Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Josef Preiß (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions

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Josef Preiß

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An unremarkable Wehrmacht soldier; no significant RS coverage can be found. The article states that the subject has "200 confirmed kills" as a sniper, but searching for various combinations of "Josef Preiß", "Josef Preiss", sniper, Oberjäger, etc, did not produce a confirmation. I located an entry at feldgrau.com (non RS): Josef Preiss, but it's essentially empty.

The article was discussed at AfD in 2015, resulting in a keep decision. The discussion centered on whether the subject met WP:SOLDIER and did not produce new sources, and none were added to the article. The subject does not have a de.wiki article. He is mentioned in the 100. Jäger-Division (Wehrmacht), with one line: "Oberjäger Josef Preiss, Gruppenführer 15. Kp./JR 227, verliehen am 20. April 1945", but no citation is provided and his kills are not mentioned.

The topic of the notability of Knight's Cross winners has been extensively discussed here: Notability in Knight's Cross Holder Articles; the summary in this subsection (Part 3). There's currently no consensus whether a single award of the Knight's Cross meets WP:SOLDIER #1, given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000).

Available sources on KC winners were discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heinrich Debus (SS officer), with an insightful contribution from editor Assayer, who provided historiographic perspective on the sources (Thomas & Wegmann; Krätschmer; others) that were mentioned in related discussions. Per available information, such sources, even if available on the subject (which is not certain), are non-RS for the purpose of establishing notability. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Josef Preiß in German or Josef Preiss:

Oberjäger Josef Preiss, Gruppenführer 15. Kp./JR 227, verliehen am 20. April 1945. There are pictures with him, and information in German, if there are not in English it doens't mean that you will not find it in German. And watch your language such as "unremarkable soldier". Here from the start: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/100._J%C3%A4ger-Division_(Wehrmacht)

He was recipient of the Knight's Cross and met WP:SOLDIER, there is no need to delete it. That, added to the other mentions in directories of KC recipients is, in my view, sufficient for GNG. If there was a keep decision why do you insist?

———And leave us alone with your "given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000)". Are you historian to decide which one was awarded for valour and which was not, are you historian to decide which intricate detail or not should be kept (deleting referance from one soldiers life), are you really a historian who understand how the German system of awards worked? The Knight's Cross, which was the highest decoration for a German soldier during WWII, was awarded for extreme bravery "exceptional acts of gallantry which decisively affect combat actions" and was awarded to any rank in the German Army, and you had to been awarded first the Iron Cross 2nd Class and Iron Cross 1st Class which are awarded for combat valor. These were conferred progressively. These awards dates back to 1813. Unlike British system, it was bestowed across all ranks and grades. It could have been awarded for a senior commander for skilled leadership of his troop in battle, or to a humble private soldier for a single act of extreme gallantry. It could have been awarded for an ace pilot for shooting down enemy planes, to a tank ace for destroying enemy armored vehicles, or to a submarince ace for sinking enemy ships. There were over 18 millions germans who served in the German Army, plus hundreds of thousands of non-germans who served (mainly in the Waffen-SS) and were eligible for Knight's Cross. There were 7,282 awards of Knight's Cross and it's highest grades (the exact number is unknown as records for the last hectic months of war are incomplete), and although it might seems high to you, the Knight's Cross was a wide-ranging award (whether you like it or not). There was a rigorous process when awarding a Knight's Cross, it had to pass to many levels of scroutinity (the Divisional commander, the Korps commander, the Army Group and so on all the way to the Armed Force High Command), and was reviewed meticulous and had to be approved by Hitler himself. Like the British Victoria cross, it come with an accompanying citation and it appeard in different newspapers and others forms of propaganda, just like London Gazette. The recommendations papers, complete with added comments by various senior officers, can be found in the German Federal Archives, and I invite you to study them, because they will help alot to understand why they were awarded that medal. Lastly, Germany fought continuously from 1939 till was defeated in 1945, even so the Knight's Cross was clearly an extreme rare decoration, taking in considerations how many served in the German Army with its four branches: Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, Waffen-SS, the non-germans and allies who received it, and the various Knight's Cross grades awarded to the original recipients.———

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0A:C0BD:C900:F18F:5AA7:29EE:395E (talk) 11:35, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 19: / Line 19: @@
-———And leave us alone with your "given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000)". Are you historian to decide who was awarded for valour and who was not, are you historian to decide which intricate detail or not should be kept (deleting referance from one soldiers life), are you really a historian who understand how the German system of awards worked? The Knight's Cross, which was the highest decoration for a German soldier during WWII, was awarded for extreme bravery '''"exceptional acts of gallantry which decisively affect combat actions"''' and was awarded to any rank in the German Army, and you had to been awarded first the Iron Cross 2nd Class and Iron Cross 1st Class which are awarded for combat valor. These were conferred progressively. These awards dates back to 1813. Unlike British system, it was bestowed across all ranks and grades. It could have been awarded for a senior commander for skilled leadership of his troop in battle, or to a humble private soldier for a single act of extreme gallantry. It could have been awarded for an ace pilot for shooting down enemy planes, to a tank ace for destroying enemy armored vehicles, or to a submarince ace for sinking enemy ships.
+———And leave us alone with your "given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000)". Are you historian to decide which one was awarded for valour and which was not, are you historian to decide which intricate detail or not should be kept (deleting referance from one soldiers life), are you really a historian who understand how the German system of awards worked? The Knight's Cross, which was the highest decoration for a German soldier during WWII, was awarded for extreme bravery '''"exceptional acts of gallantry which decisively affect combat actions"''' and was awarded to any rank in the German Army, and you had to been awarded first the Iron Cross 2nd Class and Iron Cross 1st Class which are awarded for combat valor. These were conferred progressively. These awards dates back to 1813. Unlike British system, it was bestowed across all ranks and grades. It could have been awarded for a senior commander for skilled leadership of his troop in battle, or to a humble private soldier for a single act of extreme gallantry. It could have been awarded for an ace pilot for shooting down enemy planes, to a tank ace for destroying enemy armored vehicles, or to a submarince ace for sinking enemy ships.
 There were over 18 millions germans who served in the German Army, plus hundreds of thousands of non-germans who served (mainly in the Waffen-SS) and were eligible for Knight's Cross.
 There were 7,282 awards of Knight's Cross and it's highest grades (the exact number is unknown as records for the last hectic months of war are incomplete), and although it might seems high to you, the Knight's Cross was a wide-ranging award (whether you like it or not). There was a rigorous process when awarding a Knight's Cross, it had to pass to many levels of scroutinity (the Divisional commander, the Korps commander, the Army Group and so on all the way to the Armed Force High Command), and was reviewed meticulous and had to be approved by Hitler himself. Like the British Victoria cross, it come with an accompanying citation and it appeard in different newspapers and others forms of propaganda, just like London Gazette. The recommendations papers, complete with added comments by various senior officers, can be found in the German Federal Archives, and I invite you to study them, because they will help alot to understand why they were awarded that medal.