Talk:Robert Prechter

"Questionable Relevance"?

The "questionable relevance" paragraph regarding Elliott's theory seems out of place on a biographical page, especially because there is an "Elliott wave principle" page. Also, the "afterthought" and "market timing… discredited" comments do not communicate a NPOV. --Rgfolsom 18:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Questionable Relevance (etc.) still unexplained

The edits from Smallbones removed relevant biographical information with no explanation, and added back irrelevant and mistaken criticisms without explaining exactly what "better" means. Once more: the first paragraph under "Criticism" speaks to the Elliott wave principle, and is flagrantly not from a NPOV. As for the Criticism paragraph on Prechter himself, he published a best-selling book as recently as 2002-2003. Labels like "afterthought" are more flagrant non-NPOV.

It's also noteworthy that Smallbones had not contributed to this article before getting into an editing dispute with me regarding the Socionomics page, a fact will speak for itself in any coming requests for mediation.

Rgfolsom 23:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

For the Record

For the record, Smallbones has not tried to show familiarity with the subject matter or establish notability, but took an article I've been working on recently and reverted it to a stub. Robert Prechter's position as a public person more than meets the criterion set out in Wikipedia:Notability (people), and I'll soon be adding lots more references that show this. Smallbones appears to pay no regard to Wikipedia's policy regarding etiquette, consensus building, reverts, and -- in previous changes to Prechter's bio -- the policy on biased or malicious content.

Rgfolsom 22:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation

Material in this article is a WP:COPYVIO from http://www.elliottwave.com/info/prechter_bio.aspx, and does not appear to meet WP:BIO. —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 02:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Deletion policy regarding lag times calls for about a week before taking a page down. Editor 141.156.240.102 summarily removed Prechter's bio without so much as identifying what part of the article may be in copyright violation, and also failed to list the article on Wikipedia:Copyright_problems. Shooting first and asking questions later is hardly cordial and respectful to other editors.

Rgfolsom 16:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I too think that a complete deletion of the article was too hurried and uncalled for. Prechter IS NOTABLE, but in many cases for all the wrong reasons. For example, I believe that he was on the front page of the Wall Street Journal in an article that showed his meteoric rise and fall as a stock prognosticator (if anybody can find the article, I'd be obliged). As for which part of the Wikipedia article was a copyright violation, I'd say all of it except for the tiny part at the end entitled criticisms (which was contantly being removed or watered down). As a comparison the Victor Niederhoffer article had a less egregious, but similar problem a while ago and has been completely re-written since.Smallbones 21:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Just for reference the following is directly copied from the above site, and seems to be word-for-word what we had here.

"Biography of Robert R. Prechter, Jr.

Robert R. Prechter, Jr., CMT, began his professional career in 1975 as a Technical Market Specialist with the Merrill Lynch Market Analysis Department in New York. He has been publishing The Elliott Wave Theorist, a monthly forecasting publication, since 1979. Currently he is president of Elliott Wave International, which publishes analysis of global stock, bond, currency, metals and energy markets. He is also Executive Director of the Socionomic Institute, a research group. Mr. Prechter has won numerous awards for market timing, including the United States Trading Championship, and in 1989 was awarded the “Guru of the Decade’’ title by Financial News Network (now CNBC). He has been named ``one of the premier timers in stock market history’’ by Timer Digest, ``the champion market forecaster’’ by Fortune magazine, ``the world leader in Elliott Wave interpretation’’ by The Securities Institute, and ``the nation’s foremost proponent of the Elliott Wave method of forecasting’’ by The New York Times.

Mr. Prechter is author, co-author and/or editor of 13 books, including Elliott Wave Principle – Key to Market Behavior (1978), R.N. Elliott’s Masterworks (1980), The Wave Principle of Human Social Behavior and the New Science of Socionomics (1999), Conquer the Crash (2002), and Pioneering Studies in Socionomics (2003).

Since 1979, when he first addressed the subject, Bob has been exploring socionomics, the study and prediction of social trends in light of the Wave Principle and its implications for the social sciences. In 1999 created the Socionomics Institute, of which he is Executive Director. The institute is an independent think-tank whose mission is to develop socionomics as an academic discipline and to promote its commercial application. Recently, Mr. Prechter has made presentations on his socionomic theory to MIT, the London School of Economics and academic conferences.

In 2004, the Socionomics Foundation, a 501(c)3 non-profit organization, was created to provide education and fund scholarly investigation into socionomic theory.

Mr. Prechter graduated from Yale University in 1971 with a degree in psychology. He served as the 21st president of the Market Technicians Association, and is a member of Mensa, Intertel, The Shakespeare Fellowship and the Shakespeare Oxford Society."

I made several edits and small contributions to Prechter's bio in recent weeks -- nothing I included was in violation of Wikipedia policy, copyright or otherwise. Smallbones implies otherwise, and he'll have the opportunity to back up what he says if I succeed in getting the page and its posting history undeleted. As for watered down criticism, I'll plead guilty once Wikipedia defines "watered down" as "removing a biased point of view."

Rgfolsom 22:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Restore

OK. I have restored a set of edits which I hope are not copyvios. Admins please note:

• all versions from 2006-11-07 t 02:27:23 back to 2006-07-07 t 06:28:00 appear to be substantially the copyvio from elliottwave.com note above
• all versions from 2006-05-19 t 20:05:06 back to 2006-01-03 t 18:54:16 appear to be a copyvio from http://books.global-investor.com/pages/gurus.htm?PerIndex=1827&ginPtrCode=00000&identifier=

-- RHaworth 02:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Quote not in article

The quotation you've included is not in the WSJ article you cite -- I've got a copy in front of me. What's more, the words have an obvious slant against Prechter and thus is completely out of place in the lead section. This is the bio of a living person, Smallbones -- ignoring me is one thing, but ignoring Wikipedia policy in this case may not be nearly as cost-free.

Rgfolsom 18:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's quite interesting that you have the article in front of you.

please see http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/wsj/access/4338645.html?dids=4338645:4338645&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Aug+19%2C+1993&author=Power%2C+William&pub=Wall+Street+Journal&edition=Eastern+edition&startpage=A4&type=1995_1984&desc=Robert+Prechter+sees+his+3600+on+the+Dow--But+6+years+late

That's what the article said whether you like it or not. there's a slew of articles of a similar nature, and not just in the WSJ - Business Week, Fortune, etc.

I'll see if I can put them in, and everybody can see whether it's you or I who have the slant.

Smallbones 19:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I do have the article in front of me and the quote you posted is not in it. When you get a quote from the Wall Street Journal, then you cite the WSJ as your source. When you get an article summary from Proquest, you cite Proquest as the source and include the link. This is as basic as high school composition; Wikipedia's Manual of Style spells it out plainly.

And let's do talk about what's interesting. You didn't deny that the WSJ piece (or least your Proquest summary) is negative, and you do assure me that you want to post a slew of similar articles so that readers will see who has the slant. In other words, you're making it about me, Smallbones. You shouldn't do that. I politely remind you again that this is the bio of a living person. Readers don't come here to learn if you or I have a slant. Wikipedia has explicit warnings about grinding an axe on a page like this.

Prechter has been a public figure for more than 25 years -- by now the number of media clippings about him probably runs well into the thousands, and my guess is that the sum of the positive clippings still strongly outweighs the negative. Obviously there's a place on the page for "Criticism," and Wikipedia has guidelines to that end. But you're publicly suggesting that you intend to stack the deck to the negative side. That's just not a good idea.

Rgfolsom 20:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You've obviously abandoned any pretense of NPOV (and too many other Wikipedia policies to list). You typed in the abuse so quickly that some of it doesn't even make sense. If the administrators don't act quickly to stop your disruptive editing, I'll be making a request for arbitration.

Rgfolsom 23:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's everyone calm down and assume good faith in one another. There is no reason we can't settle this minor dispute in a mutually satisfactory manner. Gamaliel 23:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Gamaliel, I'm glad you've spoken up. Apologies for my heated tone. I didn't become a contributor to Wikipedia in order to carry in disputes on talk pages, yet this is where most of my time and words have gone -- and mostly to argue on behalf of Wikipedia policies, as best as I can understand them. I have read the assume good faith article. Look at Talk:Socionomics and you'll see how diligently I tried to meet Smallbones' demands, because I was assuming good faith. It got me nowhere.

You give constructive advice on how to properly cite sources. With Smallbones' comment in mind about posting a "slew of articles of a similar nature," can I assume that you looked closely at the citations he posted today on Prechter's page? May I also respectfully get your opinion on whether a NPOV would include seven references to Prechter's failed forecasts in the very first paragraph of his bio, vs. zero mention his successes?

I very much hope that you'll continue to weigh in on this page; I want collaboration that leads to good articles, not another second of revert wars and talk page disputes. Thanks again for trying to help.

Rgfolsom 00:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Robert Folsom is a financial writer and editor for Elliott Wave International, the largest independent provider of technical analysis in the world. He has covered politics, popular culture, economics and the financial markets for 16 years, and today writes EWI's popular Market Watch column. Robert earned his degree in political science from Columbia University in 1985. (And Elliott Wave International is owned by Robert Prechter, who pays Folsom's salry. Added by Smallbones 18:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC))

How to put the documented truth in here?

from The Wall Street Journal, August 19, 1993

In early 1987, the "Elliott Wave" theorist from Georgia drew wide attention for his market forecasts. There he was on the cover of Barron's: "3600 on the Dow? That, Says Bob Prechter, Is Where We're Going." It was a bold prediction at a time when the Dow industrial average was barely at 2000.

Unfortunately, the Dow never got within 800 points of the target before the market crashed in October. To compound things, Mr. Prechter then turned into a superbear, causing his followers to miss rally after rally in subsequent years. The result: Mr. Prechter went from stock-market hero to punchline of in-crowd jokes.

Prechter is just terrible at predicting the stock market. It's not me that's saying this it is The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Business Week, and Esquire among others. I don't see why the 9 citations I put in should be reduced to 2. They were the only cites from major publications in this article.

Please do not accuse me of edit-warring on this page - I have only made 4 edits here and added a lot of information, and removed little if anything. All of my edits were reverted, taking out a lot of information.

Before I edited this page, it was essentially taken word-for-word directly from Prechter's web site (see above for details).

So please answer this question. If a user sees one of the world's worst stock pickers advertising on Wikipedia, how is he supposed to edit the article to put in the documented truth? Smallbones 16:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And Amen to that, Smallbones. I quite agree, as does Timer Digest. Perhaps "everyone is wrong" on this though hehehe. Punanimal 08:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Smallbones, you continue to insert flagrantly opinionated criticisms into the lead section of this biography, such as "Mr. Prechter went from stock-market hero to punchline of in-crowd jokes." This violates Wikipedia's policies regarding POV, bias, and undue weight. What's more, the article you cut and pasted from was already duly noted in the criticism section, which is where it belongs. Rgfolsom 19:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Vanispamcruftisement?

Will someone please remove the blatant advertising from the citations?

Elliott Wave International, P.O. Box 1618 Gainesville Georgia 30503

and

New Classics Library, 1996/2004, P.O. Box 1618 Gainesville Georgia 30503

I also have a real conflict of interest problem with the self-published book and periodical references ("New Classics Library" and "Elliott Wave International") ... that's just Robert Prechter talking about himself and his theories.

On a final note, you need an account to view the external reference citation ...

1. ^ New York Times, Book Review, Best Sellers List, 11 August 2002.

... that link violates Wiki guidelines and should be removed per Wikipedia:External links#Sites requiring registration.

Since the article is currently protected, would some Administrator please address these issues, i.e., make the appropriate changes? —72.75.93.131 (talk · contribs) 12:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the addresses from the references used in the article, can one of the editors please suppli ISBN numbers for the books and I'll correct the references. Gnangarra 04:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing the publisher's location is in Template:Cite book, and supported by the top style guides (Chicago, MLA). As for self-publishing, the references meet Wikipedia's guidelines: "Self-published material, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about the author, so long as there is no reasonable doubt who wrote the material, and so long as it is... relevant to the self-publisher's notability." Finally, my talk page includes an exchange I had with an administrator regarding the NYT external link and other citations -- this person's comment was "nice work." Rgfolsom 19:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected

Per request, I've unprotected this article--hopefully, you've all sorted out your issues. If not, I have it watchlisted and will reprotect at the first sign of an edit war. AmiDaniel (talk) 07:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Administrators please note

The page protection for the Prechter bio was put in place at the request of the mediator who is working with Smallbones and me in a related dispute. On Nov. 17, this mediator told both of us to cease and desist, and since that time I have made no comments on Talk:Robert Prechter.

But Smallbones not only failed to heed the mediator's request, he has now used my silence on Talk:Robert Prechter as a pretext to get the page protection removed. If this doesn't amount to bad faith and disruptive editing, then those phrases are meaningless. I welcome any guidance from administrators on these issues. Rgfolsom 19:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not accuse me of bad faith.

Please do not remove a relevant quote taken from the front page of the Wall Street Journal or any other material just because you do not like the quote. You need to explain why you don't like the quote. If the WSJ wrote it, it is not POV to insert it in here and say "the WSJ wrote..."

Please do not re-insert the address along with the publisher's name that was removed by 2 other editors (not me) because they considered it advertising.

Please do address the concerns expressed by Marcika that you work for Prechter, Elliott Wave International and/or the Socionomics Institute/Foundation and thus have a conflict of interest Smallbones 21:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)