Talk:Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses

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June 2006 July 2006

New Layout

I have made the changes. If everyone likes the table in principle, I will add this table to the main article, further adjstments and fine tuning can then be made from there. One area that will need work is references. If I do not get any objections I will add to article shortly. Lucy 23:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

For complete discussion: See Archive 2: July 2006

New Editor

I am endeavoring to comply with the many Wikipedia requirements for participation, and appreciate your patience as I learn them. CobaltBlueTony: I saw your HTML comment asking editors to make sure header text is elaborated in the body, and was about to add such comments to the body in compliance with your request, but had not yet done so. I will in the future make modifications to the body first before modifying the summary paragraphs above. Thank you for the pointers.

Also, with regard the NPOV requirement, I suggest that one cannot expect NPOV from Witness proponents on a "controversies rega rding" page since (as proponents) they have a vested interest in downplaying any controversy. Therefore it seems one-sided when it is suggested that former Witnesses should be disqualified for bias. In a spirit of reasonableness, I request such "cause" for disqualification be set aside, while all focus upon NPOV and self-regulation.

It is difficult to find a spirit of cooperation and avoid editing wars where my comments are repeatedly deleted without comment or with one-sided comments. Yet the goal of a rounded article which presents all pertinent information still seems worthwhile, and I look forward to working with you to achieve that. Thank you for your efforts.

Best wishes, AndrewXJW 14:00, 24 July, 2006

This suggestion is not in keeping with Wikipedia's "assume good faith" policy. Witness editors could conversely claim that all ex-Witnesses and those who actively oppose Witnesses could be disqualified from editing all other articles related to Witnesses, as they have a (perceived or stated) vested interest in downplaying any positive portrayal of the group with which they may have serious objections. Careful reading of the talk pages and archived talk pages of the various articles reveals that Witness editors have strived and progressed in this are to be NPOV, allowing -- for academic purposes -- that which they would never openly debate in social circles.

Editing from all sides is part of Wikipedia's mission, to present as many valid and relevant sides to topics as is reasonable on a scholarly level, not overemphasizing any one point beyond its academic value. Therefore, it is necessary that all viewpoint-holders be given fair access so as to discourage "ownership" of articles by any one side. This page could contain every objection some blogger might post about Witnesses if strict academic standards were not held to. As it is, this article needs to have stronger (reputable) sourcing to substantiate the controversies as presented. By doing this, contributors to this particluar article bolster their position that such concerns exist outside their own conventional sphere of influence, and are thus notable enough to be included. - CobaltBlueTony 19:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear CobaltBlueTony: You said "Witness editors could conversely claim..." They already did. That's what I was responding to. You have supported my statement that "it seems one-sided when it is suggested that former Witnesses should be disqualified for bias" as was suggested about me. Based on your response, it becomes clear that you do not support such conclusions. Thank you for this clarification. I'm glad the Witness proponents participating here are "making progress" toward NPOV as you say. I will endeavor to do the same. I agree that it is undesirable for 'this page to contain every objection some blogger might post'. Accordingly, my intention is to help represent only the primary concerns most widely expressed by Witness opponents (based on broad experience with them). Such primary concerns were notably absent before I began participating; rather focus was upon issues that are relevant only to Witness proponents.

They are labelling as "highly controversial" the subtopics that most universally matter to Witness opponents. Please point me to the guidelines I should read on how to respond to this situation so that I may help Wikipedia "to present as many valid and relevant sides to topics as is reasonable" as you say. Thank you. AndrewXJW 21:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, The minority of complaints about JW's are what you have placed at the top of the page. Most criticism of JW's comes from doctrinal, blood and patriotism issues. Also, your presntation leads the reader to assume these cultlike and/or mind control criticisms are actual fact. While certain 'researchers' and their proponents feel they are facts, this does not automatically qualify them as facts.

It is in the interest of NPOV to present JW justifications for these beliefs and actions and JW responses to the criticisms in a scholarly fashion. The criticism article is not a free for all JW bash where JW editors should just bow out.

You made extensive changes to the article w/o discussion, and you should expect your additions to be edited 'mercilessly' as WP cautions. I have issues with your table but will leave it and try to edit though I am going to move it to a more appropriate location.

Lastly, Please start new discussions at the bottom of the page as is the generally accepted form on WP. George 22:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If there is a consensus to put this information on a new page elsewhere, with a link to that page from here, then I would be happy to comply with that idea. Is there such a consensus?

You are quite mistaken regarding "the minority of complaints about JW's". What you have listed as the source of "most criticism" ("doctrinal, blood and patriotism") is basically a quote from Watchtower literature, where the Watchtower Society is framing the words of third parties. Third parties should speak for themselves. I am an ideal representative of such third parties, having worked with many recovering Witnesses and bewildered friends/relatives of Witnesses and therefore having observed their chief complaints firsthand.

On a page titled "Controversies regarding Jehovah's Witnesses" it should not be any surprise to find highly controversial information, therefore deleting it for it's controversial nature is improper. Your desire for this information (regarding family destruction and employing cult tactics) to be untrue in order to support your pet religious views does not make it untrue any more than my unsubstantiated observation makes it true. I agree that more citations are needed. As indicated, I will provide further cites.

I have added the most relevant information for such a page which the previous version glaringly omitted, not wrecklessly engaged in a free for all.

I apologize if I put the material in the wrong location on the page, this is no doubt due to my inexperience, and am happy to make corrections to that effect. Please elaborate "new discussions at the bottom of the page as is generally accepted". I would be happy to comply with this custom, but am not clear what you mean. Thank you for the clarification. Best wishes, AndrewXJW 22:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a very simple and clear article on Talk Page Guidelines that you might find helpful. With regards where to post comments this is covered under the heading "General Standards". Basically if you are starting a new line of discussion, you need to go to the bottom of the page and put in a new heading and post under it. If you are continuing a discussion, you need to post under that heading but still at the bottom of that discussion. Ok so that may have been more confusing than helpful but take the time to have a look at the article. It gives a far better outline than I did! Lucy 23:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Family Integrity and Freedom of Mind

Firstly, thank you for including this information. It does fill a void in the article to date and it must have taken you quite some time to research and assemble the required information. There are a few requirements to meet after which the information cannot be debated or removed.

1. In the opening it states that the assertion comes from critics but does not name any particular party. It also states that this is the most primary objection. This cannot remain as is without substantiation. See Wikipedia Policies Weasel Words and Original Research.
2. I had a (brief) look at the references you have used for the table. They seem to be relating to group dynamics and mind control as a whole and not directly related to Jehovah's Witnesses. In order to keep this section you would have to find some credible, published sources that link this research to Jehovah's Witnesses. The research on group dynamics is published and verifiable but the link to the Witnesses needs to be established.
3. There are several instances where blanket statements about the policies of Jehovah's Witnesses have been made (for example is that Witnesses are encouraged to modify relationships with non-witness relatives and the whole section of "How Witnesses Practice it"). I understand that having been in the religion, these are just pure facts but for the sake of the article even these have to be established with references from Witness literature such as the Watchtower.

These may not be the only areas, but they are what I noticed. Other editors will help to further improve the section for the benefit of the article. I hope all of this discussion and that above has not been overwhelming. This article is... well... controversial so when you make additions to it you need to be prepared to defend them and be reasonable about accepting the modifications of other editors otherwise (right or wrong) the additions have a tendency to disappear. Lucy 23:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the critique, Lucy. I will work to meet these requirements promptly. Best wishes, AndrewXJW 23:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Resources Critical

I would like to request that a neutral party consider the following links to replace some of the less significant links in the "Resources Critical" section. I understand there has been some consensus discussion on these links in the past, however, the links below, particularly BeyondJW and Grossoehme, are more substantial and important from critical view than most of the existing "Resources Critical". The links to volunteers who answer questions seems reasonable because similar resources are available in the "Resources For" section. Thank you. Best wishes,AndrewXJW 02:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• AllExperts.com Critics of Jehovah's Witnesses: Volunteers who answer questions about Jehovah's Witnesses free of charge based on research and personal experience in order to assist those who have been impacted by Jehovah's Witnesses.
• Beyond Jehovah's Witnesses A well-documented site which criticizes Jehovah's Witnesses while placing emphasis on accuracy without animosity.
• David Grossoehme on Lifton

Ithink you already know I thnk these are redundant and unnecessary. George 02:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Perhaps others would comment? AndrewXJW 20:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I withdraw my request to consider AllExperts.com, as some may interpret this to represent a blog, which is contrary to guidelines. However, I believe the other two are much more substantial and important references to fill missing gaps of information in the "Resources Critical" section than the other external links currently found there. I invite collaboration on this issue. Thank you. AndrewXJW 20:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Current edit conflict

We should all read: Wikipedia:Words to avoid It also looks like we may be heading for RFC George 02:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Disputed Content

Below is the content which has been deleted from the main page, placed here instead to facilitate collaboration among those who feel it is a necessary contribution to the page. I have changed all references from "Freedom of Mind" to either "free choice" or "cult mind control" as suggested. AndrewXJW 20:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Family Integrity & Cult Mind Control

Critics of Jehovah's Witnesses (e.g., Randall Watters, Timothy Campbell, David Grosshoeme, Kaynor Weishaupt, Jan Groenveld, etc.) object to Witness policy and behavior where, in their view, the integrity of family relationships and the capacity of members to exercise free choice is impacted.

Family Integrity

Critics point to three Witness policies which they claim have a negative impact on family ties and stability: (1) Overt shunning, (2) Social seperatism, and (3) Prohibition of traditional family celebrations. Critics further suggest that it is a common shared goal of all cult organizations to undermine family stability because doing so makes individuals easier to control, and that Witness policies are consistent with cult organizations in this respect.

Shunning When a Witness chooses to end their membership (see section "Treatment of members who disassociate"), even family members are often shunned by relatives who remain Witnesses.

Social seperatism Witnesses practice complete social isolation from their communities to the extent possible, always preferring to socialize with other Witnesses. This is meant to protect purity of character based on their interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:33 (NWT, "bad associations spoil useful habits"). There is no exception to this general rule with regard to non-Witness relatives; therefore, when one member of a family becomes a Witness and the other does not, the Witness social seperatism policy makes it likely that the family ties between such persons will deteriorate.

Traditional family celebrations Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from celebrating birthdays and holidays. Critics assert this causes family ties between Witnesses and their non-Witness relatives to deteriorate because in many families, birthdays and holidays are their only traditional opportunities to get together.

Cult Mind Control

Critics contend that certain Witness practices negatively impact members' capacity to exercise free choice:

Tactic	Researcher	In general context	In Witness context	Comment from BenC7
Love Bombing	Margaret Singer	A deliberate show of affection or friendship by an individual or a group of people toward another individual for the purpose of influencing that person	Extensive one-on-one personal attention in the form of home bible studies and special attention to new visitors at their meetings to purposefully create an impression on that person.	I'm not sure that this is a significant source of cult/mind control behaviour. I go to church, and I also think it is important to make sure that people feel welcome in church, especially if they look awkward etc (mentioned in footnote 3).
Milieu Control	Robert J. Lifton	Control over information, including what is read, expressed, and even dwelt upon, by means of manipulating access and environment, in order to assert control over minds	The Watchtower discourages Witnesses from reading material that does not favor Witness doctrine, and especially from communicating with former members. (See sections "Treatment of Members Who Dissociate" and "Internet Use")	This is important and strikes more at the heart of the issue. It should definitely be kept.
Doctrine Over Person	Robert J. Lifton	The subordination of human experience to claims of doctrine, of experience itself to a highly abstract interpretation of experience, resulting in a "logic" so compelling that it simply replaces the realities of individual experience.	(As described)	This isn't intended to be rude, but I read "blah blah blah blah blah[6]". The paragraph is very wordy. The info in the footnote seems to make the idea a bit clearer. Perhaps something like "JWs are discouraged from, and even called foolish for (using reference on left), having their own opinion on doctrinal matters. They are encouraged to have only theology that is in accord with the WTBS".
Loading the Language	Robert J. Lifton	The use of thought-terminating cliches to dismiss disapproved lines of thought, where far-reaching and complex human problems are compressed into brief, reductive sound bytes which are framed as complete answers.	(As described)	This is OK, but it needs better explanation. I also think it needs to be more specific to what JWs actually do, rather than cults in general.
Group Dynamics	John D. Goldhammer	Social pressure used by groups to obtain compliance from individuals within the group	During question and answer sessions, critics claim that participants whose expressions do not reflect pre-existing compliance with group dogma are intentionally embarrassed by the facilitator by turning the attention of the group upon the individual questioner so as to induce capitulation.	The case could be a bit stronger, as this type of behaviour can occur in many contexts. If Q&A facilitators were told to use such a technique, that would be a different story.
Cognitive Dissonance	Leon Festinger	People whose behavior, thoughts, and emotions are not in harmony with one another will change their thoughts and feelings to bring them into harmony with their behavior.	For example, by requiring all members to engage in door-to-door preaching, members come to believe what they are saying if no other reason that they are telling it to others. For example, by requiring members to shun persons disapproved by the organization, members come to believe that shunning is proper ('it must be proper because I am doing it').	Not sure about this either. I think they do these things because they think that these behaviours are right, rather than vice versa.

Free for All - Have your say

The word cult is loaded language. It can mean different things to different people and even the article related to cults cannot agree on a single definition. As such, it does not add to the article. I personally think it would be best left out and simply refer to Mind Control or control tactics since these adequately describe the intended meaning alone. Without hurting anyone I would like to give an example. The word nigger originally meant "black" with no negative connontations. As such there is no reason not to include it as a descriptive word on an article related to African Americans right?... wrong. Because of the common use of the word to degrade people over the years it is inappropriate. The word cult has been used in a similar way and may not be an appropriate descriptive word due to common misconception. I think some of the sections may draw unneccessary conclusions. For example, the introductory paragraph to "Family Integrity" could read something like Critics point to several areas of concern within the policies of Jehovah's Witnesses which impact family relationships. These include overt shunning, social seperatism and prohibition of traditional family celebrations. and then move into the three areas under the stated headings. This includes the relevant information allowing the reader to decide the validity of the stated concerns. Lucy 23:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add:

• 1. The word claim as I have discovered is not encouraged as per the link I provided earlier. We do need to be very careful of our wording. Other loaded words are floating around this proposed section, and I am just as guilty as anyone.
• 2. This entire section especially if it includes the box gives undue weight to a particular subject. A paragraph or two with references should be sufficient. The box is over the top...way over the top.

George 02:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I know it's frustrating having your work deleted, and yes, I have been a dick about it. I am sorry. Here's why it's been deleted. Not one of the references you provide specifically mentions Jehovah's Witnesses, as such, it is original research. Not only is it original research, but it is also undue weight given to an extreme minority. The Lindsay Jones Encyclopaedia of Religion (pg. 1034, heading: Brainwashing) notes: "..social science research has not supported the overwhelming psychotechnology theories, and the judicial system and professional social science associations have likewise declined to grant brainwashing explanations scientific standing." Those associations that refuse to accept the brainwashing hogwash as valid include the American Psychological Association and the American Sociological Association. The Lindsay Jones article also mentions (pg. 1033) the total dismantling of Margeret Singers' theories and court testimony by forensic psychologist Dick Anthony.

Lifton studied 25 westerners and 15 Chinese prisoners who were subjected to "thought reform" programs. From this Lifton developed the eight themes of ideological totalism (Milieu Control, Loading the Language, etc..) In this study all 40 individuals signed confessions that either publically condemned the United States, or had the prisoner confess germ warfare. However, once released, only 2 upheld their confessions and Lifton found totalistic predispositions in both cases. Not only is this research NOT applied to any religion, Lifton himself notes such coercion ONLY INFLUENCES SHORT-TERM BEHAVIOR.

To summarize: 1 - Undue weight - not only do you have to make the case for brainwashing on the viewpoint of the extreme minority; 2 - you have to find some nutter that applies such hogwash to Jehovah's Witnesses specifically, otherwise it is original research. Duffer 03:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that the information in the first section (on the family) could be integrated into the section on "Treatment of members who disassociate", if that section does not cover it adequately.

I think that the things in the second section (the table) could be reduced to paragraph form, and should be included if appropriate references can be found (preferably not websites, if possible). I don't think you would have to look very far to find something that says JWs are a cult or exhibit cult-like behaviours, but then I don't have a library on the subject at my fingertips.

I don't think there should be any objection to the use of the word "cult", if those who have been critical of JWs deliberately use the word. There is little point in removing the pointy end of the accusations and dulling it down to "mind control techniques" or similar. "Cult" means a number of things, not just mind control. If you look at the article on cults, the first two sentences of the lead seem to define it quite adequately. BenC7 07:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I've also added some comments to the table above. BenC7 12:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

All this brainwashing stuff is ridiculous. As BenC7 stated, all these supposed instances of "evil scary, BAD BAD BAD" JW's "mind controlling" people are basically just what people involved in any religious group, or even club or secret society, do. Why don't we see allegations of "mind control" on the Catholic wiki sites? Or those on the Lions Club, or the Masons? So if I'm kind to someone who asks to study the Bible with me, I'm an evil manipulator. Or if I choose not to associate with people who do nothing but spout hate about my way of life and beliefs, I'm a victim of "brainwashing." Or if someone attempts to turn negative peer-pressure around to positive peer pressure, they're involved in complex and manipulative brainwashing tactics. Good grief. I've heard of ridiculous academic circular logic, but this is ridiculouser. :) Disgruntled former JW's: get off your pity potty. Grow up and accept resposibility for your own actions, you big babies!! - 24....

Anyone with serious comments to make? BenC7 01:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

My comment (while somewhat tongue in cheek, admittedly) is just as serious as any of the other blather in this article... And has more merit! 142.176.149.50 19:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC) 24

I think that the best way to tackle the second section would be to have a few paragraphs rather than the table. This section could be renamed "Control Tactics". I see the most important information to be kept as being

• The control of information within the organization. Perhaps the section on Internet could be merged in here instead of having a section on its own which would no longer be necessary.
• The fact that members are discouraged from forming their own opinions on material and are told to "wait on Jehovah" if ever they find a discrepency in the information received.
• Social control. This could outline how relationships outside of the group are strongly discouraged and disapproved of. This links in with the issue of disfellowshipping and how it is used by some in a punitive manner. Members who wish to leave the organization can only do so by giving up all whom they know and love.

The paragraphs could describe the situation with Jehovah's Witnesses and then state that critics have likened that situation to (insert tactic) and add a footnote that includes the researcher and where to go for further information on that theory. This way the the focus on Jehovah's Witnesses and not the research into cult mind control tactics themselves. I have tried to incorporate the comments above into this suggestion. What say you? Lucy 03:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

RE: Edits made by anon me on July 27

To Duffer? (As copied on his page)

RE: Revert of controversies page: Reversion without discussion as usual... Welcome to Wikipedia. You reverted my mods to the "Controversies..." page without any explanation. My mods were not "NPOV" imho - how on earth is anything truly "non-point of view"?? That's impossible. Every human writing represents the point of view of someone, and so does this controversies article. My edits were more concise by far, and gave a better overview of the issues here.

I'll replace tem to be deleted by you later I suppose... Modified intro as follows: how is this "POV" then? As opposed to the previous, which intimates JW's are a cult when they are a recognized religion, and is basically one great run-on sentence... And has various grammatical and spelling errors to boot... Good grief.

Proposed mods as follows:

There is much controversy with regard to the beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that involvement in human political organizations is wrong, and so maintain strict political neutrality, refusing military service and involvement in patriotic activities. Because of this, governments have viewed them and their activities with suspicion.

Because Jehovah's Witnesses promote belief in a Creator (see intelligent design) they have been ridiculed by the scientific community.

The main doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses, while being based on their interpretation of the Bible, are very different from the beliefs of mainstream Christendom. This, and their outright rejection of ecumenism or interfaith, has caused friction, criticism, and sometimes outright hostility and persecution from religious leaders.

Jehovah's Witnesses also reject blood transfusions due to the Bible's indication that blood should be viewed as sacred. This has caused much criticism and controversy, with some medical practitioners aggressively condemning the Witnesses as religious fanatics and others accepting their beliefs and providing non-blood alternative therapy.

Some individuals have also claimed that Jehovah's Witnesses are a destructive cult and employ mind control tactics on their members. Such claims are generally considered inflammatory, and are largely without substantiation.

The media has been observed to dramatize and emphasize issues with regard to Jehovah's Witnesses, presumably attempting to capitalize commercially on the controversy surrounding this religious group.

I am not really sure that the introduction needs to be expanded to such a degree. The article is long enough as it is and each of the points in the introduction are expanded upon in the article if any reader is unsure about the context. Having said that your additions do contribute depth to the introduction. I would suggest the following:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that involvement in politics is unbiblical, and so maintain strict political neutrality, refusing military service and involvement in patriotic activities such as saluting the flag. Because of this, governments have viewed them and their activities with suspicion. Due to a belief in creationism or intelligent design Jehovah's Witnesses have met with controversy from the scientific community. The main doctrines and biblical interpretations of Jehovah's Witnesses differ with the beliefs of mainstream Christians. This, and their outright rejection of ecumenism or interfaith, has caused friction and criticism from other religious groups.

Specific areas that form major points of contention include their translation and interpretation of the Bible; their policies on blood transfusions; their attitude towards members of other religions and the treatment of members who dissociate; and their policies which have been said to deteriorate family ties and limit freedom of choice. Lucy 00:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I left a note on the talk page of the IP address that you used to make those edits user talk: 24.224.182.82. user:Cobaltbluetony tells me I was wrong to revert, but I just don't see how those edits are acceptable. It's presumptive, assertive, and draws conclusions. I know an intro is supposed to represent the contents of the article, but this intro just sounds too biased. Also, the intro was not the only thing reverted, the other edits were distinctly NPOV. Duffer 00:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

For once I agree with Duffer. If he hadn't reverted the changes, I would have done so. They were not NPOV (neutral point of view), which I think is what Duffer meant to say in his edit summary. If you had looked at the discussion above, as well as taken the template at the top of the article into consideration, you would see that the cult/mind control issue is under discussion and revision, and it is being edited here before going into the article. These things are not bigoted or hate-mongering. The article is here to present the controversy, not to put forward an opinion on it.

You say "reversion without discussion as usual". Well, did you discuss any of the changes you made before making them? Don't be so quick to accuse others, especially when you do the very thing yourself. BenC7 01:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Making additions and modifications to Wikipedia is supposed to be the point, right? Or is deleting said additions (without any summary discussion) the point? 142.176.149.50 19:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)24

Someone could say that BenC7 had a criminal record. Would he want that to be put into a news article, to be seen and read by anyone, without substantiation? Would he be concerned that people might believe it, although it is not true but purely conjecture? Would he accept the excuse that well, it was just an NPOV article? Lots of legal cases have been fought and lost by those claiming JWs are a "destructive cult". Such claims cannot be substatiated and yes, they are usually put forward by hate-mongers. Any claims with regard to mind control (the paragraph even has a link to another article on mind control, for Pete's sake!) and cultism on the top of an article about JW's obviously infers that JW's are mind controllers and cultists, unless there are clarifying statements accompanying such. I'm not comfortable with any article that infers such negative concepts towards anyone, without clear substatiation. And yes, I am concerned that Wiki projects could be used to promote hate. Aren't you? ```` 24

You are correct, I meant: "the other edits were distinctly POV. Duffer 03:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I happen to have liked the simple summary sentences! The other now seems like pseudo-intelligent blarghety-blargh. The simple sentences were concise, clear, and most definitely placed the "claims" in the proper light, allowing the reader to make assumptions as to the accuracy or truth of the claims, as per NPOV. Are we afraid of big changes here? Os isn't one of Wikipedia's encouragements "be bold"? - CobaltBlueTony 14:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Tony, I liked Lucy's mods also; the original (and current) seems to be quite un-elegant and contains grammatical/spelling errors. Duffer asserts non-neutral but I disagree, I don't see why my entry would be considered non-neutral. Merely concise and clear. In any event, an article on controversy by definition must present two points of view, pro and con... Otherwise there would not be any controversy. The entire article, in its present form, merely presents the point of view of those (sometimes harshly) critical. 142.176.149.50 19:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)24

Unitarian bias

The current version of this section has sentences that read: "The New World Translation is said to be a literal translation, [25] as such, rendering the passage as "God", "Godlike", or "Divine" would not be adhering to the stated goal of literal translation. [26]"

This seems to me a bit unnecessary. The same argument could be used for every other English translation. The _______ Version (insert the name of any formal equivalence/literal translation) also claims to be a literal translation. They would have believed that translating it "the Word was a god" would not be in keeping with the goal of a literal translation. It is sufficient to say that the NWT stands by its rendering and believes that it most accurately represents the original language. It is moot to offer an argument as a defence that can be used for both sides. (By the way, the point is not to offer a defence at all; it is just to present the facts.) BenC7 01:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The point is to offer a defence against the assertions. I don't see the defence against this claim as moot, since the trinitarian side is not in question here. The sentence I proposed offers WHY the NWT translated as they did, and specifically exposes the irrationality of the claim to the discerning reader of the article. As a literal translation the NWT renders "a god" although the MEANING is: "Godlike / Divine", or as Dr. Wallace puts it: "“what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too." The charge against the NWT is twofold: 1 - The translation goes against the mainstream by offering a heretical translation (with the insinuation that the translation is not accurate). 2 - The accusation is presented under the heading: "Unitarian bias", as such it is inherently insinuated that the passage is inaccurately rendered to support a Unitarian Bias. Since it is the stated goal of the NWT to render literally, rendering the passage as most mainstream bibles (the Word was God) would go against not only literal translation, but proper conveyance of the original greek thought. A proper defence for the NWT is more than warranted here. It is not rendered to affirm a "unitarian bias", it is translated literally, accurately, and in line with modern TRINITARIAN scholars (Wallace, Moffat, Smith & Goodspeed, and many more), despite the article's claim: "A rendering that depicts Jesus as "a god" is considered by most Christians to be heretical." Duffer 03:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately I agree with both of you. George 03:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)