Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 September 29
I am asking for to overturn the close to a no Consensus close based on AfD participation and based on a procedurally flawed nomination. The closer discounted ivotes based on the fact that the some participants were emotional (one involved a PA) and I acknowledge that the keep participants did not make policy and guideline based arguments. I did ask the AfD closer to reconsider. My experience is that the closer is flippant when editors have issues with their closures. 1,2, 3. I remember a particularly egregious close at DRV and this closer simply ignored the many editors who took issue with their close.
These lists fits exactly into our guideline for lists on WP:LISTCRITERIA and if we look at straight keep/delete opinion 8 (including nominator) favored deletion and 6 favored keeping (yes I know the policy on counting). A no-consensus close does not prohibit a renomination. An example of our consensus procedure will be seen in this DRV: If we had the same result of delete/keep ivotes here this DRV will be a no-consensus and it will result in maintaining the deletion of these four lists.
The second part of my rationale involves a flawed procedure. The nominator added other completely unrelated lists to this AfD nomination after there was a delete participant. List of oldest living members of the Lok Sabha, List of oldest living members of the Rajya Sabha were added after debate started. You can see the nominator added the unrelated lists after the AfD began - this is the original nom with two US related deletions. After the first delete ivote the nominator added unrelated Indian Politician lists. Lightburst (talk) 17:56, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Overturn/struck nominator self-!vote/ to no-consensus and relist each list unrelated article separately. Lightburst (talk) 17:56, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- I also ask to undelete these lists for the DRV participants. Lightburst (talk) 18:04, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Endorse The closer did not discount opinions because some participants appeared to be emotional -- their advocacy did not include policy-based arguments (as you say yourself), and what it did contain was attacks. So when the portion of !votes thus referred to is discounted, what remains is a consensus to delete. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. Procedurally - as an AfD participant I was not aware that the Indian list were added. Perhaps they should be split out. We cannot know if participants all understood that there were four lists. I know how these DRVs go but we should also be concerned with the procedure of slipping in unrelated deletions. Lightburst (talk) 18:45, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Endorse the closer discounted "arguments" like this which just consist of insulting people who disagree with them. Apart from the fact that personal attacks are strongly discouraged here, comments like this simply aren't valid arguments. The count of six people supporting keeping includes several comments which did not advance a coherent rationale, such as "STOP DELETING EVERYTHING IN SIGHT!", and it would have been entirely legitimate for the closer to discount or downweight them. The other articles this was nominated with are all closely related and nobody in the discussion drew a distinction between them. Hut 8.5 18:36, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Right WP:CIR - It is too bad a person needs about a year of experience to learn all the ins and outs and acronyms here. I myself had many acronyms hurled at me when I started, and I pleaded for mercy which only got more acronyms. I tend to not penalize people for not understanding how the sausage is made. Lightburst (talk) 18:51, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. I was the nominator, and I did add two more closely related lists to the discussion 5 hours after the original nomination, and after one editor had already commented. As Lightburst linked above, I explicitly called this out in a note in the discussion, so nobody who participated after that time should have been surprised that there were four pages being discussed. The editor who had already !voted (Dronebogus), had recently participated in a number of similar discussions and I felt confident that they wouldn't object to my additions. If I was mistaken, I will apologize to Dronebogus for my presumption. pburka (talk) 19:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Relist A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_prime_ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_age where opponents of deletion of a similar page about US Presidents were able to more effectively dispute the wrong-headed arguments for deletion (specifically a cramped reading of Wikipedia policies).
- The discussion could have been better, but it was sufficiently thorough. Relisting would very likely be more of the same. — Alalch Emis (talk) 20:21, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- I went out of my way to find sources that disputed others' contentions that this article was not encyclopedic. It does not look like you took that into consideration when the article was deleted; instead the deleter said the opposition was "personal attacks". I did complain that the rules seemed arbitrary and nonsensical, but I would hardly describe that as a personal attack, just an expression of frustration that a page I liked to look at was being deleted and it was not clear how I could stop it. Please reconsider deletion.