Talk:Southern American English

historical roots

A small point this, not directly related to the subject matter, but what does this sentence mean?

"The South was known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands - the West Country. (The West Country dialect of Britain is also very similar to the Southern dialects.)"

Is it implying that West Midlands (of England) and West Country (of England) are synonymous? If so then this is very much mistaken. Both regions have very distinct, but quite different, accents associated with them.--81.153.216.201 22:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Question: What are some historical roots of the Southern American English dialect, if any?

Answer: David Hackett Fischer writes in Albion's Seed that "Scholars generally agree that this language developed from the "northern" or "Northumbrian" English that was spoken in the lowlands of Scotland, in the North of Ireland, and in the border counties of England during the seventeenth and early eighteenth century" (Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America p654). Speaking completely ex cathedra here, I'd say that Fischer's "backcountry" is the major origin of Southern today, unless you live in the Virginia tidewater or the Carolinas, in which case you're probably speaking a variant of "the dialect of rural Sussex" (261) brought over by the pro-monarchist planter aristocracy during the Commonwealth. Notcarlos 00:12, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

At a recent conference on English Dialects of the Carolinas, Sociolingist Dr. Walt Wolfram conceded that although southern English shares commonalities with British English, as you noted, it was greatly influenced by Scots-Irish settlers in the region, but, interestingly, that the most salient differences between Southern American English and other varieties of American English have actually developed since the Civil War.

In places that have been more geographically isolated, these differences are more pronounced today. The Coastal Carolinas and the Sea "Gullah" Islands of South Georgia, as well as many areas of Appalachia are good examples of such isolation. Only in the Ocracoke Brogue of the Carolina coast can we here any connection to the English of Sussex.Frazzled 22:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled

Frazzled is correct here. I have traveled through and known many people from the Virginia and North Carolina tidewater region. In places like Windsor or Scotland Neck, NC, the brogue is quite dominant (e.g. "aoot" for "out"). However, in studying dialects, we cannot ignore how mass-communication and rapid-transit have changed the nature of linguistics.

I live near the French Broad River gorge north of Asheville, NC. In this area, through the 1800's and early 1900s, many words were pronounced differently, depending upon which side of the river one was raised. (This is now mostly notable amongst older adults native to the area.) "Chicken" on one side of the river is "Cheeken" on the other. Though today insigificant, the river was a hard boundary between people. Too deep to be forded, too rough to be ferried, and too wide to easily build bridges across, it separated communities even though the distance between them may have been just a mile or two. Even today, only five two-lane bridges (accessible only via steep and winding roads) cross over the 40 miles of river between Asheville and the Tennessee state line - and the most used route between towns north and west of Asheville is not direct, but rather to travel to the city, then away from the city out to your destination. As people from other parts of the world gradually moved into these communities, subtle differences in accent or dialect would blend into the local vernacular. This resulted in slight, yet distinct differences in the language of the east-side from the west-side. The point being, although one can assign a dialect to a specific region, there are degrees of variation within a given dialect. Theoretically, one could track the granularity down to familial units or even an individual (though rather impractical).

Moreover, the influx of mass communication since the turn of the previous century has caused people to become acutely aware, on a near daily basis, of variations in a given language. The convenience of faster transit (cars, planes, etc.) have allowed people to relocate with minimal effort....which brings me to my point: The fact that both of these advents have occured near simultaneously presents an interesting dilemma to the notion that dialect can always be identified with locale.68.187.192.107 20:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

buggy

Who calls grocery carts a "buggy"? I don't doubt that some do, but I am from the Gulf Coast and have never heard a grocery cart called that before. It might be a subregional thing. Also, "done" instead of "already" is only common in uneducated dialect, as far as I know. To mention that as part of southern dialect would be analogous to saying the U.S. northeastern dialect puts 'you' with 'was', e.g. "You was wrong." Mauvila 07:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The use of "buggy" for supermarket cart is widespread in Southern Appalachian English. To speak of "Southern English" as a homogenous dialect would be akin to referring to the English language as consisting only of the Queen's variety. [Frazzled]

Growing up I called them buggies sometimes. I don't think I ever really do that anymore, but that's proof that people do say it. I also say done instead of already sometimes, and I don't think that makes me uneducated, does it? Everyking 14:51, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You say "We done did this"? What part of the south are you from? Mauvila 02:16, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In coastal South Carolina, "buggy" is pretty much routine. Pollinator 16:04, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

I say 'buggy' -- my side of the family that uses that word comes from Central Alabama. Nautile 22:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard "buggy" or "we done did this" and I'm from Georgia. It does seem to be the kind of thing that would distinguish "plantation" or "educated" accents from "common" or "redneck" accents. Haverton 17:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Varieties of Dialects are not only distinguished by region but (as you so crassly asserted) by social class. Indeed what is "common" then would be what is most widespread, not what is necessarily espoused by the educated or the elite. Thus, "done" is common (as in "you done said the wrong thing") as is the use of the double modal (e.g., "you might could think, but you ain't got the proper equipment"). Please do educate yourself: accent is merely one part of dialect; the part under disucssion here is vocabulary, which I think all will agree is the most interesting and colorful aspect of language. Unfortunately, the prejudiced you eschew I presume to interpret as your wanting us all to speak "McEnglish." Well, sorry to tell ya, pal, but I reckon it ain't gonna happen.Frazzled 21:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.

I live on the eastern Mississippi Gulf Coast, not too far from Mobile, AL and "buggy" is the common word here for shopping carts. CelticJobber 3:19, 23 March, 2006 (UTC)

Lived in Savannah, GA for several years and they used the word "buggy" all the time. As in "My friend carried me to the Pig and helped me find a buggy." Brynna 05:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

As a native Arkansan, I must say that the use of buggy is extremely widespread, even in the "affluent" areas of Little Rock and NW Arkansas (Fayetteville, Bentonville). To say shopping cart would sound weird to me.

My dialectal background is coastal Virginia & Georgia, and I'm surprised to find that "buggy" is considered a regional word. I thought it was in universal usage.

merry-marry

Angr, if you're reading this: you added Mary to the merry-marry section. Is this something you know for certain? I was pretty sure that the typical Southern pattern was to merge two but keep the other distinct, not to maintain a three-way distinction. AJD 17:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't tell the difference between these three words. I was born in the Ohio river valley in Indiana and grew up in Houston. --dude

For me, these 3 have the same pronunciation, although my father distinguished "Mary" as having a long /a/ sound. We speak a variety of Southern Appalachian English.Frazzled 21:48, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.

I grew up in Houston, and Mary, Merry, and Marry all have the same pronunciation there. The only person I knew who said 'Mary' differently than that was a British woman named Mary. - VirgilOrion

You'uns et al.

In re: the edit by 64.16.181.63, who wrote: I have never heard "we'uns" in my life except out of northern people that want to make fun of southern people that use "you'uns" in their speech. As a southern speaker, I find this quite offensive.

• I too am a native southern speaker, and, having lived in and around the Ozark mountains for some time, I have heard people say "we'uns" (pr. closer to "weens"). I'm sorry that you found this offensive, but it is a vaild change in the language that has been verified by linguists, not all of whom are "northern people" of a perjorative bent. Notcarlos 14:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've lived in the South (Gulf coast) all my life and I have never heard anything-uns. I don't think Ozarks/Appalachian dialects are typical for the South. --Mauvila 23:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I never knew my father's parents, who passed on some 8 years before I was born; but I have two letters his mother wrote that contain many "youens." She was born in 1870 in West Virginia's Monongahela County.

My parents are from Wayne County, Southern Illinois and both use the word "you'uns." I've also heard it from people in and around Springfield, Columbia, and Jefferson City, MO due to the fact that I'm an Internet support rep for a major cable company in that area. However, when I lived in Savannah, GA I never heard anyone using it, nor have I heard anyone from the Deep South use it on the phone. Brynna 05:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

You'uns is a famously Appalachian and Ozark feature that it is uncommon near the Coastal South. It also has a famous Pittsburgh variant, "yinz".

Word use

Drowneded? I've lived in several parts of the south and never heard this word, which an anon added to the word use section. I'm deleting it unless there's concensous to keep it. Sayeth 02:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I've heard it used by many Southerners for the past tense/participle of drown. I'm putting it back where it was, Smith

Ever Heard Bob Dylan's song "When the Ship comes in?"(c1963) "Then they'll raise their hands, Sayin' we'll meet all your demands, But we'll shout from the bow your days are numbered. And like Pharaoh's tribe, They'll be drownded in the tide, And like Goliath, they'll be conquered." Frazzled 15:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)frazzled

Growing up in Houston, everyone said "drownded", and I honestly can not recall the actual grammatically correct. - VirgilOrion

It is all explained at: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html

Rather than discuss individual words, why not just link to http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html All this work has already been done by professionals.

Drownded is quite common in North Carolina.

y'all

I've disovered (at least in "rural" lake county, FL), that "y'all" is Singular!. It's "all y'alls" or "alls y'alls" for the plural. For example, you go into an Apopka restaurant, and the server will ask "Has alls y'alls decided whatcha fixin' ta eat?" Swirsky 14:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've lived in the South all of my life, and I know that "y'all" always refurs to more then one person.

I've heard both "y'all" and "y'alls" but they were always referring to the plural - VirgilOrion

I agree...y'all has always been plural to my knowledge. However, I've heard may people (in Southern Appalacia) say "We'll see ya later," when, in fact, the "We" is only one person.

This is how I've always heard understood and heard "y'all" being used (using, for instance, a university baseball team)

• Q. "What is y'all's name?"
  • A. "The University of Alabama Varisty Baseball Team" used as a general consensus, or grouping quality
• Q. What is all (of) y'all's name?" (in large group)
  • A. "Matt", "Nathan", "Philip", "Randall" … used to indicate the answer of each individual in the group
• S. "I caught y'all's home run yesterday" even if talking to directly to the batter who hit the homer, he's still an individual in the group

The last is the one that confuses most people and causes them to think it is being used in the singular, but it's not. You cannot say "I went to y'all's house" to someone who lives alone. If you say it to someone who lives with someone else, even though the both of them are not present, you still end up to the individual as part of the greater whole.

Tidewater Virginia "ou"

In Tidewater Virginia, where I grew up, one of the dialect markers is something similar to Canadian raising. My wife, a New Englander, used to hear my parents' "about" as "aboot". I'm not a linguist, and know little about documented studies of American accents, so I'm reluctant to add this to the article (plus, it may be a regional distinction that's dying out). Do any Wikipedians with more linguistic training know anything about this Virginia "ou"? —Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Speakers of this Virginia dialect also pronounce "tomato" as "t'-MAH-duh", for what little that may be worth. Sorry that I'm not fluent in IPA, or I'd be more precise about these pronounciations. —Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the older Tidewater generation still pronouces the "ou" as aboot, hoose (house), roote (route), but its not as sharp or pronounced as the Canadian vowel raising. To my ears, its in between the two pronunciations.

In fact, Southerners not only never confuse "you" with "y'all", but in most areas "y'all" has become a plural 2nd person singular pronoun (yall) with its own possessive (yalls), the possession of which is sometimes even doubled (yallses) as the past tense is doubled in "drownded". An influential discussion written by a linguist who was born and raised in North Carolina may be found at http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html. The reason Northerns cannot understand this usage is that they do not understand Southern culture: it is impolite to single individuals out of the group they belong to as someone above has correctly pointed out. To invite one member of a family to your home is offensive. "Yall come" may be uttered to an individual but it always applies to his or her entire family. The article above explains everything discussed here.

Rather than try to list all the thousands of elements of southern US regional dialects, why not just link to a page by a professional linguist born and raised in the South who has already made up a list that characterizes the dialect rather fairly if humorously: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html

Absurd

Maybe I am just crazy, but I find this whole concept rather absurd. I am from the deep south, live in the not-as-deep-but-more-coastal south, and lived in New England for a couple of years. I am sorry to guffaw at the linguists, but southern drawl is nothing more than a few words that are pronounced differently along with a couple of regionally affiliated slang terms. I don't speak a different dialect, I just have an accent. --Coldbourne 10:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Just to add some more dimension to your analysis, note that you do indeed "just have an accent" as all speakers of all varieties of all languages have "accents." To say one has an accent is to say that one has a systematic, rule based, phonology which is somehow distinctive from another group of speakers. Therefore all speakers of all varieties have accents.

Southern varieties of English are rule based systems of pronunciation, lexicon, and grammar. They are not random elements or isolated features. Also, southern speech is not equivalent to slang, although southern slang exists as slang exists in all language varieties. Slang describes terms used in informal setting which are basically transient in usage. Southern varieties have their own documented lexical items which are rather stable, unlike slang. CMcLewin 21:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

New Gramamar division

I have made an edit of the Word Use section so that it is divided into word use and grammar. I also added a few different grammar points. Most of the new information comes from English in the United States (2003).

It looks pretty good, but if "hot water heater" is frequently used outside of the South, shouldn't it be omitted since the point is to mark differences? AEuSoes1 07:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this seems reasonable. I will remove, but I'm open to discussion on the topic. --Oxen 11:17, 26 December 2005

I already removed it. I'd like to see evidence other words predominate in other parts of the country before having it restored here. --Angr (t·c) 07:41, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

Southern American English to Southern Drawl. The Southern Drawl is the more common name for the dialect, so the article should be moved there. Robot32 23:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose. "Southern drawl" is a vague, somewhat disparaging name for one aspect of Southern American English. --Angr (t·c) 23:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose The term is often used as a pejorative. Pollinator 01:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose for both the reasons listed above. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose for reasons above. Especially the point about drawl being a pejorative.--Alabamaboy 02:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose in linguistic circles, SAE is the more common term and this is a linguistics topic. And the reasons already stated. AEuSoes1 03:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Besides reasons listed above, Southern drawl is sometimes used by linguists to describe a single aspect of SAE, as is discussed in the article. -- Oxen 02:03, 30 DEC 2005

Actually, it's used mostly by non-linguists to describe a single aspect of SAE. --Angr (t·c) 07:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose Dito to all of the above reasons because the "drawl" which the public refers to is only an informal description of some of the phonological features of SAE.

CMcLewin 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose What kind of asshole labels a whole set of dialects as 'drawl'?Cameron Nedland 23:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Southern Appalachian

"The Southern Appalachian dialect is, among all the dialects of American English, the one most closely related to the Scots dialect of English (see Scots language, Ulster Scots language)." It doesn't sound very Scots. Any sources to back up this tenuous claim?

No, there's no evidence of this. I compared some Scottish Gaelic phrases to Appalachian English phrases just as a reference point in the entry I wrote for Appalachian English, but this should not be taken as proof that there is any similarity. The Scots who moved to Appalachia were mainly from the Lowlands, and thus were monolingual English speakers, not Gaelic speakers. I think the Gaelic speakers retreated into the Highlands of Scotland. 63.23.9.77 03:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Scots refers to the Emglish dialect spoken in Scotland. Comparisons with Gaelic is useless.

Southern United States English

Shouldn't this be Southern United States English? Southern American implies South America. It's actually southern only in the context of the United States. Ken 23:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No, the English of South America would be South American English. Since the large majority of English speakers in the Americas are in North America, one can use Southern to mean the southern portion of the English-speaking region. AEuSoes1 23:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with AEuSoes1. In addition, changing the article to Southern United States English would mean using a term no no one uses or would recognize.--Alabamaboy 00:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Ken in this one.Cameron Nedland 23:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The adjectival form of South America is simply South American, hence, Southern American references to the Southern parts of America, implicitly the United States given that the southern tips of the Americas speak Spanish. Besides, Southern American English is the standard linguistics term used in academic papers and critical studies on the topic, and since the role of Wikipedia is to describe not prescribe, the title should thus remain Southern American English. Matthew Stuckwisch 07:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Matthew Stuckwisch. To use any other name would be original research, which is not allowed here.--Alabamaboy 16:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with Matthew. Angr (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You only say it is the standard linguistics term because the United States' population are the ones who write it. I think it is derogatory to suggest that american is just the United States - I agree with Ken that this should be southern united states english or something along those lines. Hombre Equis 15:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

== Naming... == (from the Southern literature talk-page) Shouldn't this page be called Southern-American literature rather than simply Southern literature? --205.188.117.6 05:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

No. To call it that would be inaccurate because 1) That implies literature from South America and 2) Southern literature is what the genre is called by all acceptable academic and literary sources. Best, --Alabamaboy 16:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems inaccurate because most academics would call literature from South/Central America South American literature (with further subsets by country), Central American literature, Mexican literature, etc. I mean, being an American from the Southern USA (North Carolina) I understand it perfectly, but it still seems a bit too ethnocentric because this "title" could apply to the Southern part of just about any country -- yet it is reserved exclusively for the American South? Why? This topic would perhaps be better called Literature of the American South or Literature of the Southern United States but these may both be a bit unwieldy, especially for a Wikipedia page title. Therefore, it seems best to shoot for Southern-American literature. --205.188.117.6 07:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW -- I just saw (on the Southern literature page) that the Southern dialect is found on the page entitled "Southern American English" -- this seems to reiterate my point that this page should be promptly re-named Southern-American literature (plus or minus the hyphen) to make it clearer for readers and especially to help avoid confusion with international readers who don't know Charleston from Kalamazoo. --205.188.117.6 07:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Would someone go and change the main Southern literature page name and have it redirect to the proper Southern American literature page? If this page is called "Southern American English," shouldn't the other be called "Southern American literature"? Southern literature is far too broad and could apply to many-many countries...thanks. --205.188.116.7 07:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Reckon

The word "reckon" which is often used in the South in the place of the words "think", "suppose", or "guess" needs to be mentioned in this article. An example of "reckon's" usage: "I reckon I'd better stop speeding, or I might get pulled over."

Suprisingly (to me at least) Australians use this very often. As a Midwesterner, I think of the South every time. I guess I am in South Australia. Hmm... --Xyzzyva 11:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Accents

The main difference in dialects of Southern American English would be Geography. The Inland-Southern accents are very similar and can't really be distinguished from. Most of North-central GA,AL,MS, North LA, Central to Southern ARK, East and parts of North Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and the piedmonts of SC and NC. All have the typical Southern Accent we think of or that hollywood galmourized. Also noted Some parts of North Florida have similar accents among local residents as well as secluded parts of Southern GA and AL. The coastal dialect is probally the older dialect deriving from the colonial settlers rather than Scotch-Irish and working-class English immigrants. This dialect usually is spoken in the higher classes of southern society a great example of this would be in the Atlanta area; in blue collar communities the thicker inland accent is common but in the city among the distinguished residents the old coastal dialect is heard resembling the plantation society of the lowlands. Done, fixin, ain't, "cain't", boy, folks, are commonly used in the inlands. Also African-American vernacular had a large influence on this accent as well due to the closeness with the poor whites of the south as they share cropped side by side, several pronunciations and words were exchanged. Other dialects can be categorized as Southern American English as well for example: Southern Illinios, Extreme Southern Missouri, and well into Indiana accents are very similar to those of the south. The explanation of this is in Indiana and in Southern Illinios is due to the migration of a substantial amount of poor whites to the area from MS, TN, AL, KY, and to a smaller part Georgia and Arkansas. However in Missouri it was probally derived from the area. These accents are NOT RELATED TO ANY PART OF THE MIDWEST FROM LINGUISTICAL RESEARCH. The Texas accent is somewhat of a blend. Texas was settled by settlers from the State of Georgia ( included MS and AL at the time) and the Tennessee frontier. when opened to settlement by the spanish. As immigrants from Germanic and Slavic languages settled into central Texas the dialects began to blend. Then the promise of Texas success to Americans in the North brang the third influence. But the strong majority which is present in speech comes from the original settlers of Texas.

The accents how ever are not from celtic origins and have no relations to the language of Gaelic, But are rather close to Old English. Due to cultural and settlement influences from Germanic tribes of the Isles of Britian. Many typical Germanic pronunciations were dropped with other influences.

A question about the Texas accent: I grew up in Houston, and then moved to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I've noticed a few differences in vocabulary. For instance, the way Houstonians pronounce the name of their own city. You could easily tell who was a native or not by the way they pronounced Houston with a "y" sound instead of the "h" sound. A slight blur between an "e" and "o" follows it up. Texas, or Houston at least, was also gaining a strong influence from Mexican-Spanish, mostly in vocabulary. Going out into the country a bit more, a slight Germanic influence is there, mostly due to the large amount of Czech settlers. My grandparents, and others their age, don't have what I'd considered even a slight Southeran American-English accent or vocabulary. Certainly a more older version of the current Texan way of speak though. Honestly, the typical Southeran American English, from any region, sounds nearly foreign to me, in the same way that accents from New York or California do. Is the Texas accent/vocabulary within a few decades of becoming its own dialect? - VirgilOrion

I don't know what research has been done into the question, but I do know there's not just one Texas accent. By my observation (I grew up in Austin), East Texas has a much more typical "Southern accent" than West Texas, and English-speakers in South Texas usually speak fairly "standard" General American. Angr (talk • contribs) 06:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I wish Arkansas was discussed more in this article, I think we have one of the most varied situations. People from southwestern Arkansans (Like Texarkana, my home city) can sound like anything from Cajun to Texan to Mississippi Deltan, Eastern Arkansans usually speak the Inland dialect most associated with the typical southern accent. People from Little Rock have their own little accent, too. Also, it seems that cities immediately south of LR (Benton, Arkadelphia) still sound like they speak Inland/Mississippi Deltan, but people in cities immediately north (Conway, Russelville) sound more like NW Arkansans who speak differently (Almost no accent, at least the educated people!). Here in NW Arkansas, there are many college students and business professionals (Wal-Mart is headquartered here) as well as people from the bigger cities in Missouri (who speak more midwestern and use more metropolitan words). Therefore, there are almost no distinguishing accents for this area. (Until, however, you head east towards Mountain Home and Jonesboro, where they, in my opinion, have a whole different way of speaking; probably influenced by the accents of Kentucky and Tennessee).

Sorry for the length, I just thought it was interesting.

Elizabethan English in the Appalachians

Many people believe that a dialect close to that of Elizabethan English is spoken in remote parts of the Appalachians. The idea has currency because it is attractive and compelling. It demonstrates a yearning for a sense of historical longevity within a young country; it lends comfort to those who wish to emphasise the Anglo-Saxon nature of America's cultural origins in the face of its ethnic diversity; it confirms the "backwoods" stereotype. However, it is merely a cultural myth; there is no linguistc evidence to support it. This myth has spread through the writings of jounalists rather than the writings of the well-informed. It should not be perpetuated in this article.

^Show evidence supporting your case or you'll just continue to be ignored. There's plenty of evidence supporting a conection between Elizabethan English and the English spoken in the Appalachians. It's just that Elizabethan English had numerous dialects (Hiberno-English is very much an Elizabethan dialect), just as PDE has numerous dialects. Furthermore, language is an organic thing. Certainly, the Appalachian dialect may not be exactly what the first settlers spoke, but that doesn't mean it's grown far apart. If all you're going off of is books you've read, in their original form, from the 15-1600's then you're an idiot. It's a known fact that what was written was not what was spoken and that we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke.

^Do I need to point out that it shouldn't be up to me to provide evidence to support a negative. On the other hand, anyone who espouses this theory had better come up with something compelling, hadn't they? The trouble is, nobody has. It is not just a lack of empirical linguistic evidence that stands in the way of this theory; it just doesn't hold water. Firstly, no Elizabethan settlement survived in North America. Jamestown, Virginia (the first permanent colony) was formed under the reign of James I. Furthermore, Europeans have populated the southern mountains for only about 200 years, so how did they manage to preserve their "Elizabethan" (or should that be "Jacobean") dialect during the intervening 200 years? Secondly, exactly what counts as speaking "Elizabethan"? If you go to England and visit the county of South Yorkshire, you will find that the inhabitants use the archaic pronouns "thee" and "thou". Why doesn't anyone accuse them of having preserved "Elizabethan" English? The answer is because archaic speech is not unusual. Archaisms are used throughout the English speaking world: they do not constitute evidence that a dialect has been preserved in any special way. It is claimed that the Appalachian dialect has been preserved by the isolation of its speakers, but no one could claim that South Yorkshire towns like Sheffield or Barnsley are isolated places. If Appalachian speech does contain archaisms, what makes it more "Elizabethan" than the multitude of other dialects which use lexical items or grammatical patterns that were also around back then? Finally, if "we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke (sic)" then how can anyone assert that modern people speak like them? That is illogical, Captain! I'm afraid that written texts are all we have as evidence for Elizabethan speech. What else do you propose we use as evidence? Sir Walter Ralegh's ipod?

I have heard this popular myth many times. Elizabethan English is a colloquial term for Early Modern English, the formal term (I just changed the link). Elizabethan or Early Modern English is not limited to the English spoken during the lifetime of QEI or Shakespeare. I agree, however, that the entire premise seems illogical. EME is usually cited as ending around 1650; permanent English settlers first arrived in the Americas in 1607. However, generally people cite not only vocabulary but pronunciation.

Luckily, we do have Sir Walter Raleigh's iPod to . . . no, wait. We have other linguistic evidence. For example, we know about the Great Vowel Shift--a major change in pronunciation in the 16th century. Despite all that, I agree that the assertion is specious (or at least unverified) and should probably be removed unless we can find and cite a reliable source for the rumor. JordeeBec 22:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Inversion a joke addition. Huh?

I recently saw my addition Inversion of indefinite pronouns: "everwhere", "everwhat", etc., in place of "wherever", "whatever" in word use was removed by a random IPer for being "a joke". I'm sorry, has he or she ever been in the South? This is still said with relative frequency and mentioned in many conference proceedings I've been to on linguistics.

Can you provide a link to source so that other people can verify it? Angr (t • c) 07:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's listed in most major dictionaries as a SAE dialect word. See [1]. I'd cite the conference proceedings, but I didn't exactly record them :) Matthew Stuckwisch 09:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

History of Settlement

I have not read the 1860 consensus, but I can certainly tell you that the South is very much an Anglo-Saxon area. Sure, it wasn't solely settled by English from the West Midlands, but it is not primarily Celtic, nor is the West Midlands a Celtic region. The stupidty would be excusable except that this is a text that is otherwise very professional and Wikipedia is itself a credible on-line source. The South is AngloSaxon. If you want to contend that there's a strong Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot (that is not the same as "Irish") influence then o.k., but those really aren't a truly Celtic people, either. Well, whatever, I fixed it, but from now on may we keep to fact and not to peronal musings.

No, you didn't "fix it". You changed someone else's sourced statement to your own unsourced personal musings. The previous version had a link to source the claim "three-quarters of white Southerners had surnames that were Scottish, Irish or Welsh in origin" (namely http://www.americasvoices.org/archives2003/AdamsJ/AdamsJ_061403.htm), but unfortunately the link doesn't work any more (at least not for me right now). Now it's up to you to provide sources for the claims "The South known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands" and "Settlement was also made by peoples from other parts of the Brisith isles, particularly by Protestants from Ulster; however, their influence on SAE was limited." Angr (t • c) 05:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Tastes pronounced "Taste-is"

Where I live in coastal Mississippi, it's common especially for older people to pronounce the "s" at the end of the word tastes, so that it sounds more like "taste-is". An example would be "This tea tastes good". Has anyone else heard it pronounced this way in another part of this South? Would this use be appropriate to add onto this entry? CJ

Only if you can cite a reliable source where it's discussed. Personal observations are considered original research and can't be included. Angr (t • c) 07:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

In western and central NC, I've heard some (very few) people use "costs" this way. "It cost-es a whole lot." But I wouldn't say that's an overwhelmingly common thing. Dubc0724 12:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Needs more famous examples

In my opinion, this article should cite literary examples from famous works written in a Southern dialect for examples of speech. Many writers write in a very phonetic fashion when a character is speaking in Southern, and accurately shows the manner of speach. One obvious example of a source to quote from would be Faulker's works, but there are plenty of other good sources for this as well. Also, this has the additional benefit of being a reliable source, making the need for citing additional references unneeded. --SeizureDog 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Early Modern (Elizabethan) English Myth removed

I rephrased the following from Different Southern American English dialects/Midland & Highland/South Midland or Highland Southern (it was the last phrase of the first paragraph):

Original and has retained a number of elements of Early Modern English (the language spoken by Shakespeare)

Rephrased The dialect is said to retain some features of Early Modern or Shakespearean English which General American English has lost. [2]

If someone would like to change this back, please include references to scholarly, peer-reviewed works which back up this claim and/or provide specific examples. Here are my references for changing it:

• Linguistic Society of America See the paragraph under Language Variation.
• Ohio University See Myth #9. While these authors conclude the myth is harmless, it doesn't mean we should perpetuate it.
• Language Log Blog at U Penn (#1): As she states, Standard English has also preserved a number of features of Shakespearean English--we just don't notice them because they're standard. It's hardly notable that SAE may have retained a few other features--especially if we leave the vague claim at that.
• Language Log Blog at U Penn (#2). See for yourself. I'm from NC and my mother's family hearkens from WVa--and I can't understand a word of the first recording of an authentic Shakespearean pronunciation. This page also gives an explanation as to how they've determined what the authentic pronunciation is.

Basically, I see the point of the myth as pointing out that this dialect of SAE has evolved in a way that is slightly different from General American English over the last few centuries. But to point out that it retains features of EME is to imply that Standard American English does not retain any of its features. Simply put, Standard American English and Southern American English have both retained a number of elements of EME--many of these elements are the same, a few are not. If someone would like to fix the weasel words or simply remove the sentence altogether, be my guest! JordeeBec 19:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Dubya

George W. Bush speaks Southern American English, doesn't he? If so, let's add him in that paragraph where the article mentions US presidents that spoke SAE. Clinevol98 19:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Barely. He misspeaks English with a slight Texas drawl... not what I'd call Southern English. ;-> Dubc0724 20:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It always sounds to me like his accent is forced. His pedigree is New England blueblood, and he was born somewhere up there. Additionally, his entire family was from there, and his parents did not have Southern accents. It could be acquired during his youth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.221.221 (talk • contribs) 11:27, July 20, 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Dubya was born in New Haven, Connecticut, although he never mentions it and it's conspicuously absent from his official biography on the White House website. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

He moved to Midland, Texas when he was 6, so I doubt he took much of his accent from New England. The fact that you don't like him doesn't change the fact that he speaks with an accent which can generally be described as Southern American English. --209.30.58.229 06:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say otherwise: I'm just saying that he's keen to hide his Yankee roots. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

That's quite an assertion for someone who isn't mentioning sources, Josiah. How can he "hide" his place of birth when it's a matter of public record?

My own father was born in NY in 1936, but his family moved to Florida when he was 2. He has always considered himself as from Florida, where he was raised, went to school, made friends, and where his family opened a business that lasted until his father died. Why should someone claim to be from an area that they remember so little of, or an area that had so little influence on their "world view" and upbringing? For all practicality, GWB was raised in Texas where he moved when he was two, (not six, 209.30.58.229 [3]). Arx Fortis 15:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Arx, I stand corrected; the White House bio does mention that Bush was born in New Haven (although it does not mention his schooling at Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass.). I didn't mean to suggest that Bush was falsifying his birthplace, just glossing over a biographical detail that doesn't jibe well with his Texan identity; but anyway, the question is moot. I don't remember where it was that I heard that Bush's official bio lacked mention of his birthplace — perhaps it once did, but it was subsequently added, or perhaps it was a campaign website and not the White House one. Anyway, I remember hearing some discussion of it as an odd footnote somewhere along the line, but I can't find a source now.

I didn't really mean to suggest anything more than the massaging of biography into simple, media-friendly narratives, which is hardly exclusive to Dubya: remember when Bill Clinton (born in Hope, Arkansas but raised in Hot Springs) was sold as "the man from Hope"? Anyway, this discussion is digressing from the point that's relevant to this page: should George W. Bush be included as an example of Southern American English? One aspect that should be considered is whether the accent of Midland, Texas (the primary influence on W.'s speech patterns, I assume) is best characterized as Southern or Western. I'm not a trained linguist, and don't know exactly where these boundaries are drawn, but to my (Virginia-born) ear a West Texas accent isn't the best example of Southern American English. However, your mileage may vary. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

This is why Wikipedia prohibits original research. It doesn't matter how good anyone's ear for regional accents is; if there's not a reliable source (in this case, a linguistic one) confirming that his accent is Southern, he should be left off the page. The same goes, incidentally, for everyone else listed here. User:Angr 17:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Baltimorese

If the Philadelphia accent is really close to New Jersey / New York as stated by the wiki link, then surely Baltimore natives do not speak it. (I'm a native.) Wikiwikiwikiwikiwikiwiki 16:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm an expert

I'm from Kentucky. GangstaEB~(penguin logs) 00:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Reworked Phonology and Grammar

I added some sub-sections under Grammar and Phonology because both blocks were simply to massive, and there was already a distinction being made between Older and Newer SAE. For readability's sake, I also changed the way the grammar examples were cited. Good or bad? --Sept. 27th

Glottal/Silent T

I'm curious as to whether any other Southerner's pronounce the "t"s in words like "milton", "fighting", "fulton", and other such words as little more than some sort of glottal stop before the proceeding vowel, and also as to whether this phenomenon occurs elsewhere. I know it's quite common in the Peidmont region of Georgia amongst non-yankee speakers, if anything. Should this be added to the pronunciation section?

• In Gulf Coastal Mississippi, we always pronounce the t's in those words, so they sound like what I assume is normal such as "mill-ton", "fight-ing" or "fuhl-ton".--CJ 07:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• I was born in the South Carolina Piedmont and raised in Georgia Piedmont, and agree with the original assertion. Its quite common among native speakers in these areas (including myself) to pronounce these "t"s very softly, as a glottal stop.

• Ditto to the guy above me; I'm from the North Carolina Piedmont. I barely pronounce the t's in "George S. Patton." They're there, but I don't enunciate them at all and it sounds strange to do so. Also, what's with the "Doesn't cite sources" bit? What sources does one need besides a native speaker?

• I've never EVER heard anyone but non-natives use "Coke," "cola," "soda," "pop," "Pepsi-Cola" or anything but "soft drinks" to describe soft drinks, unless they were specifically referring to "Coke."

Lol, you haven't been around, have you? Jerr