Talk:Organization XIII

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Just thought that it might look better to arrange the Talk archives in a box at right -- making them easier to find and review. --Stratadrake 20:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Ultimania translations!

So we can stop with the questions of whether an element or weapon is official, I, myself, will provide the characters from the Ultimania, the sounds for the katakana (using Wikipedia as the source), and the translations for the accursed kanji (using this). (Why the Japanese made their writing so inefficient, I'll never know.) Credit to nunuu for scanning the pages.

• I. Xemnas
  • Element: 無 mu (nothingness, none, ain't, nothing, nil, not)
  • Weapon: エアリアルブレード e a ri a ru ba rē do (aerialblade)
  • Nobody: ソーサラー sō sa rā (Sorcerer)
• II. Xigbar
  • Element: 空 kū or sora (empty, sky, void, vacant, vacuum) 間 kan or aida (interval, space)
  • Weapon: ガンアロー ga n a rō (gunarrow)
  • Nobody: スナイパー su na i pā (Sniper)
• III. Xaldin
  • Element: 風 fu or kaze (wind, air, style, manner)
  • Weapon: ランス ra n su (lance) (Keep in the mind the r and l confusion.)
  • Nobody: ドラグーン do ra gū n (Dragoon)
• IV. Vexen
  • Element: 氷 hyō or kōri (icicle, ice, hail, freeze, congeal)
  • Weapon: シールド shī ru do (shield)
  • Nobody: –
• V. Lexaeus
  • Element: 土 do or tsuchi (soil, earth, ground, Turkey)
  • Weapon: アックスソード a kku su sō do (axesword) (As of Chain of Memories the official translation is "tomahawk".)
  • Nobody: –
• VI. Zexion
  • Element: –
  • Weapon: –
  • Nobody: –
• VII. Saïx
  • Element: 月 getsu or tsuki (month, moon)
  • Weapon: クレイモア ku re i mo a (claymore)
  • Nobody: バーサーカー bā sā kā (Berserker)
• VIII. Axel
  • Element: 炎 honō or homura (flame, blaze)
  • Weapon: チャクラム cha ku ra mu (chakram)
  • Nobody: アサシン a sa shi n (Assassin)
• IX. Demyx
  • Element: 水 sui or mizu (water)
  • Weapon: シタール shi tā ru (sitar)
  • Nobody: ダンサー da n sā (Dancer)
• X. Luxord
  • Element: 時 ji or toki (time, hour)
  • Weapon: カード kā do (card)
  • Nobody: ギャンブラー gya n bu rā (Gambler)
• XI. Marluxia
  • Element: 花 ka or hana (flower)
  • Weapon: サイズ sa i zu (scythe)
  • Nobody: –
• XII. Larxene
  • Element: 雷 rai or kiminari (thunder, lightning, bolt)
  • Weapon: ナイフ na i fu (knife)
  • Nobody: –
• XIII. ? ? ? ? coughRoxascough
  • Element: 光 kō or hikari (ray, light)
  • Weapon: キーブレード kī bu rē do (Keyblade)
  • Nobody: サムライ sa mu ra i (Samurai)

*dies* ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 08:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Er, no, it's just Aerial Blades. It's the katakana エ e, not the kanji 工 kō. I know it's difficult to tell. urutapu 22:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

-_- ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 01:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I just made some corrections, don't pay any mind...—ウルタプ 21:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a Wikipedia login at the moment, but I just have two cents to add to this really quickly... If you have the names spelled out as they are in the Japanese version, wouldn't make sense to include their Japanese titles alongside their English ones? Some people prefer to use the Japanese ones and used Wikipedia as a resource for that until it was changed to suit the English version. - Anonymous

Eh, that just feels really fancrufty to me, but I wouldn't revert if someone did so. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 14:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey um, I'm sorry, but Larxene uses Kunais. Same difference, I know, but I just wanna get that name right. Oh, and Zexion controls the Creeper Nobodies and has a dagger. If I get these wrong don't flame me plz. -Khfreak

Uh, no. Larxene uses knives. The English word "knife" (katakana naifu) is explicitly used. And Zexion has no confirmed weapon or personal Nobody.—ウルタプ 21:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody Gummi Ships

Why was the list of gummi ships removed?

Roxas and his memory

It says that Roxas lost his memory because of Sora's being a heartless for too short of time, this is an error. Diz mentions at some point (I don't remember, but it was in the three hour introduction.), that he didn't remember a thing because Sora lost his memories also. This also explains why he remembers things as Sora remembers them. Just thought I would give my two cents. :D

Secret Ansem Reports. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 02:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

because of his significent role would it be a good idea to give Roxas his own article.

To put it bluntly, NO. And don't try to create one, either. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 06:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Couple Things...

Where is it mentioned that Nobodies are born in Twilight Town? As I recall, Ansem's Secret Reports aimed said they 'slipped into darkness' or some such thing. Also, it was mentioned by Ansem that the stongest Nobodies, the Organization members, were created because they gave their hearts up willingly.

Finally... I would add that calling 'moon' an element is a little odd. Saying he derives power from the moon both sounds better and remains entirely accurate. Matter of phraseology, not speculation. Similar bit with Marluxia and flowers. Seriously, say it to yourself, the 'element of flower.' Jachra 05:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Secret Ansem Report 7. Should be something like "When beings without hearts, "Heartless", are born, the remaining soul and body are born in [Twilight Town] as a different existence." I don't see where it states that humanoid Nobodies are created by the willful giving-up of hearts. Yen Sid clearly states the strong heart thing. As for elements, I'm not sure why "element of water" or "element of wind" is any more ridiculous. They're all minor after-effects of more fundamental forces, and to state wind as a "element" is compeltely silly using current science's way of thinking. The only reason it seems more acceptable is the fact that it's been considered a element since Greek times and seems more fundamental than flower. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 07:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thank you, I looked it up myself afterwards, they are indeed born in Twilight Town's world. As for the willing giving up bit, it was a mistaken combination of things I read in 5 and 10. Apparently, giving up your heart willingly only creates a Heartless with self-will, mentioned in section 10, I mis-remembered this as Nobody. As for elements...the elements of Water and Wind comes directly from Greek mythology, and, from a primitive perspective, makes a modicrum of sense. To a society without a background in science like ours, it can very well seem that all things are composed of (thus the word 'element,' by which they mean the elementary composition of existence) wind, earth, fire, and water. To this I add that the Chinese arrived at the same erroneous conclusion seperately from the Greeks (possibly including Wood, which may indeed give you your justification, but I have no evidence they believed this was an element.) Are you trying to suggest that the moon and flowers are elementary compositions in Kingdom Hearts? We grew up with the notion of Earth Water Fire Air in video games; silly as it is, it has a strong history behind it in both mythology and video games. Jachra 23:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Course, I see that it will go on regardless of what I have to say...but, then, anime has always been full of oddities like that. A few more won't be noticed. Jachra 07:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I beleive the report says "this world" and not Twilight Town specifically. He could be just refering to the Realm of Light. He oftens refers to it as one world. --The Crowing 01:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Then why not say "this realm"? Ansem the Wise later states that Roxas was born in Twilight Town, further evidence for "thisworld" meaning Twilight Town. Twilight Town stays. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 01:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"I am but a servant to the world." I doubt he was talking about Twilight Town specifically then. And why even mention Roxas being born in Twilight Town if all of them were born there?--The Crowing 19:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. Maybe because Roxas and Naminé were the only two humanoid Nobodies he was able to do significant research on?—urutapu 22:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"and her body which should have disappeared remained in the world of light." This signifies that the body that becomes a Nobody leaves the realm of light. So most Nobodies would not be born in Twilight Town.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.249.189.6 (talk • contribs)

...I'm pretty sure Twilight Town ISN'T part of the realm of light...—ウルタプ 20:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Twilight Town is between light and darkness. Not between the two realms. It's similar to Traverse Town; the dark corridor is very unstable, often opening up. Which would be a good reason why Roxas ended up there after his birth was interuppted.--The Crowing 22:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that it technically means that nobodies are born in worlds that lie between light and dark. Twilight Town being one such world many nobodies, including Roxas, were born here.

Then the Twilight Town line should be removed, not all Nobodies are born there.

Still seems odd to me, that people in a world where many Nobodies are born react to them with surprise and fear.--The Crowing 23:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

To be quite blunt, you opinion or observations aren't worth a damn. Ansem states "this world", having mentioned Twilght Town before. We're sticking to what the game clearly states. End of story. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 10:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

He calls the realm of light in general "this world" all the fucking time. Want me to find some exaples? "-the infamous "Keyblade" said to bring both chaos and prosperity to the world" I doubt he litterally means Radiant Garden. "I uncovered a "corridor of darkness" that connects the realm of nothing ness to the outside world" "Indeed, this world is still in danger." Not refering to a specific world in this.

And, when describing Nobodies; "When a Heartless is born, these entities disappear from the realm of light, to be reborn as entirely new beings in a completly different realm."

It's an innaccurate line; not all of them are born in Twilight Town. --The Crowing 20:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Then where else are they born? -- SFH 23:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Twilight Town is not the only world between the light and the dark. And the way Ansem comments on how Roxas was born in Twilight Town makes it seems as though not all of them were. If all Nobodies were born in Twilight Town, then why bother mentioning that it was where Roxas was born? --4.249.147.43 21:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

• That still doesn't answer my question. -- SFH 22:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know specifically. Traverse Town, Castle Oblivion, edges of realm of darkness?--4.249.150.248 23:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• So you know they exist, you just don't know where…That just opens a number of new questions.-- SFH 01:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

They do not all appear in Twilight Town, I believe. They appear in some world in the realm between dark and light. Twilight Town just happens to be one of them, where Roxas happened to be. It doesn't mean they all appear there.--69.111.121.190 06:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Roxas & Sora

There is no proof that Roxas did merge with Sora at the end of the introduction, the last time he's on screen is when he's looking at Sora's pod in the simulation. When he battles the organization members they refer to roxas as seperate but connected to Sora. "HE used to look at me the exact same way"- Xigbar. Roxas is mentioned as seperate until he fights Sora on The World That Never Was. During the fight he says "Tell me why he picked you". You not us. Roxas is still seperate during the fight clip as well. If you watch it closley time freezes for Donald, goofy and the nobodies before Roxas appears. The reason they say that they didnt see Roxas was because Sora disappeared before he appeared. Summation: Roxas is seperate until he loses to Sora in battle. -- Paul@wiki june 30 00:05

No, he does. That's the whole point of what DiZ and Riku were trying to do. They were trying to get Sora and Roxas to merge so Sora could wake up, and that's what he did. And where do you expect Roxas went? Did he just fall into a plot hole until the end of the game? The Magnificent, Fantastic, Splendiferous Gegiford 15:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, just wow. Did you miss all the clear indications that the two were merged? Sora sheds a tear saying good bye to Roxas' friends even though he only knew them for the most of five minutes. Saïx goes "BTW axel wants to turn ya into a <3less!!!" Hell, you completely ignore Axel's part in this game. ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 01:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow yourself, did you somehow ignore that Axel has two scenes in the game where he and Sora are in the same room. Sora crying could just as easily have been because Hayner & co reminded him of himself, riku and kairi.If you don't agree with that then it could have been because Sora and Roxas are connected and he cried because he instinctivley knew Roxas cared for them, just like he just knew when he saw the photo tha.t his name was Roxas Going back to Axel he wanted to turn Sora into a heartless TO PREVENT Sora and Roxas merging. For the plot hole comment considering how many unanswered questions crop up in the kingdom hearts series particularly in II it's easily within the realm of probability. I refer you to exactly why Kairi has a keyblade? Next, during the fight he says "Tell me why he picked you". Unless roxas went on a seperate trip after the intro ended there is no candidate to be "him". It couldnt be Diz he would have picked Sora because of his well known dislike for nobodies and he knew Roxas wouldnt fight the organization for him.Its not Xemnas because he knew Sora would oppose him and organization 13. Since all candidates in all 3 games have been ruled out that leaves only an unknown third party. Since this party isn't revealed in the game it must have been somebody roxas met or heard of after he left the simulated Twilight Town. After the first round of the last battle is over then we actualy see Roxas combine with Sora completely. Also Demyx in the underworld says "Roxas,come back to us". If Roxas had merged with Sora im pretty sure he wouldn't just be able to split and re join Org. 13 of his own volition. It only makes sense if he was using Sora to talk to Roxas elsewhere because they're connected. And as icing on the cake right before he fights Roxas Donald & Goofy are threatened by Samurai Nobodis the very kind Roxas controlled. He was using the nobodies to distract Donald & Goofy so hee could fight Sora uninterrupted. Plus those nobodies appeared in the Dark City area where only Heartless appear so Roxas must have brought the nobodies he controls with him. Unless Sora was able to control Roxas's Nobodies and i missed it that seems a little odd doesn't it?- paul@wiki

You're not thinking. Your Demyx arguement: If Roxas hadn't fused with Sora, what the hell was the point of Demyx telling Sora to come back to him? And pretty much everything else is random speculation. Sora and Roxas fused after the intro to the game; there's no arguement otherwise. The Splendiferous Gegiford 16:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

See thats interesting. I didnt know on talk pages rather than just adressing a point you could just dismiss it as speculation. Now that i am aware of this please allow me to dismiss you're argument as speculation since i don't see Roxas merge with Sora rather than putting together a complex argument based on EVIDENCE and LOGIC (see above).- The Splendiferous Gegifordapprentice 00:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)- paul@wiki

Oh, that's logic? Funny, I thought it was bullshit. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

went? Did he just fall into a plot hole until the end of the game? The Magnificent, Fantastic, Splendiferous Gegiford 15:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, just wow. Did you miss all the clear indications that the two were merged? Sora sheds a tear saying good bye to Roxas' friends even though he only knew them for the most of five minutes. Saïx goes "BTW axel wants to turn ya into a <3less!!!" Hell, you completely ignore Axel's part in this game. ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 01:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

1.Sora crying could just as easily have been because Hayner & co reminded him of himself, riku and kairi.If you don't agree with that then it could have been because Sora and Roxas are connected and he cried because he instinctivley knew Roxas cared for them, just like he just knew when he saw the photo that his name was Roxas.

Highly unlikely. These are all just hints of how Roxas is effecting Sora from within him, but you just completely misinterpreted it. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Barring the highly debateable proof you've already mentioned do you have any proof that you're right?-paul@wiki

2.Going back to Axel he wanted to turn Sora into a heartless TO PREVENT Sora and Roxas merging. Wow yourself, did you somehow ignore that Axel has two scenes in the game where he and Sora are in the same room.

Again, zero sense. The arguement of "Axel is in the same room as Sora" doesn't make any sense. Yes, Axel and Sora exist in the same plane of existence. Yippidy doo! The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Admittidly this was more of personal retort than an actual point-paul@wiki

3.For the plot hole comment considering how many unanswered questions crop up in the kingdom hearts series particularly in II it's easily within the realm of probability. I refer you to exactly why Kairi has a keyblade?

Then you tell me where he went. Tell me where Roxas went after DiZ had Roxas right where he wanted him, ready to fuse with Sora and after Roxas says "Looks like my summer vacation's over", and then later appears in a big void of nothingness, says "Sora!", and is enveloped in light. Oh, I know! He got rescued by Superman! You seem to have payed no attention whatsoever to the first portion of the game. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Multiple characters only appear in a handful of scenes the only real exceptions are Sora, Donald & Goofy. Why you say :IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE THE PROTAGONISTS. Also refering to point 4 Roxas could have gone off and found the unknown party he referenced in that clip.

4.Next, during the fight he says "Tell me why he picked you". Unless roxas went on a seperate trip after the intro ended there is no candidate to be "him". It couldnt be Diz he would have picked Sora because of his well known dislike for nobodies and he knew Roxas wouldnt fight the organization for him.Its not Xemnas because he knew Sora would oppose him and organization 13. Since all candidates in all 3 games have been ruled out that leaves only an unknown third party. Since this party isn't revealed in the game it must have been somebody roxas met or heard of after he left the simulated Twilight Town.

That entire scene is ambiguous. You're just overanalyzing it. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Going into detail is not overanalyzing.Once more saying that does not adress the point.

5.After the first round of the last battle is over then we actualy see Roxas combine with Sora completely.

No, Roxas is enveloped in light. Oh wait, where have I heard that before... Oh that's right, that's what happened at the beginning of the game! The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations you made a reasonable point. Problem: Lets assume that the white light does symbolise Roxas meging with Sora, that begs the question : If roxas did merge with sora at the start why did he need to do it again at the end surerly it would be redundent-paul@wiki

6.Also Demyx in the underworld says "Roxas,come back to us". If Roxas had merged with Sora im pretty sure he wouldn't just be able to split and re join Org. 13 of his own volition. It only makes sense if he was using Sora to talk to Roxas elsewhere because they're connected.

No, it doesn't. I retain my earlier arguement. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

All right if you're going to do that ill retain mine-paul@wiki

7.And as icing on the cake right before he fights Roxas Donald & Goofy are threatened by Samurai Nobodis the very kind Roxas controlled. He was using the nobodies to distract Donald & Goofy so hee could fight Sora uninterrupted. Plus those nobodies appeared in the Dark City area where only Heartless appear so Roxas must have brought the nobodies he controls with him. Unless Sora was able to control Roxas's Nobodies and i missed it that seems a little odd doesn't it?- paul@wiki

Again, ambiguous. It could mean anything. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact there could be an alternative doesn't alter the fact that logic agrees with me.-paul@wiki

You're not thinking. Your Demyx arguement: If Roxas hadn't fused with Sora, what the hell was the point of Demyx telling Sora to come back to him? And pretty much everything else is random speculation. Sora and Roxas fused after the intro to the game; there's no arguement otherwise. The Splendiferous Gegiford 16:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

See thats interesting. I didnt know on talk pages rather than just adressing a point you could just dismiss it as speculation. Now that i am aware of this please allow me to dismiss you're argument as speculation since i don't see Roxas merge with Sora rather than putting together a complex argument based on EVIDENCE and LOGIC (see above).- The Splendiferous Gegiford's apprentice 00:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps i didn't make myself clear. Not adressing a point and simply stating it is bull shit is not an argument.

Since you only managed to find fault with one argument(aside from your speculation remark SEE ABOVE) which i will later prove you to be incorrect on i will instead ask you to use reasoning to address the afore mentioned concerns. Now returning to logic i refer you to "Tell me. Tell me why he picked you." There is NO POSSIBLE CANDIDATE in any of the games. THE ONLY OPTION IS AN UNAMED THIRD PARTY. Its not even explained eactly what he was refering to. As for Demyx you are the one who's not thinking. The Ansem reports along with about twenty of the game's cutscenes emphasise that there is a special connection between Sora, Kairi and their respective nobdies. If Roxas was able to see Sora's memories via that connection why couldn't Demyx try to use that connection to communicate with Roxas who could be elsewhere at the time?

p.s simply saying there is no argument besides your's is not an argument.-paul@wiki

You've failed to convince me of anything. As I said, you seem to have failed to pay attention to anything that happened in the first part of the game. The WHOLE POINT of DiZ's and Riku's role in the first part of the game was to get Roxas to merge with Sora so that Sora could awaken. And guess what? SORA AWOKE. One last thing: in the World that Never Was, Riku tells Sora that Roxas is inside him. If Roxas had just fused with Sora an hour or so ago, how would Riku have known that? The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"..maybe he's been slow to awaken because the half of him that is roxas is still lacking". That one qoute from an Ansem Report is the whole basis of that last argument. 1."..MAYBE he's been slow to awaken because the half of him that is roxas is still lacking" 2. If we're going to form arguments based on Ansem reports allow me to make one : ".. all my theories have been blown apart...". Look it up if you like. 3.If you were paying attention in the first part of the game you would have noticed after trying to kill Diz the screen fades out and when it comes back Roxas is gone. There is no proof that they marged apart from your speculation.-paul@wiki

And there's no proof that they didn't merge. However, it's HEAVILY HINTED throughout the entire game that they did. The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

There just as many indicators that you misinterpreted that and it was simply stressing the connection between the two and not that they actualy merged into one until the finale. Also since you failed to address the other responses i can only assume you were unable to find anything wrong with them.-paull@wiki

It's that I'm unwilling to waste time trying to convince you of something that shouldn't even need to be debated. None of your "counter-points" warranted me responding to them anyway. The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

1.See now you're not making sense if you are unwiling to waste time convincing me exactly why is there a massive counter argument written by you above. 2.Im rather unwilling to repeat myself to you over & over but i do it anyway. All because im hoping to make you realise: IGNORING A PROBLEM & THROWING MEANINGLESS INSULTS AT IT DOES NOT MAKE IT GO AWAY! If it did there would be no such thing as global warming-paul@wiki

That's just it. All you're going to do is repeat the same thing over and over, so why should I even bother trying to argue with you? The Splendiferous Gegiford 19:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Because if you take any pride in what you do on Wikipedia you will try and help me sort this out-paul@wiki

I don't mean to offend but I think this entire conversation is meaningless to Wikipedia. This belongs in a message board, and even then I think it's outright trolling. - Zero1328 _Talk? 20:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. The Splendiferous Gegiford 20:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Paul, I'm sorry, but three experienced editors of this page, along with many others, agree on the fusion of Roxas and Sora at the beginning, with you as the only one disagreeing. Consensus rules Wikipedia. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 20:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

All right ill agree but not because i concede defeat: because the best outcome that can be achieved here is a stalemate. Now in the spirit of information im off to clock Kingdom Hearts 2 again-paul@wiki

Removing obvious information in Kingdom Hearts II isn't in the "spirit of information". ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 06:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither is adding a P.O.V and carefuly censoring any information to the contrary but <people> do it anyway-cant be bothered

What "information to the contrary"? Your opinions and ignoring the most obvious facts don't count. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 06:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

You're taking this way too personaly i was simply making an observation. As for the facts im not ignoring i just don't think they're as concrete as you do. The problem with assuming you've got a point across and not clarifying it, is that people can draw different conclusions from it.-paul@wiki

When Sora and Roxas fight, it is mentioned in Jiminy's Journal that only Sora could see Roxas. Most of the fight takes place on the stained glass, which represents Sora's heart. (The sequence is officially known as "Dive into the heart" in KH10 The battle was internal; Roxas was in Sora.

Every Organization member talks to both Sora and Roxas, as if there were two people standing there. This is exactly what happens when Roxas and Namine talk at the end; the fact that Sora can see it is either because Kairi is present (You appear as I remember you, and I appear as you remember me), or because Roxas or Namine WANT Soras to see it.

The battle between Sora and Roxas was due too Roxas's unhappyness with being the dorment persona. He beleived he could have kept Axel from dying (SPECULATION!) and wondered why DiZ picked Sora to be the one to beat Organization XIII. He understands why when he sees the stained glass, he knows now that Sora is the origional. He gladfully excepts his existence and the balence between him and Sora results in Final Form. --The Crowing 19:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow, all of you guys are acting just as immature as the Noid on the H*R Wiki Forum. Geg, you are right, it's HEAVILY HINTED in-game that Roxas DID merge with Sora. Paul@????, your observation seems to be somewhat incorrect. You are right on the fact there is no significant evidence that in KHII that Roxas could've possibly merged with Sora. However, other than the fact that Roxas and Sora might've not merged, it seems possible Roxas got sick and tired of being the "dormant" persona. Apostrophe, what action that you'd take will prevent this from being a stalemate? All of you, let's think this through. Demyx said, "Roxas, come back to us." This is 1 point for Geg. The Ansem Reports do have a comment to retaliate all of those "hints". This is 1 point for Paul. Sora could've saved Axel from dying if he did merge with Roxas, but what if Sora remembered Axel from Castle Oblivion? Point for Geg. 2 points for Geg and 1 point for Paul. The winner of this argument/flame war is Gegiford. Clan rHrN 22:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Hold it. Is there any offical sources proving that he did or didn't merge with Sora? 66.61.44.3 03:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hidden messages

I think the page is starting to take include way to many hidden messages. Granted, there are about a million different reasons as to why we should include them, but the fact that most of the history on this usually says "Reverted edits of anon x, changed back to last edits by registered user y" it seems to me that something is going wrong. Any ideas? -- SFH 19:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

..the history says that because it's reverted vandalism.—ウルタプ 20:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The HTML messages are included because people make the same mistake over and over. Mysterious, not Misterious! Larxene's real name is Arlene! Zexion's element is shadow! ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 21:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, It is comfirmed that Misterious is spelled correctly and Zexion does not have shadow as a element, and while Larxene's real name probably is Arlene, it's not offical. What I think we shoud do is keep the hidden messages, and make them more clear, listing examples of what not to put in there. In fact, I just added a few. Inkbottle 12:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)User:Inkbottle

• I know it's reverted vandalism. I'm saying that maybe we should try something else, since lots of people either don't see the messages (for reasons passing all human understanding) or just don't care. Any ideas? -- SFH 22:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Can someone edit Xigbar's information. Although most of it is accurate, saying that he "talks a lot" is an opinionated statement.

Final form Xemnas

• Does anyone have a picture of Xemnas in his final form robes, with his lightsaber-thingy weapons drawn? I think that would be a good addition. Or would that just be too many images? -- SFH 00:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's already 18 images, but I guess you could prune one of Roxas' images, or the MarluxiaxNobody orgy image. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 04:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Unnamed Nobody

When did Xemnas send an unnamed Nobody? -- SFH 16:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Part of the Plan?

Are you sure that Xemnas told Roxas the existance of Sora to have him betray the organization and merge with Sora? Why would he send Axel to destroy Roxas then? Axel mentiones he's been handed down orders to destroy Roxas and will be turned into a dusk if not. By, the way wouldn't they want to keep Roxas, so they could use him to accumulate the hearts, then use Sora. Twice the keyblade power to collect the hearts in half the time.

Chain of Memories Manga

Where, exactly, in the manga is Lexaeus shown in a gym, or Zexion shown with puzzles? IIRC, Lexaeus is the one who has a puzzle he fiddles with; he also reads manga. Zexion is never seen doing a puzzle, only drinking tea, and making pickled daikon once. The only time Zexion is seen holding any puzzle-type item is when he's standing where Lexaeus died, and picks up the puzzle that Lexaeus had been playing with (I can provide pages of the manga to verify this.) 24.68.104.77 05:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Actual hearts

The novel, however, states that they do have emotions, but are plagued with feelings of incompleteness. They label this as lacking hearts.

What novel are they talking about? Is that from Destruction of Hollow Bastion? -- SFH 20:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think they mean the KH2 novel. --melodiester 02:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Series main villians all along?

BTW I was in the neighborhood wondering if Xemnas and the gang were behind the Heartless all along, since the Heartless were meant to create Kingdom Hearts. If so do you think they were behind Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless' crimes as well?

Uhh, do you mean Maleficent in the second game? Because Xemnas may have been controlling her since she made more heartless and this in turn helps them since they want to make as many as possible for Sora to release the hearts and combine them to form Kingdom Hearts. As for Xehanort's heartless, I believe that he was working on his own and was controlling Maleficent in the first game. Point: Xemnas and his heartless are Xehanort and are resonsible for the creation and the heartless and all the lives and worlds claimed.

This does not belong in here. Ansem created the first heartless, those heartless stole thehearts of people, who became heartless and Nobodies, who were not behind it. And sign your name next time by typing this: "69.160.28.78 23:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)" without quotes.69.160.28.78 23:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Other Identities?

Since Xemnas and Roxas are anagrams for their real names except with an X added, i.e. Ansem and Sora. That would mean that the real names of the other members of Organization 13 can be found out!

• Except that would be speculation, and as it is stated many times throughout the article in hidden messages, we do not accept speculation. -- SFH 04:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The only official "real names" are for members 1-6 and 13. Any others, like Lea and Arlene, are unofficial. 69.160.28.78 23:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WHAT THE

Who the HELL deleted the last four member descriptions. There all gone. Geese, someone help us put it back.

• You can revert vandalism by going to the history section, and going to the last unvandalized edit. I've already gone ahead and done that. -- SFH 04:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

TALK

I found 2 perfect pictures for the page, I found a picture of Xemnas in his final form, not his armor form just the one with the white and black robe. And a picture of Saix in his Berserk form.

Star Wars references

Including the entire Assault of the Dreadnought (Death Star reference), the fact that Xemnas uses a weapon simular to a lightsaber, and the fact that he tried to turn Sora and Riku against eachother (something the Emperor tried with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker), i see that most of Organization XIII is a play on some of the parts of star wars.