Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/FXCM

Hello, I am Guanaco, and I'll be mediating this case if that's acceptable to the parties. Unfortunately I won't be available from August 7 to 22, but I hope we can get started and make some progress toward resolving the dispute. I'm currently reviewing the article history and the relevant talk pages to determine how we might best begin discussion.

In the meantime, would every party to the mediation indicate whether they are willing to move forward, with me as mediator? —Guanaco 17:59, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Editors involved in this dispute

1. Lenticularphoto (talk · contribs) -
2. Lqdr (talk · contribs) -
3. Smallbones (talk · contribs) -
4. Aglassofprosecco (talk · contribs) -
5. Nagle (talk · contribs) -
6. Lenaldinhodietmar (talk · contribs) -
7. Gouyoku (talk · contribs) - I accept Guanaco as the moderator. Gouyoku (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

General notes from the mediator

I'm going to avoid editing the article for the most part, but I'd like to see the parties continuing to improve it. The article needs work for clarity, possibly more information and updating. Generally don't be afraid to improve the article, but don't edit war or rehash stale arguments outside the mediation. If new issues arise, we can bring them here. —Guanaco 08:22, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

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Also known as Forex Capital Markets

I'd like to start with something in dispute, which is hopefully less contentious than some of the other issues. The question concerns two options for the first sentence:

• "FXCM, also known as Forex Capital Markets, is a retail foreign exchange broker..."
• "FXCM is a retail foreign exchange broker..."

I do see that in some of the legal notices on their website[1], they identify the organization as "Forex Capital Markets, Limited ('FXCM')". There are others variants as well, such as "Forex Capital Markets LLC". I think from previous discussion there is consensus that this name is factually accurate. I think the unresolved question is whether it is of similar importance to International Business Machines, etc. Are there examples on Wikipedia where the long form of a company's name is not used in the lead section? —Guanaco 20:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

It's complicated. The parent company is "FXCM Group".[2] Subsidiaries include "Forex Capital Markets, Ltd." (UK), "FXCM Australia Pty. Limited", "FXCM Markets Limited", (Bermuda), a subsidiary of "FXCM Newco LLC" (US) [3], which is a subsidiary of "FXCM Holdings LLC".[4], which is a subsidiary of "FXCM Inc."[5], which is now Global Brokerage, [6] and "FXCM Global Services, LLC". (Update: Global Brokerage reduced their holdings of FXCM group below 50%, so "subsidiary" is no longer appropriate.[7]) The group does business under the name FXCM. I could see "FXCM Group" in the lede. John Nagle (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I am not aware of any Wikipedia articles where long form of a company's name is omitted. Link provided to "FXCM Group" homepage [8] includes long form of the name in the copyright notice: "Copyright © 2017 Forex Capital Markets. All rights reserved". I do not understand the relevance of the subsidiaries list to this case. International Business Machines does business under the name IBM and both are included in the first sentence. I am not sure if "FXCM Group, also known as Forex Capital Markets, is a retail foreign exchange broker..." looks good, but I can compromise here. The removal of the long form name had no valid explanation and I do not understand the opposition against restoring it. Gouyoku (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

If that's what we go with, I would start with the word "The": "The FXCM Group, also known as Forex Capital Markets, is a retail foreign exchange broker..." It reads better in my opinion, and it's the phrasing used throughout fxcm.com. Before we proceed, we need to hear from Smallbones, who raised the strongest objections. —Guanaco 08:20, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Note that the first sentence already includes 2 company names, Global Brokerage, Inc. which is the owner of FXCM (and that is their sole business - owning FXCM) and FXCM, the former name of the business - which is the name they still do business under. "FXCM is a retail foreign exchange broker owned by Global Brokerage Inc."

As far as an example where the official name is not used in the first few sentences, see Time (magazine). "Time is an American weekly news magazine published in New York City. It was founded in 1923 and for decades was dominated by Henry Luce, who built a highly profitable stable of magazines."

Also see E. F. Hutton & Co., whose official name is "EF Hutton America, Inc." "EF Hutton is an American stock brokerage firm founded in 1904 by Edward Francis Hutton and his brother, Franklyn Laws Hutton."

You can get the official name of any company traded in the US simply by googling their name and the words "annual report" Click on any link with "annual report" or "10-K" in the summary and the first words (not logos) will be the official name of the company, unless the 1st page has "official name" or similar elsewhere. A 10-K is an annual report filed with the SEC.

Googling "FXCM annual report" gives you 2 choices, since they changed their name about the same time the official report was filed. http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AMDA-13JM9E/4796132183x0x946999/1D1E1792-C23A-4FC4-BF6F-AF015E3DDA26/2016_Annual_Report.pdf which gives "GLOBAL BROKERAGE INC"

http://ir.globalbrokerage.info/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1499912-16-15&CIK=1499912 gives "FXCM, Inc."

Since Global Brokerage, Inc. is their name now we should include it. Since FXCM is the name they use to conduct business, we should include it. Nothing else is needed in the lede. Almost all companies that deal in multiple markets will have multiple subsidiaries with slightly different names, or their names have changed over time. These details are generally covered in the body of the article, if at all.

The main reason I object to the inclusion of "Forex Capital Markets" in the 1st sentence is that it was being used for SEO (Search Engine Optimization) as confirmed by Lqdr

Since User:Lqdr has confirmed that he is a paid editor for the client "FXCM", perhaps he should clear up whether "FXCM" is unclear in any way. Can he tell us whether he works for Global Brokerage, Inc., Global Brokerage Group, FXCM Group, or FXCM UK? Or does it matter? When we say "FXCM" does everybody know who we are talking about?

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:34, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I see a few issues with what you wrote:

• Global Brokerage is not the new name of FXCM. As I have corrected you many times on this very point, it was the co-owner of FXCM that changed name[9]. I don't mind extending this topic to the next part of the first sentence. As Nagle mentioned earlier in this thread, it is no longer a majority owner either. If we are to include GLBR, it stands to reason Leucadia should also be included: "FXCM Group, also known as Forex Capital Markets, is a retail foreign exchange broker jointly owned by Leucadia National and Global Brokerage Inc."
• I did not know "TIME" is an acronym. What does it stand for?
• What is the long form name of "EF Hutton"? My guess is that E and F are given names, but is the company using them in long form anywhere?
• You bring up SEO as the main reason, but if you are the one that first removed it after seven years of inclusion, would it not mean you are the one guilty of SEO? Please explain the original removal[10].
• I find it interesting you are now suggesting a paid editor should decide on the content of the article. I'm not complaining, just observing a curiosity.

Question to the moderator: should arguments based on external reasons, like SEO or wishes of FXCM itself, be allowed here? I do not believe contents of Google "information box" should matter to the WP project.

Gouyoku (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Just briefly for now. Global Brokerage, Inc legally owns FXCM. FXCM is legally a subsidiary of Global Brokerage, Inc. Anything you say otherwise is just nonsense. According to http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AMDA-13JM9E/4796132183x0x946999/1D1E1792-C23A-4FC4-BF6F-AF015E3DDA26/2016_Annual_Report.pdf

"In February 2017 we changed our name from “FXCM Inc.” to “Global Brokerage, Inc.” Global Brokerage, Inc. (“Global Brokerage” or the “Company”) is a publicly traded company which, through its holding company, Global Brokerage Holdings, LLC (“Holdings”) (f/k/a FXCM Holdings, LLC), owns 50.1% of FXCM Group, LLC. " A paragraph later it says that FXCM UK is a subsidiary. Leucadia has specifically said that FXCM is not it's subsidiary. If you are going to argue against FXCM being a subsidiary of Global Brokerage, I don't see any point in the discussion whatsoever. Facts are facts - don't deny them. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I am going by information that Nagle provided: "(Update: Global Brokerage reduced their holdings of FXCM group below 50%, so "subsidiary" is no longer appropriate.[11])". Back to the topic: please explain the original removal[12]. Gouyoku (talk) 19:40, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

FXCM's company structure is rather confusing. I'll try to break it down here:

• In 2017 - "FXCM, Inc." changed its name to "Global Brokerage, Inc."
• This was achieved via a "managing membership interest" in Global Brokerage Holdings, LLC (formerly known as, FXCM Holdings, LLC)
• Global Brokerage Holdings, LLC owns 50.1% of the FXCM Group, LLC through operating subsidiaries
• The remaining 49.9% membership interest in FXCM Group, LLC is held by Leucadia National Corporation
• FXCM Group is a holding company of Forex Capital Markets Limited, inclusive of all EU branches (FXCM UK), FXCM Australia Pty. Limited, (FXCM AU), and all affiliates of aforementioned firms, or other firms under the FXCM Group of companies [collectively "FXCM"]

So FXCM, or Forex Capital Markets, is the brand encompassing all the remaining geographical assets and the face of FXCM to customers.

How much of this you do or do not include is evidently up for debate. As has been previously mentioned - this was only changed to manipulate Google's knowledge graph on google.co.uk (the knowledge graph no longer appears for an "fxcm" search on google.com).

With regards to the reference to Time (magazine) and E. F. Hutton & Co. here Smallbones. You kindly informed me on June 19th, 2017, - "don't talk about "other stuff", e.g. BP or Wells Fargo. Enforcing our rules can be very time consuming and we are volunteers. We cannot correct all other articles, before correcting this one. Your arguments along this line will strike people as similar to a 5 year old saying "but Momma, Billy's mom lets him chew gum!"

So I would assume that rule applies across the board and therefore other pages cannot influence the naming conventions used on the FXCM page?

Prior to this revision "Forex Capital Markets" had been in the lede for FXCM since at least 2010. It should likely be added back in. Lqdr (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2017 (UTC)