Talk:Shane Warne

I was wondering: does the old link in this article need to be deleted? --anton 11:21, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Nope. Gone! --dmmaus 21:32, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I added Warney's Test match statistics... i don't know how to get the numbers in the middle of the columns. help? --Albinomonkey 28 Sep 2004

can someone fix the picture? Xtra 00:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I fixed it, but it would be nice to know where you got it from... All images should be marked with a copyright tag to show their source and copyright status. You can't just upload pictures from copyrighted sources such as cricinfo... AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 01:02, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Someone who can remember the details should discuss Warne's attempts to quit smoking in the controversies section of this article. I'd do it, but I can't remember the details, other than that he had a sponsorship with a company that makes a patch (or some other anti-smoking product) and that he was busted smoking several times since. Also the altercation with the young NZ fan who took a picture of him smoking.

1st class century

someone should add something about his recent 1st class century

Muttiah Muralitharan

I think that there is perhaps some vandalism. The mentions of Muttiah Muralitharan are both inaccurate and out of context. Muralitharan is a off spin bowler and not a leg spinner, and isn't rated as highly as Warne.

and isn't rated as highly as Warne is also an attack on Muttiah Muralitharan. Please sign the comments. Vivek 00:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Picture copyrighted?

I strongly suspect that the picture is copyrighted, but I can't find it with a Google search, or on Cricinfo. I'm inclined to remove it from the infobox anyway. Thoughts? Stephen Turner 09:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeh I thought it was copyrighted too, I think there is a group (Wikipedia:Image sleuthing) that tries to find the source for unknown pictures... although the chance that this is public domain is very slim. Remove it for now and leave a note on the uploader's talk page asking them where they got it from... AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 10:03, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The user only contributed for one day. He also uploaded Image:Brian_lara.jpg which is also probably copyrighted, but never included it in an article. I've listed them both on Wikipedia:Copyright_problems#June_26. Stephen Turner 10:51 & 11:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Needs much more on career

There is plenty on Warne's scandals, but very little on his (superlative) career. Would anybody like to have a go at expanding it? Stephen Turner 09:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more - the article seems overly negative, and that image is hardly flattering. --Prof. Alex 15:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Great leg spin bowlers

I still don't think Warne is THE greatest. Maybe one of the greatest, possibly, but certainly not THE best. Clarrie Grimmett had a lower bowling average, as did Bill O'Reilly. SpawnOfEvil

Agree that it is a matter of opinion, and but in such cases we have to go with the majority and leave the description slightly vague ('is widely considered as'). Tintin 14:34, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I've changed "widely considered" to "considered by many" — is that less definitive? Stephen Turner 15:12, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

He is considered the greatest by many. This description is fine to avoid the inevitable POV snipes that occur everywhere on Wikipedia. Harro5 09:18, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Preposterous to compare O Reilly and Grimmett to Warne. Firstly, Reilly and Grimmett benefitted immensely from bowling on uncovered wickets. Secondly, there wasn't as much touring or cricket played in those days protecting them from injuries. [unsigned]

People keep changing "one of the greatest" to "the greatest", and others of us keep reverting it. I've rewritten this again, to "He is one of the greatest leg spin bowlers in history — many say the greatest." I think that's fairer and still NPOV. Hopefully it will also be more stable. Maybe. Stephen Turner 10:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Some user keeps visiting this site and fixing it up. Does he have a life outside of Wikipedia? He should stop being glued in front of a computer all the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.3.197.249 (talk • contribs)

One could more relevantly ask the same question about the person who keeps vandalising it... -dmmaus 04:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think there have been different vandals but one guy is obsessively on this page, literally checking every day...and not only correcting vandalism but people's viewpoints. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.3.197.249 (talk • contribs)

I expect you're talking about me, although I'm not the only one who keeps an eye on it. Yes, I check it most days — if you log in, you get a "watchlist" which makes it very quick and easy to check your favourite articles.

As for your main point about "correcting people's viewpoints" — you say it as if it's a bad thing, but that's exactly what I'm trying to do! One of the most fundamental policies of Wikipedia is neutral point of view — that an article should record facts without bias. For what it's worth, I personally think that Warne is the greatest leg spin bowler of all time, but others disagree, so it's biased to claim that he is the greatest or even that he is "generally regarded" as being the greatest (which is just another way to make the claim while avoiding saying it directly — see avoid weasel terms for more on that).

PS Please sign your comments on talk pages by putting ~~~~ at the end of them. Thank you.

Stephen Turner 15:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, the current version seems to contradict "avoid weasel terms" - and that is a style guide. Perhaps it's better to rewrite it? After all, Wisden made him one of the Five Cricketers of the Century, and we could say: "In 2000, he was selected by a panel of cricket experts as one of the five Wisden Cricketers of the Century, the only specialist bowler among the five." Then, for some balance, we could rephrase the next sentence to "Since 2004, he has held the record for the most wickets taken by any bowler in Test cricket, but they have come at a bowling average higher than that of other prominent leg-spin bowlers such as Clarrie Grimmett and Bill O'Reilly." Or, alternatively, that Bradman selected O'Reilly over Warne in his greatest XI. Sam Vimes 15:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the current version is slightly weasely, but the previous version (without the final clause) seemed to be understated, and got constantly edited. I like the current version because it says to me that some people regard him as the greatest but some don't.

I'm not fixed on the current formulation, but I would prefer to avoid getting into a discussion about whether he's really the greatest or not in the introductory paragraph. We used to have a version which tried to do that, but people kept adding their favourite leg spinners to the list. It might be appropriate in a later section.

Stephen Turner 15:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but Benaud has a higher average than Warne, so we could rightfully revert as it's not fact. ;) Here's a source to someone who actually says he's the best, though: [1] Maybe we could work that in, something like: "many agree with Australian TV commentator Richie Benaud, who has stated that Warne is "the best leg-spinner the world has ever seen"? Sam Vimes 15:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Can't we leave it at the current version that he is one of the greatest - which is simple and indisputable - instead of making it complicated and perhaps a bit messy ? IMO, even the 'many consider him the greatest' is unnecessary. Tintin 15:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we tried that, and people will just add that he is the greatest Sam Vimes 16:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

the point still stands, no need to spend an excessive amount of time policing Wikipedia sites in your awake hours. Get out there and play some cricket or learn guitar or something. 203.3.197.249 01:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

<removed comment>

Join the club. I'm Norwegian myself. :) I agree that you're non-biased, but still, to say that it's "absurd" to claim that Warne is not the best spin bowler ever is stretching it. There is this bloke called Muttiah Muralitharan, not to mention Jim Laker or Clarrie Grimmett. Best leg-spinner? Possibly. But not everyone agrees to that, which is why wikipedia can't state that he is - unlike Sir Donald Bradman, who is "universally regarded as the greatest batsman of all time". Wikipedia isn't about what is, it's about what people think. Sam Vimes 15:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Though in Murali's case, it may be more accurate to call him a spinner than a spin bowler :-) Tintin

Record against India

I'd attempted to add something about this earlier, but that was removed. (Having just re-read my original contribution, it reads a bit biased, admittedly.) Maybe someone else can do this.

While there is a huge section (bigger than "career") on "controversies," there is very little about his failures on the field. For instance, the Indian team is widely regarded as one of the best players of spin in the world. And his lack of success against India (especially in India where wickets tend to suit spinners) has been a major criticism of his bowling - something that has not been said of Muralitharan. (You could look up the statistics by using the "advanced search" feature of www.cricinfo.com - a site I, unfortunately, have no access to.)

In particular, the 1998 tour of India by Australia (the first of Warne's career) was widely anticipated at the time as a showdown between the greatest spinner of our times against the best players of spin in the world. The Warne versus Sachin Tendulkar battle in particular had many fans salivating. But Warne was taken apart by the Indians - Siddhu and Tendulkar, particularly. In fact, after the series he made some comment about having nightmares of Tendulkar belting him over his head for 6. In the 2001 tour, too, he did not have a great impact. This time, Warne singled out VVS Laxman for special mention.

Maybe some of you could add in more statistics maybe, and find some space for this in the article. It belongs there!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.80.59.3 (talk • contribs)

Maybe I was too hasty in removing your contribution — I apologise. The statistics partially bear you out, but only partially.

It's true that India is Warne's worst country. His overall bowling average is 24.91, but in India it's only 43.11. It has got better each time he's gone there. In 1998 it was 54.00, in 2001 it was 50.50, but in 2004 it was 30.07 (although this was still the worst of the main Australian bowlers). Interestingly, his second-worst country is the West Indies (average 39.64), so should we deduce that the West Indians have got his measure too?

You mention the comparison with Murali, but in fact he's had the same problems. His average is 22.23, but in India it's 48.73 (his second-worst country after Australia). It could just be that India are hard to beat at home.

Thank you for bringing this up again. I'll certainly add a sentence about it, although I don't personally feel it deserves a whole paragraph.

Stephen Turner 10:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

You were right in removing my original contribution. It didn't exactly sound neutral. But I still think that there should be more on his performances in India - especially the 1998 tour, as it was kind of a watershed in the way he was perceived by many; fans and journalists alike (especially in India). He came here with such a huge reputation and was expected to blow the Indians away on the dusty, turning tracks here, on which spinners generally thrive.

Regarding Murali, well, I made my comment based on how the Indians generally don't play him with a great degree of confidence, unlike when they face Warne. But then again, statistics don't lie. I just wish I could access Cricinfo here and look at the statistics myself, before posting comments like that one about Murali.

A bit surprised to read that bit about the West Indians. Of course, they've been traditionally very good players of spin. But then again, "traditionally" they've been a lot of things of which they are only a pale shadow now. Maybe you could also take a look at his economy rate and compare them for the 2 countries? That would also be a useful pointer.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.80.59.3 (talk • contribs)

When I said it didn't deserve a whole paragraph, I meant "within the context of the current article". What it really needs is a longer article, where things like this can be properly analysed without making the whole article biased in one direction or another. Then it would certainly deserve a paragraph.

Warne in India: average 43.11 runs/wicket, economy 3.19 runs/over, strike rate 81.0 balls/wicket. Warne in West Indies: average 39.64, economy 3.03, strike rate 78.2. So pretty similar. The West Indies figures are mainly due to a terrible series in 1999 in which he only took two wickets in three Tests. (Was something going on in his personal life at that time?) However, he has a good record against the West Indies at home (average 25.83 as of today) but a poor one against India even at home (average 62.55, albeit in only 5 Tests).

PS To sign your comments, use ~~~~.

Stephen Turner 12:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Bowling type

Isn't it better to leave the bowling type description as (right arm) Leg spin? It's not normal to describe other types of bowling by naming individual delivery types. "Leg spin" includes Shane's leg breaks, flippers and everything else, and he hasn't got much of a googly anyway. JPD 15:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• Cricinfo has it as leg-break googly so I guess there is no harm in having it that way. For most ex-players we have blindly copied the bowling style from CI/CA. So assuming that they are consistent about describing the leg spinners as leg-break/googly bowlers, this should also be fine. Tintin 15:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

300th wicket

Where does this idea come from that Kallis was Warne's 300th Test wicket? Cricinfo StatsGuru (choose List of Wickets) makes it clear it was Richardson, and yet various editors have changed it to Kallis. Stephen Turner (Talk) 12:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• Actually, I have now found this in several places, including the BBC. See this Google search. I'm confused. How can there be any disagreement about this? Stephen Turner (Talk) 12:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• The CI list of wickets does not take into account the FoW. Kallis batted at No.3 but was dismissed after Richardson. Tintin 12:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• Oh, damn. So I'm completely wrong. Sorry... This means I'll have to check all the others too. Stephen Turner (Talk) 12:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• OK, I've cleared up my mess now (and corrected one error that pre-dates me). Sorry again, everyone. Stephen Turner (Talk) 12:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• 'twas definitely Kallis, a beautiful top-spinner - remember it like it was yesterday :-) AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 13:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• Do you remember the dismissal of Brian McMillan ? Warne bowled five huge legbreaks. When the last ball pitched on the leg stump, McM moved across covering off and middle. The ball went straight and hit the top of the leg stump ! I was late for work that day because Warne was bowling so well. Tintin 14:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• Ah, the memories :-) Reminds me of one against Alec Stewart - four short, wide leg breaks, the final two of which were easily cut for four. Next ball, a flipper, pitched exactly in the same spot as the previous balls and as he went back to cut it went straight through him. Meanwhile, I found a big poster naming all of his 600 wickets and can confirm the info on the page is correct. Alec Stewart doesn't mind being a milestone! (150,250,400) AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 00:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

• It was actually a wrong'un around the wicket to dismiss Kallis. Get your facts straight.

• Nope, top-spinner. Thanks for the input though. AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 06:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Wickets in one year

Warne set a new record in Dec 2005 for the most number of Test wickets taken in a calendar year. Suggest add this to intro para. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.148.253 (talk • contribs)

Thanks. I already added this on 17 December (it's in the Career section). Now that the year is over, I've put the precise number. Stephen Turner (Talk) 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Cronje and Malik

The user who keeps removing the references to Hansie Cronje and Salim Malik from the article appears to be in South Africa, so probably objects to the reference to Cronje. Stephen Turner (Talk) 19:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes I am South African. My apologies for not discussing sooner, but I am new to Wikipedia and still figuring things out. I don't see much point in trying to soften what Shane Warne did by comparing him to someone who did something worse. If people want to know about Hansie Cronje's life and crimes, they are fairly well documented on the Hansie Cronje page - the Shane Warne page has nothing to do with Hansie Cronje. BoltonD BoltonD 08:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree that the reference to Malik and Cronje is a bit gratuitous, and would be better removed. -dmmaus 08:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I agree. In the context of that period of cricket history, I definitely think it's worth emphasising that Warne did not fix matches. I wouldn't mind saying "other players" instead of "Cronje and Malik", but I don't see why we should be coy about it either — and on balance I think a link to those players is useful to the reader. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a link to the players is definitely useful to the reader and Yes, it is worth emphasising that Warne did not fix matches - but the reference to the other players is still not relevant. BoltonD 12:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

In response to Stephen: The way I see it, Wikipedia should present the facts, not opinions. Stating that Warne took some banned drugs and was banned for a year is a fact. Saying that he's not as bad some other guys who fixed matches is an opinion. I'd say state the facts and let the reader judge which cricketer did the worse thing. In my view, the current wording violates WP:NPOV. I'm not strongly against it though, and would not be particularly bothered if it's left as is - just stating my opinion and reasoning. -dmmaus 23:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I think Dmmaus has summed it up perfectly. In my oppinion Hansie Cronje definitely did something far worse - but thats my oppinion. If you go to the Hansie Cronje page, as silly as it sounds, there is no point stating " Hansie Cronje was convicted of bribery and corruption which is far worse than what Shane Warne did". On another point, is it really necessary to have information in the article which is really not related to his life eg: Horny Warney and the Whites wrote a song called Horny Warney? What use is that info? Perhaps in a tabloid its useful but not a free encyclopedia. Thank you to both dmmaus and Stephen for your comments which have helped me to learn more about Wikipedia. BoltonD 07:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, the article doesn't suggest that he's not as bad as some other guys, but that the offence he admitted to, that is, giving info on weather and pitch conditions is trivial compared with fixing matches, which is a clear fact, and possibly relevant. Having said that, the article does to me feel like it is too accepting of Warne's explanations of the controversies. JPD (talk) 10:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Good point JPD. I guess I am just nitpicking which is unnecessary considering that the overall article is really good. Guess I am just going to slowly back out of this one. But just to be difficult, I still question the necessity of the info on Horny Warney and the Whites :) BoltonD 16:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Warney the Comedian

Recently Warney came to my school. He is a cracker. He showed us his Bill Lawry and Tong Greig impersonations. He also told us that Brian Lara and Sachin Tandulkar are the best batter he's bowled to and that the best bowler he's played with or against are Glenn McGrth and Curtly Ambrose.

Chelsea FC

Warne is named on the Chelsea FC website as a fan of the team [2] I spent a while looking through the article but I can't find a good place to put it in as it isn't significant enough to be in the introduction and it doesn't belong in any of the other sections. Any ideas? Or is it not significant enough to be added at all? Crito2161 16:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No real image of Shane Warne?

Hi, I am curious as to why this article has a crude artistical sketch of Shane Warne and not an actual image of him? I posted the same query on Steve Waugh's talk page (his picture is incidentally even more comical). This seems to be a trend in cricket player articles... Rdysn5 01:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)