better solution? Flower party■ 13:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As much as it seems to irk MES, the number of people who have passed (and, it seems, continue to pass) through The Fall is one of their most notable points and one which people are likely to come somewhere like this to research. I'm not sure a timeline could be done cleanly enough without it dominating the page. How about a seperate article? Members Of The Fall. Even as I type that, I'm not convinced by it tho'. Ac@osr 19:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a good idea. Would also allow more information on why they left, perhaps. If that happens though, would it be best to sort them alphabetically or chronologically? SaltyWater 21:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think a new page to work with would allow room for both formats. May I suggest List of musicians in The Fall? Malepheasant 23:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You may. SaltyWater 23:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I would suggest a chronological listing as most members have come in as someone's replacement; would make sense if we were going to have the timeline as well too. It would also allow for appropriate levels of detail to be added - played 6 gigs in 1998? 1 sentence. Craig Scanlon? Nice big paragraph. Ac@osr 17:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about Former members of The Fall? Or Mark E Smith's drunken onstage drummer sackings? --ajn (talk) 17:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of chaotic US tours by The Fall is looking like a runner....Ac@osr 18:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I notice someone had red-linked all the former members. A good time to start the catch-all page? Ac@osr 07:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Receiver

I've been plugging some of the gaps in the discography recently and have been pondering doing one article to cover all the controversial Receiver albums from the late 90's, rather than dealing with each CD release (and re-release) individually. Thoughts, objections, etc? Ac@osr 18:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think they should be done together, yes. Fiend with a Violin, Oswald Defence Lawyer, Sinister Waltz, Oxymoron and Cheetham Hill are the "proper" albums, and that material's been recycled on about a thousand compilations since. I'm not sure the original five are in print any more, but I think there's a case for considering them as original albums rather than compilations (they were demos, live and alternate takes, but all of it was previously unreleased). It's the point where the Fall "jumped the shark" as far as I'm concerned. --ajn (talk) 12:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you mean but I think they have to be considered alongside the compilations. Although the recordings were mostly unissued, the songs were all familiar from previous releases; there was only one "new" song across the whole bunch and that was a Mark-free zone. And a cover. They are all out of print although I think Sanctuary's box set of Cheetham Hill, Oxymoron and a live album is still around. Jumped The Shark? MES wrestles with that shark day in, day out. Has done for a looooooong time....Ac@osr 19:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You may find the page at The Fall's Track Record helpful here, although by no means are the respective histories of each song definitive due to the sketchy sleevenotes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Clayts (talk • contribs) 11:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

I've started Compilation albums by the Fall. At the moment it's just the Receiver stuff, but it could be expanded to include some of the good compilations (77-79, Hip Priest and Kamerads, the Beggars singles etc), as well as some of the later ones which are more interesting than the Receiver stuff but are still verging on "recycle and rip-off" (A World Bewitched, etc). --ajn (talk) 12:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like it. It's surely a better solution than having 30-odd separate pages that are never going to expand beyond a track list. Good work! I guess the live albums are the next problem... :) Flower party☀ 13:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've got every compilation listed on the official website on that page now. Needs tidying up, categorising, etc. What would be interesting is something relating to Smith's attitude to compilations. I seem to remember his being dead against backward-looking compilations at one time, feeling he had to justify Palace of Swords Reversed, and it's noticeable that after 1996 the number of compilations increased and the selections became very odd. As I said above, I think Smith's quality control just disappeared at that time, both in terms of the band's official records and his willingness to allow people to release any old tripe on compilations. --ajn (talk) 15:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great stuff, excellent catch-all. I think Live albums by the Fall should be next - we can copy the useful info from the existing articles - I'm certainly not doing the Live From The Vaults series in anything other than a block...Ac@osr 16:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just reading through this - the main reason why the selections on the group's compilations became a bit strange was that Smith only had the rights to certain eras of the group's work - during the Receiver years, he had everything thru to Perverted By Language and then nothing else until Light User Syndrome. Other eras had to be represented by the outtakes etc he had sold to Receiver. MES has said that he didn't oversee the Receiver comps and had nothing to do with the tracklistings, packaging and repackaging; I'll try and find it somewhere that's nice and linkable. Palace Of Swords Reversed is actually particularly interesting because it was Smith's own selection and on his own Cog Sinister imprint; it came at a time where that whole period was out of print - as a young Fall fan when it was originally issued (I was 14), it was nectar because what you could get at that time jumped from Dragnet to The Wonderful And Frightening....so between that and Hip Priest And Kamarads, you could get a decent picture of the era. Sorry, I'm rambling....Ac@osr 21:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just Deleted Franz off-topicness

"Musically, Franz Ferdinand have moved away from the Fall influence that can be heard very clearly on an early track like 'Shopping for Blood' (a B side to the 'Darts of Pleasure' single), being closer now to Gang of Four or Josef K."

ONE: This is about how FF dont sound like the Fall
TWO: 'Shopping for Blood' is a blatant rip off of Iggy Pop's 'Nightclubbing' and Grauzone's Ice 'Eisbaer'
It had to go.

@@ Line 55: / Line 55: @@
 :::Just reading through this - the main reason why the selections on the group's compilations became a bit strange was that Smith only had the rights to certain eras of the group's work - during the Receiver years, he had everything thru to Perverted By Language and then nothing else until Light User Syndrome. Other eras had to be represented by the outtakes etc he had sold to Receiver. MES has said that he didn't oversee the Receiver comps and had nothing to do with the tracklistings, packaging and repackaging; I'll try and find it somewhere that's nice and linkable. Palace Of Swords Reversed is actually particularly interesting because it was Smith's own selection and on his own Cog Sinister imprint; it came at a time where that whole period was out of print - as a young Fall fan when it was originally issued (I was 14), it was nectar because what you could get at that time jumped from Dragnet to The Wonderful And Frightening....so between that and Hip Priest And Kamarads, you could get a decent picture of the era. Sorry, I'm rambling....[[User:Ac@osr|Ac@osr]] 21:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
+== Just Deleted Franz off-topicness ==
+: "Musically, Franz Ferdinand have moved away from the Fall influence that can be heard very clearly on an early track like 'Shopping for Blood' (a B side to the 'Darts of Pleasure' single), being closer now to [[Gang of Four (band)|Gang of Four]] or [[Josef K (band)|Josef K]]."
+ONE: This is about how FF dont sound like the Fall</br>
+TWO: 'Shopping for Blood' is a blatant rip off of Iggy Pop's 'Nightclubbing' and Grauzone's Ice 'Eisbaer'</br>
+It had to go.