Talk:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand

Conspiracy theories

There have recently been extensive additions to this article detailing not only the original assasination plot but alleged subsequent conspiracies by Serbia, France and even Montenegro. There are no supporting citations and much of the new material seems to be classic "Balkan conspiracy" conjecture. The result has been to swamp the original fairly factual account of the assasination, its background and implications with dubious suppositions presented as fact. Perhaps the article could be edited into entirely separate historic account and conspiracy theory sections.

Sewn Into Uniform

I've seen a few times the story that the Duke's wounds perhaps would have been treatable had he not been sewn into his uniform (as dictated by current fashion), thus slowing doctors' efforts to save him. This story was cited from "Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts" on one site. Is this really true? Felosele 27 June 2006

I don't think that it is. I have seen the actual uniform on display in the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna. It is torn on one side of the chest - about where his medals would have been, but there are no signs that it was sewn tight or that he had to be cut out of it. Of course he may have been wearing a corset - that was a fashion of the time for corpulent wearers of tight military uniforms and that would have delayed medical treatment.

Assassination

I've heard from several sources that the bomb, or dynamite, was actually thrown inside the archduke's cart, but that he threw it out himself. And I also heard the guy who killed them was in a bar, drunk. Did anybody else, too? Red Star

My AP history teacher showed us a movie from the history channel, which said the guy who threw the grenade forgot that grenades have a delay and the archduke hit the grenade away when he saw it fall in the car.

Count Harrach, and many others including the bomb thrower himself make it clear that the Kragujevac bomb bounced off the folded back hood of the car in which Franz-Ferdinand road and then landed in the street its timed detonator going off as the next vehicle passed. The confusion comes from a New York Times article that was in error and one witness with a bad view. These bombs were armed by banging the detonator against a hard object such as the light poll used in this case. It appears the detonator cap seperated from the bomb in midflight and the cap scratched the Arch-Duchess' cheek as it passed. Franz-Ferdinand it seems raised his hand to try to block the detonator cap but missed.

Michael Balfour on the assassination

A note on the bottom of page 344 of Michael Balfour's book, "The Kaiser and his Times," Houghton Mifflin (1964) states:

"The chief instigator of the assassination was almost certainly the Serb director of Military Intelligence, in his private capacity as head of the secret society 'The Black Hand'. The Russian Miltary Attache at Belgrade equally certainly was in the secret. So was the Serb Prime Minister, Pasic who, although frightened of what war would mean for Serbia, was even more frightened of the 'Black Hand'. Pasic did send a warning to Vienna but by the time it had passed through several intermediaries, it became so muffled as to be disregarded."

[User: Domenico Rosa, 29 June 2006]

Leo Valiani on Franz Ferdinand

The Italian historian Leo Valiani was born in 1909 in Fiume, which was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Valiani wrote the following in "The End of Austria-Hungary," Alfred A. Knopf, New York (1973) pp 9-10 [translation of: "La Dissoluzione dell'Austria-Ungheria," Casa Editrice Il Saggiatore, Milano (1966) pp 19-20]:

"Francis Ferdinand was a prince of absolutist inclinations, but he had certain intellectual gifts and undoubted moral earnestness. One of his projects--though because of his impatient, suspicious, almost hysterical temperament, his commitment to it, and the methods by which he proposed to bring it about, often changed--was to consolidate the structure of the state and the authority and popularity of the Crown, on which he saw clearly that the fate of the dynasty depended, by abolishing, if not the dominance of the German Austrians, which he wished to maintain for military reasons, though he wanted to dimish it in the civil administration, certainly the far more burdensome sway of the Magyars over the Slav and Romanian nationalities which in 1848-49 had saved the dynasty in armed combat with the Hungarian revolution. Baron Margutti, Francis Joseph's aide-de-camp, was told by Francis Ferdinand in 1895 and--with a remarkable consistency in view of the changes that took place in the intervening years--again in 1913, that the introduction of the dual system in 1867 had been disastrous and that, when he ascended the throne, he intended to re-establish strong central government: this objective, he believed, could be attained only by the simultaneous granting of far-reaching administrative autonomy to all the nationalities of the monarchy. In a letter of February 1, 1913, to Berchtold, the Foreign Minister, in which he gave his reasons for not wanting war with Serbia, the Archduke said that 'irredentism in our country ... will cease immediately if our Slavs are given a comfortable, fair and good life' instead of being trampled on (as they were being trampled on by the Hungarians). It must have been this which caused Berchtold, in a character sketch of Francis Ferdinand written ten years after his death, to say that, if he had succeeded to the throne, he would have tried to replace the dual system by a supranational federation."

[User: Domenico Rosa, 29 June 2006]

Security

I've heard security was a major issue here--the Austrio-Hungarian government didn't provide much, if any, and the Bosnians of course didn't care to provide it. If anyone knows more than I do it would be a good to mention in the article.

Title

I think this should be called Assassination of Franz Ferdinand, or Franz Ferdinand Assassination. This is a more natural title, and the only other pages I can find on specific assassinations are John F. Kennedy assassination and Robert F. Kennedy assassination. There may well be/have been other assassinations in Sarajevo, especially given its recent history. --Townmouse 23:19, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The event is commonly known in history as the Assassination in Sarajevo. Other encyclopedias also call it that. The naming convention is to use the most common name, which migh not necessarily be the most logical, accurate or consistent one. Redirects from those should of course be provided. I'll move the article back here. Zocky 01:22, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It would be interesting to find out what the event is called around the world. I had certainly never heard of it as the Assassination in Sarajevo before looking it up on Wikipedia today. I was astonished to read references on different pages saying that this was the common term. I've always heard it called The Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and could not have said for sure which city it occurred in. Now I'm not proud of not knowing which city it had happened in, but I wonder if other people may be the same. - Russell Brown 09:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that word means what you think it means

Quoth the article:

The authorities thought the imprisonment would be arbitrary, until one member, Danilo Ilić, lost his patience and told the authorities everything, including the fact that the guns were supplied by the Serb government.

I'm not sure what "arbitrary" is supposed to mean here. Certainly the people doing the arresting thought they had the right people. Does it mean that the authorities thought they'd have to hold the suspects indefinitely? --Jfruh 28 June 2005 06:53 (UTC)

Saved/tried to save from lynching

OK, a not-logged-in user keeps changing the phrase "saved from lynching" to "tried to save from lynching" in a photo caption. If Princip had been lynched, he would have been killed, yes? Since he wasn't killed by the mob, he was successfully saved. I guess maybe the individual in question didn't necessarily save him, but the phrase "tried to save" definitely implies that he was killed. --Jfruh 8 July 2005 14:25 (UTC)

This picture was at one time believed to show Princip's arrest. It was later confirmed that it actually depicted the arrest of a German passerby who tried to save Princip from being lynched.

This is news to me! Can we please have a link to a credible source making this claim?67.124.172.254 20:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Relics and Chaos Theory

How is Chaos Theory: a) related the "Relics" of the assassination, and b) relevant at all? Does this simple chain of events meet the criteria for a chaotic system at all, let alone represent one of the "finest examaples?"

Members of the parade

I added a description of the members of the motorcade, who was with who and in which car. Marcos2006 13:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

'Comitive' - what?

What is this word "comitive", as used in the sentence starting

"Around 10:00 Ferdinand and his comitive left the Philipovic army camp, ..."

If talking about the assassin then 'comitiva' might work, but this is about Ferdinand. And I don't think 'committee' is quite right either. I can't find this word anywhere. Shenme 22:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Deleted paragraph

The former last paragraph - what isn't wrong (not Chaos Theory; causes of WWI much more complex) or speculation (Cold War) here is obvious, it could be said about most such events that a chain of coincidences led to them. And it doesn't belong in the Relics section. Clearly a somewhat random addition. flux.books 15:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It may also be worth noting that the assassination was one of the finest examples of Chaos Theory in action. The assassination was, it could be said, caused by Ferdinand's driver taking a wrong turn. This in turn gave the assassin a second chance to carry out the assassination, which led to the outbreak of World War One, which caused 20 million deaths. World War One set the stage for World War Two to start two decades later, which in turn caused another sixty million deaths and caused the Cold War - which easily could have destroyed humanity had it become a hot war. These events shaped the modern world, and will indeed shape human history in the centuries to come.

July Ultimatum

The section labelled 'Consequences' makes references to a 'July Ultimatum' set by Austria to Serbia in revenge for the assassination, and mentions that Serbia accepted all but one of the terms, which set off World War I. However, those terms are never described, giving the section a feeling of incompleteness. There is a link to the July Ultimatum article, but shouldn't at least a synopsis be published here for readers' benefit?

Only point #8 was completely acceded to. Convincing the world that they had acceded to almost all of the points was a propaganda coup and is perpetuated in text books today, but put the ultimatum and the response side by side and you will see this was trickery or simply read the Austrian critique.

gun

I had recently seen on a documentary regarding the assassination and it was stated that the gun's that were supplied to the assassins were made by Browning.

conflicting accounts...

on this page:

As all of the conspirators were under age, they were sentenced to prison rather than execution (except for the older Danilo Ilić, who was hanged).

on the danilo ilic page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_Ili%C4%87):

Danilo Ilic, Veljko Cubrilovic and Misko Jovanovic, who helped the assassins kill the royal couple, were executed on 3rd February, 1915.

• • doesn't that conflict?

Also, it states in the Ilic article that Ilic was arrested after Princip ratted him out, yet on this page it states that Ilic ratted everyone out..?

1. Misko Jovanovic and Veljko Cubrilovic were not amongst the seven lying in wait for the royals (their roll was in transport and storing weapons) and so they are often not counted.

2. The police arrested Cabrinovic and Principe on the spot, and immediately began rounding up everyone these two had been seen with including Ilic (Principe was living with him). Ilic did give some true information to the authorities but mixed it with lies as did all of those arrested who knew anything; if you read the trial transcripts you'll see Ilic had trouble keeping all his stories straight. Ilic has been demonized by Serbs looking to make Principe a hero. In reality, Ilic knew the most about the conspiracy and told the least, keeping his contacts with the Serbian Military (Colonels Dimitrievic and Popovic) secret to his death, and telling nothing to the authorities about the planning meeting in Tolouse, France and so on.

Failed GA nomination

This article, although detailed, fails WP:V and WP:NPOV. All good articles should have line citations. Those that discuss conspiracy theories usually need particularly heavy referencing. This presents conspiracy theories as fact without giving the reader any basis for evaluating the claims. Durova 16:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy material

Could the contributor who has added extensive material relating to French, Montenegran and Russian conspiracies over the last month please provide supporting references and citations.

I concur; the citation of a French diplomatic document does not count as a published source. Ih fact the entire section, with its unsourced claims, should be on the talk page until it is. Septentrionalis 05:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The Broader Conspiracy and Cover-up

Cover-up by Serbia

After allowing the murders to take place, the Serbian Civilian Government worked to cover up the full extent of the plot. This including denying it had conducted an investigation, denying it knew about the plot and providing safe haven to the conspirators (many conspirators were eventually arrested on other charges, but none were charged with the crimes of Sarajevo), refusing to cooperate with the Austro-Hungarian investigation, and continuing to keep known conspirators on the government payroll. The government briefly arrested Major Tankosic, but quickly released him and sent him back to his unit. Rade Malobabic was arrested but released on the request of Colonel Dimitrievic and Malobabic was given a commission operating a military supply store.

The Cover-up by Montenegro and France

Mohamed Mehmedbasic escaped the Austro-Hungarian-police dragnet into Montenegro, where he bragged in a café about his role in Sarajevo and was therefore arrested by the Montenegrin police. Montenegro and Austria-Hungary had a reciprocal extradition treaty with regards to individuals who attack a sovereign of the state or members of his family, and so Montenegro was bound to arrest and turn-over Mehmedbasic.

Mehmedbasic told all to the Montenegrin authorities, including about the Tolouse planning meeting in January 1914. The Montenegrin Foreign Minister called in the French Ambassador and informed him of the details and then Montenegrin authorities illegally allowed Mehmedbasic to escape to Serbia where he joined with Tankosic’s unit. France and Montenegro kept the results of the interrogation a secret until part of it was divulged when the cable of the French Ambassador back to Paris was published after the war. Had Mehmedbasic been turned over to Austro-Hungarian authorities another avenue of investigation would have opened up outside of Serbia, including the rounding up of Paul Bastaic, Mustafa Golubic, and Vladimir Gacinovic. With them in custody, Danilo Ilic could have been confronted with taking orders from Belgrade and perhaps could have been forced to give up Apis; but France and Montenegro elected instead to obstruct the investigation.

(“Documents Diplomatiques Francais III Serie 1911-14, 3”, X Doc. 537 states that the January meeting took place in “Tours”, not Tolouse with the implication that this is the reason the Sûreté Générale found nothing when it investigated. The self-serving italics notwithstanding, with Mehmedbasic imprisoned on other charges in French controlled territory in 1916 and 1917, France elected not to perform its legal duty to investigate and arrest the conspirators giving the conspiracy France’s seal of approval.)

The Cover-up by Serbia and France

On June 26, 1917, in French occupied Salonika, Serbia executed Colonels Apis and Ljubomir Vulovic and Masterspy Rade Malobabic. Before their execution, these three men had confessed to their own involvement in and details of the conspiracy to assassinate Franz-Ferdinand including fingering the Russian Military attaché and Serbia’s top military officer. Apis, as mentioned earlier, made a written confession to the Serbian Court. The confession was suppressed by Serbia until its capture by the Axis during World War II. Vulovic made his statement at court-martial, the transcripts of which were briefly published and then pulled back and then published again after World War II. Malobabic made his statement to a priest hired by Serbia to report what he said. This too was kept secret. The executions were controversial at Entente capitals. To stifle criticism of the executions, Prime Minister Pasic put it this way to his embassy in Britain: “The officers in the Salonika affair had to be condemned, Vulovic and Malobabic were ordinary criminals (sic), and Dimitrijevic besides everything else admitted he had ordered Franz Ferdinand to be killed. And now who could reprieve them?” [from Black Hand on Trial, Salonika 1917 page 392]

In 1916, Serbia’s government in exile arrested Apis and many of his fellow conspirators. The arrests were politically motivated as Prince Regent Alexandar and Prime Minister Pasic eliminated a powerful rival. The arrests were also diplomatically motivated. Austria-Hungary was seeking a secret and separate peace with France and offered the return of Serbia (now occupied by Austria-Hungary and her allies) on condition that those behind Sarajevo would be punished. Serbia, without territory of its own, sent some of the accused to French Prisons and others were put into a concentration camp and an officers’ prison on the French controlled Salonika front. Peace talks floundered, but the prisoners were brought to trial nevertheless on various false charges, none of which could be made to stick even with a packed court and denial of choice of counsel and witnesses. Finally in mid-trial a new charge of attempting to kill Regent Aleksandar was brought and though this charge was false too (the verdicts were overturned posthumously) the defendants were found guilty and many received a death sentence. Responsibility for the murder of these key witnesses rests not only on Serbia, but on the occupying authority and willing jailor and transporter of the accused, France.

Russian Facilitation, Foreknowledge and Cover-up

A salient point in Apis’ confession was that Russian Military Attaché to Belgrade Artamonov provided the funds required for The Outrage, and promised Russia’s protection from Austria-Hungary. This facilitation was broadly corroborated by Artamonov’s assistant, Alexander Werchovsky, a captain at the time of The Outrage to Louis Trydar-Burzinski, after which Werchovsky stopped talking. Artamonov denied his involvement saying whatever payments he made to Apis were for other work.

There is no evidence of advanced approval of The Outrage by Czar Nicholas II and it would seem out of character for him to authorize a royal assassination.

Russia helped to cover-up the conspiracy primarily through a telegram that a) advised Serbia to reject those terms of Austria-Hungary’s letter that infringed on Serbia’s sovereignty, and b) promised Russian diplomatic and military support and c) by denying its own involvement including a present day claim (“Rossiiskaia Kontrrazvedka I Tainaia Serbskaia Organizatsii ‘Chernaia Ruka’") that Russia had not one single agent in Serbia at the time of the Sarajevo assassinations.

Terrorism?

By what logic were the perpetrators "terrorists"? Surely this was not an attempt to instill fear in a civilian population. At worst it was an act of armed insurrection with a narrow political aim.

If I remember right, the Black Hand were a terrorist organisation. It's more like if Osama tried to kill Karzai himself — he would be a terrorist, but not simply because he tried to pull off the assassination Nyttend 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

But again, it begs the question. What grounds does anyone have to call the perpetrators "terrorists"? If the act of assassination by itself is not sufficient for a person or group to be branded a "terrorist", then what justification does anyone have for attributing that label in this case? Austria-Hungary was not a democracy by any stretch of the imagination, and had annexed Bosnia only six years earlier. This was essentially insurgency against a despotic regime, and not an attempt to terrorize a civilian population.

Yes, i fully agree that perpetrators cannot be called terrorists.

If we closely look to definition of terrorism - "Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political, nationalist, or religious goals." - we cannot find any elements to describe Princip and other perpetrators terrorists. It was an act against Austrian opressive regime, not against civilians by any means. I would like that this part regarding terrorism should be corrected! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.200.89.5 (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Serbian "Union or Death"

The Black Hand was part of the Serbian Union ord Death Is an example that shows this. World known hisotrian Laurence Lafore also states this in his well repsected book "The Long Fuse". The "Union ord Death" was a Serbian nationalistic party that created smaller organizations such as the Black Hand. There is a lot of POV on this article from some Serbians trying to make it seem as if it wasn't done by their people. Vseferović 21:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Britannica even states this in their encyclopedia articles. Black Hand is part of "Union or Death"