Talk:Kamma (caste)
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Clarification
- If surname is an indicator, Nayaks of Madhura could be Kaapus, Kammas, Velamas and Rajus.
- The books referred to did not contain explicit information. One was a book review carrying an unsubstantiated statement. The other book mentions that the kings were "allies" of Balija farmers in Madhura region". It did not mention that the Nayaks belonged to Balija community. It is well-known that farmers of many communities migrated to Tamil region and acquired lands. It was but natural that the kings felt affinity to fellow Telugu-speaking farmers.
- If anyone is aware of Madura temple inscription it may be mentioned with propoer citation.
- Page number of Edgar Thurston's statement in his book may be provided. The book is available on the web.
- Caste associations can make any kind of false claims such as the claim of some Kammas as descendents of Kakatiyas.
- There was no community by the name "Reddy" during Kakatiya reign. Reddy was a title given to many communities, especially Panta Kapus. Suravaram Pratapa Reddy's statements were wrong.
- Kota kings were Kammas as the Kamma clan of "Kota Kammas" with surnames Kota and Sagineni testify.
- Gampa Kammas and Gandikota Kammas were of the same branch. People who migrated to Guntur/Ongole region are called "Gampa Kammas". People who migrated to Tamil region are called "Gandikota Kammas".
- Is Eddula Nandi Reddy an authentic historian?Is the book available on the web?
The person (67.169.19.153) who raised the questions may please provide his identity.
the EVIDENCE FOR Relation between Sengunthars/ Kaikolars and Devadasis is best anectodal. and copying from newsletters less crditworthy than wiki is best not entertained. please do cooperate to maintain the authenticity and geninuness of the article.
Madurai & tanjavur Nayaks are Balijas/Kota Dynasity==
Pemmasani Viswanatha Nayudu proved his loyalty to Vitthala Raya by defeating his own father, Nagama Nayudu, who declared independence at Madurai, and later established the Nayak dynasty. The Pemmasani Kamma clan still has a Zamindari near Madurai called Neikarapatti. (See Nayaks of Madhura).''
Its clearly mentioned in Penukonda Charitra that Viswantha Nayakas Surname was Garikepati...and was a Balija ---Eddula Nandi Reddy...As did Edgar Thirston... ry And please search the Net on JSTOR etc Articles from Cambridge etc which are very clear about who were the rulers of Madurai,Tanjavore and Viajayanagar(Araveeti) [1],,,, [2] And if you want more please take a look at the inscriptions of Tirumla Nayaka in the Madurai Temple...
And recently the Madurai Balija Association celebrated the Birthday of Tirumala Naicker what happened to this so called Descendants Pemmasani Clan??? they did not seem to feature anywhere...
What is this Pemmasani Surname that has cropped up...??? You dont seem to post any kind of references nor Clear proof of wrong information posted on the articles...I suggest the admins to Make sure this article is cleaned UP...
And there is clear dipute on Musunuri nayaks as well... Surnam Pratapa Reddy calls him a Reddy/Kapu and there was never any documented evidence of them, being kamma..
So is the senction on Kota Kings and the Kota Koings mentioned here are either Bramhins or should have been the Parichedi Dynaisty or should have been the Telugu Cholas...
And your Gampa Kamma and Gandi Kota Kammas is even more questionable one seems to come from the other... Please clean up your article and post authentic information...
Vandalism
Rampant vandalism is happening. Someone should keep a watch and protect the stuff
Intercaste Marriages
What is the percentage of inter-caste and inter-religious marriages in the Kamma? If it is less than 10%, aren't they anti-social?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maaparty (talk • contribs) 13:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC).
Appeal
There are many Peda Kamma surnames and Zamindaris. It is not appropriate to name all of them. Enthusistic readers are appealed not to include more such names.
Important
This article appears to be nothing more than a fluff piece on a specific caste, with very little verifiable research.If this article isn't fixed, I may suggest it as an Article for Deletion.
Reply
The original article was edited to the present form after painstaking research. Suitable references were provided. Ambiguous points were clearly mentioned as debatable points. Suggestions (as that given below) based on envy and prejudice should not be taken seriously. The previous vandalism shows the magnitude of envy towards Kamma caste.
Note
Addition of "noteworthy" Kammas is a carryover from an AfD, and is laden with POV.
Reply
It is not a carryover. All the names mentioned belong to nationally well-known Kammas.
Kammas and Kambojas
As mentioned earlier, this section does have some logical points. I shall edit it to make it crisp. Any comments from the author?
Zamindaris
Only well-known Zamindaris are retained.
Heterozygosity/Kambojas
I agree to certain extent with the person who put the material on Heterozygosity/ and similarities with Kambhojas. Although the Kambhoja account was logical it needs historical evidence. Heterozygosity conclusion was not scientific. The publication in J. Biosci., is of questionable value. As per the discussion (see below), molecular genetic profiling will give right answers.
Statistical and anthropological analysis
Conclusions drawn by statistical and anthropological methods are less reliable. Molecular analysis such as genetic profiling of males by using Y-chromosome specific probes and females by mitochondrial DNA specific probes would give clear picture. So far, no one has done this kind of study on Telugu-speaking social groups. Clustering of Brahmins with Agharia tribe and Kammas with Chenchu tribe is a ridiculous conclusion which points towards faulty methodology. The material was accordingly deleted.
Notable Kammas
Inspite of appeals by many, wikipedia deleted "List of famous kammas". Let us have an agreement on whose names to keep in the main article. I think we can give only nationally and internationally known personalities such as N G Ranga, Nara Chandrababu Naidu, LV Prasad, Y Nayudamma etc. I deleted list of film actors from the main article. I hope the person who put the names would understand. I invite discussion.
Origins
There have been many theories of origin woven around the meanings of the word "Kamma" such as ear ring, letter, river Gundlakamma, place Kammamettu (present day Khammam) etc. These theories lack historical thread of logic. Hence, the input regarding "ear ring" theory was deleted.
Improvisation
The section is being extensively edited. Suggestions are welcome--Polumetla
The section is being modified and improvised. Suggestions are welcome.--Polumetla
Unless some significant additions are necessary, minor changes may please be avoided.
Appeal to Historians and Geneticists
It seems possible that there is a link between ancient Aryan tribes of Pahlavas/Kambhojas who might have ruled the ancient Palnadu/Kammanadu region of present day Guntur and Prakasam districts and Kamma community. Physical and phenotypic traits do point towards some vague relationship. However, DNA fingerprinting of Kammas and some well-known Kambhoja communities of Punjab, Iran, Rajasthan etc will resolve the issue. Historians also should scientifically look into this matter.
Vandalism
There seems to be no end to hate-driven vandalism. Mafia wars were painted as caste conflicts and blame put on a particular caste. Ranga is a classical example of how a street rowdy got respectability through politics. The episode of destruction of Kamma property was a shameful incident in post-independent India, which also reflects the mindset of a group of people driven by jealousy and who are clamouring for power in the name of caste. I hope this kind of hate-edits are not placed in Wiiki aricles. I appeal to one and all to keep a watch and protect from vandalism.
So is Paritala Ravindra or Devineni Nehru as a matter of fact. Mullu ni mullu to ne teeyali antaru... one was a land grabbing factionist the other was a street rowdy and money thursty goon.Do you know how much lang Mr devineni Nehru occupied in the Kolleru Lake???
Reply
Do not lose your cool. Wiki is not the place for foul & abusive language. If you disagree that Ranga was not a goonda and extortionist who used to forcibly collect money from local traders, you may say so. But do not abuse others.
Agree maybe you should check your language as well.I only responded to your posts... You stay away i too would stay away from making remarks on individuals..
Also agree that destuction of Kamma property was a shameful incident in post independent indias history... It is also a shameful incident that a Sitting MLA who was an Hunger strike was Assasinated or Murdered... well planned and coordianted by the govenrment by transferriing 110 Police officers... I dont how to classify these kind of politics...
Reply
If you see the past events, you would understand that the problem in Vijayawada started with a street goonda engaging in extortion from local traders and businessmen. Whatever happened later was a reaction to that. Similarly, the origin of the problem in Anantapur was the feudal hold of a community over poor people which was resented by Sriramulu joining Naxalites. Ravi continued to oppose the oppression by joining a political party.
________________________________________________________
There is rampant vandalism of this article. Thanks to Shanes a terrible vandalism was reverted. Everyone should protect the article with care.
This topic is being subjected to intense vandalism. Even after repeated restorations the vandalism continues. Can the administrator lock the topic for a limited period of time.
This article has lot of Vandalisma and Hate edits. Needs to be cleaned. 203.199.48.200 is one of the offender. NPOV is to be checked --Vyzasatya 23:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
- All the posts made by 203.199.48.200 needs to be reverted as they are highly offensive (ex. kojja means eunuch in telugu) and the page need to be protected. --Vyzasatya 23:44, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Worth it? — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 13:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC) I'd say the vandalism is sporadic and somewhat managable. If vandalised again a 30 day protection wouldn't do bad. feydey 15:19, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Who the hell is doin all this, and who is this vyzasatya(son of a bitch!!!!) who is the bastard who removed the main article. What is goin on here??? Nannapaneni M Chowdhary
Caste status
First of all this article about kammas seems to hide lots of facts...first and foremost being that kammas are SHUDRAS and not anything else as being picturised by that community. Same case withh reddys. Not that shudras are any less compared to anyone but I think kammas dont know much about themselves...they better research before claiming anything.....and be proud of what u are. dont try to impersonate.
What do you mean by aristocratic? Neither they ruled any part of the country except for one family vasireddy family who were zamindars in Guntur/krishna, nor they belong to kshatriya division. Please do not make POV changes without proper refernces. --Vyzasatya 19:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
This user Vyzasatya seems hell bent on proving his/her so called facts. I think I should nominate him or her for NOBEL prize ( which area physics/ chemistry will decide later ) for discovering this earth shattering fact that Reddies/Kammas are shudras. This discovery will no doubt willr rank as one of the big discoveries of this century. This one revelation will lift our country to great heights and expose the treacherous and diabolical gameplan of these two castes. He has taken the time, effort/pains to search google and somehow found this page on another caste ( to which he obviously does not belong ) and taken the time to disprove a lot of things. Highly commendable and good work. There is not any trace of jealousy or hatred against any caste in his writing. I have come to know a lot of facts from his posting. I think he should spend the rest of his life similarly exposing other castes which are treacherously masquerading as upper castes. Otherwise our country will siffer and march into despair. His information is very useful in this age where caste is becoming very important, where caste boundaries are strengthening. Noble heart and great thoughts. Long live Vyzasatya.
- Krishna
Someone is deliberately and persistently trying to paint Kammas as Shudras and OBCs. This is irrelevant and immaterial. It is a fact that standard Manu smriti system does not apply to people south of Vindhyas. Kammas are considered OCs but not OBCs/BCs according to government records.
Please do not mix up the terms OBC and Sudras. OBC is a modern day term and is used described the backward castes in a particular state. For eg: Kamma and Reddy are considered as upper castes in Andhra and OBC in Karnataka. It has nothing to do with "Sudra". As far a I know all castes apart from Kshatriya, Vaishya and Brahman were considered as "Sudras". This term has no significance in the modern society. Please do not try to impose ur personal feelings in wikipedia articles..Sumanthk 12:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There was sweeping claim above that Kamma/reddy are OBC in karnataka. Not sure if Kammas and reddy's are OBC in Karnataka. Balijas are definitely listed as OBC. What is important is that Rajputs and many Kshatryiya clans are also listed as OBC in Karnataka. See for yourself. http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/karnataka.htm. I do not know who the person in this post above , who is desperately trying to prove that Kamma and Reddys are OBC or something lower. Whatever it is Raju's / Rajputs seem to be listed officially as OBC atleast in some states. All one needed to become a kshatriya in the ancient days was enough cows and money to Brahmins. Also if Raju's are the original aryan kshatriya's ( being an aryan caste ) we should a lot of fair well built types. Instead I see many dark skinned (sometimes almost black) Rajus. So whoever is claiming Kammas are OBC willing to say that Rajput/Raju as OBC just because they have been listed as OBC in some states( even though they have so much of history )?. I am almost surprised by the amount of hatred that people have about a particular caste and go to great extents to prove somebody else caste as lower or this or that. No wonder the Muslims and then the Britishers found it so easy to rule and plunder this nation. I do not know who is posting these anti Kamma postings , but I do have respect for Brahmins/Kshatriyas/Kapus/reddies/velamas or any other caste. If one were to go back another 1000 years can you even tell who was brahmin, kshatriya etc. Castes were fluid , not hereditary then. - Krishna
One fact, I want to point is that the origin of Kammas itself if shrouded in mystery. So is that of other castes. There is some proof that Reddys are a section of Kapus that eventually became seperate caste. One thing is sure is that Kammas as a caste existed by around 1300 or so. I am a kamma who lived in TN. In TN there are a lot of Kamma Naidus ( of coimbatore and Madurai ) who migrated there during 1500s as part of Vijayanagar Nayaks ( later declared themselves as independent ). If Kammas did not exist as a caste till recently, it is hard to explain their presence in TN. Before 13 to 1400's ofcourse it is hard to guess who they were. One thing is obvious is that no one caste ruled AP in the medieval times for long, and all the castes Reddies, Velamas, Rajus, Kammas, Kapus were dominant at various times at various parts of Andhra. Kingdoms rose and fell and many castes acquired prominence in the mean time. ( By the way, Vijayanagar Kings are mostly of Kuruba caste of Karnataka ) . -Krishna
@@ Read Andhrula sanghika Charitra by Suravaram Prathap Reddy. He clearly mentioned of Srinadha kavi sarvabhouma of 13th century AD, mentioning -reddy, kamma and velama as Sath-Shudra castes (purified Shudras). FYI that book is available freely in the internet from Million Book Project.
I agree OBC and shudra are not same. But I dont agree that the term shudra should not be used coz it doesnt have significance in modern society. is that ur personal opinion? Just coz media dominated by the same shudras (kammas, reddys etc) keeps the fact under the carpet doesnt change it. The point is not of "Significance", its about "veracity". wikipedia is about facts and not about significance of anything. so lets stick to facts. fact is kammas are shudras. its irrelevant whether its significant or not. In that indus valley, aryans etc all these are not "significant" today in modern society. that doesnt change the fact.
My opinion is that the current day facts should be mentioned. My point is that the term "sudra" is not widely used in the modern day society. It can be mentioned under "origins/history" of the caste that kammas were sudras. Right now i'm not modifying the article. I will try to gather some data and update the article appropriately. Sumanthk 04:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Sounds appropriate.
According to Thurston Kammas and Velamas had military past.
there is nothing like pure kshatriyas. the aryan if at all they existed and/or invaded from outside they were brahmins. thats the reason they put themselves on the top and initially there were many brahmin kingdoms...infact as far as afghanistan there were brahmin kingdoms. they relegated others to the warrior clan, business clan etc etc..the kings and their tribes who were with the satraps were called kshatriyas...and anyway todays castes are all of mixed ancestry and KAMMAS ARE NOT KSHATRIYAS. they are Shudras. every leading expert on caste in india can tell that very clearly. So why this passing off as "upper castes".
For your info, even Rajulu from Andhra are not pure Kshatriyas. Later, they claimed Kshatriya status. Read Edgar Thurston,s Castes and Tribes of South India, Volume 6.
$$ In currant day situation, they (Kammas) are upper castes.
$$ In current day situation nothing changes. In hinduism caste is rigid. thats the whole problem of hindu society. so u dont change the current situation. Go do a fact check how kammas are reported in national dailies. they are called or "Upper Shudras". nothing changes in current situation. thats a fact in hinduism. thats not my opinion. lets stick to facts and not what we feel.
- In Hinduism caste is not rigid at all. Shivajis incidence proves that.
- if you re quoting national dailies, they are sometimes referred to as intermediate castes. And these national dailies also refer to banias in Bihar and Rajputs in Gujarat as shudras too ( because these castes are considered OBC there )
$$ Are you dyslexic or suffering from short attention span? Read what I wrote - Kammas are Upper Castes. What national dairies are writing - they are upper castes. FYI, there is no pure Kshatriya caste exists in Andhra Pradesh.
that was a typo ..its not upper castes but upper shudras. its a media term obviously.. there is no "upper" term used in ancient texts..
$$ All shudras are not OBCs. After the muslim onslaught, there was no one strong ruler from your spineless UPPER CASTE. Shivaji or Krishna Devaraya, take who ever resisted them was an OBC.
Now what muslim resistence did kammas exactly stop. The whole of hyderabad was founded and run by muslims for almost 400 yrs. so what did they stop. anyway i dont have a problem that they founded hyderabad. but how did kammas resist this onslaught?
- Again, you proved dyslexic. Read again. FYI, Musunuri Prolaya resisted Muslims for 50 years on Telugu land.
$$ and where does this "your spineless UPPER CASTE " come from. Where do I come here from. I never talked my caste or your caste. The discussion is abt kammas. so keep it objective.and if thats what u believe about upper castes why the hell do u claim "kammas as upper castes in current situation?".
$$ Your definition of upper caste is different from mine. If we apply your definition to upper castes, they are spineless. They are highly decorated in ancient era. Reality kicked in with muslim onslaught. As per my definition, castes like Kamma, Reddy, velama, jat, vakkaliga are upper castes.
$$ Well its not my definition. Dwijas are considered upper castes. I havent defined anything here. or to be more clear and precise non dwijas are considered shudras. (dalits were categorized differently from shudras at a later stage)
Lets not forget though u admit kammas are OBCs and claim there is nothing wrong with it, still kammas commit atrocities on dalits in most of andhra. In fact in AP upper castes (brahmins, kshatriyas, vaishyas) are very less in number and mostly powerless. ITs The OBCs (kammas, reddys, kapus) who commit atrocities on dalits. so how are they progressive??
$$ true very true. thats my point. there is no shame in any caste. If kammas believe so then why do they not realise or never admit that they are OBCs, in fact they should be proud of it. It doesnt matter what caste it is, what matters is whether they are admitting the truth or lying. Tell me how and when did they change into upper castes. They didnt. They are socially and economically considered upper castes and hence they dont fall under reserved category but they are OBCs neverthless and mind u there is no shame in that. But there is shame in false claims.
Coz kammas developed under NTR by crushing everyone else they are a developed lot now. Good for them. but that doesnt change their position in hindu caste hierarchy.
$$ Kammas are very prominent in Vijayanagara empire too. Do some research. All kshatriyas were not born kshatriyas. Later, Kshatriya status was given to many communities, for ex - Raju caste in AP.
$$ U are absolutely right. None of the castes today were born as what they were. Most of them changed status. some fell some climbed. Dr.Ambedkar very clearly proved that. In fact that is the reason shivaji had problems during his coronation coz he was denied as marathas werent counted as kshatriyas.
$$ so the point is today there is no such flexibility so kammas dont have invent that flexibility which doesnt exists. As far as Rajus are concerned they have been kshatriyas since that caste existed as Rajus, vermas. At least in the recorded histroy.
$$ Not sure if the above argument makes sense about no caste flexibility. When you say this flexibility does not exist today, on whose authority are you even saying this. Is there some central authority on granting this so called flexibility or are you assuming this authority of granting flexibility. If in the ancient days such caste flexibility existed , then in this modern age (that is today as u refer above) caste should even less rigid. And a caste is determined by its status in society, not based on some whims and fantasies of some jealous net prowler like you. I assume ( the guy who posted the last para ) is not not kamma, and the fact that you have taken pains to visit a kamma section to reveal your insights, shows that your motives are not facts, but attempts to deprecate a caste based on personal feelings. Anyway good luck.
My two friends above (Sumanth and ) seem hell bent on proving their point that Kammas are so and so. It seems more than facts they are driven by technicalities and possibly some hate agenda against Kammas and Reddies, may be out of jealousy. I must say these friends while , do seem to know a lot, I must say that, have a lot of ignorance about the caste system in India.
For a start , Komatis ( or Arya Vysya ) though they claim dwija status, by looking at them , they do not look by any stretch of imagination, Aryan upper caste. They are probably more indigeneous than any other caste. Just because they follow some rituals at home and do trading does not make them pure dwijas. But for all practical purposes it is ok to assume that they are vysyas. Unfortunately I cannot say that Raju's in Andhra all have Kshatriya origins. I am not sure VijayaNagara Kings are Rajus. There are hardly any Rajus near Hampi. It is considered they were kannad speaking kurubas. The Maharaja of Mysore has Yadav origins, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mysore - even the first wodeyar is called Yadava Raya check this site, ) even though they are technically Rajus. Ask any Raju in Karnataka, they automatically claim mysore maharajas are their kin. And like everything else, this whole dwija thing is all relative. When you guys above say that Dwijas are considered uppercastes, who is the authority here - Brahmins?. Marathas and some other castes though ruled marathwada, brahmins had problems with that. And in the 3rd century when Rajputs overran north INdia, they were crowned as Kshatriyas, even though they were just a central asian tribe. Throughout Indian history, there has been no connection the ground realities and what was written on paper ( by the brahmins ).
The discussion on whether Kammas/Reddys should be seen in this context. When you claim that on paper Kammas/reddies are not dwija, then in the same breadth kammas/reddies can claim that "on paper' system did not reflect reality and actually reflects the biase of brahmins more than anything else.
Both are i guess right or both wrong. If kammas and reddies were very poor , oppressed, or barely educated, then there is some point. But they are not. Brahmins atleast in the ancient india, ( thought I loathe to generalise) have been more characterized by grand claims and tracing ancestry from some mythical clans etc. They also have the habit of invoking gods, when attacked ( as when Moslems attacked somnath temple in Gujarath), but with Muslims that has not worked. That is when they had to turn to other castes ( upper or lower or whatever ) to protect the temples.
In case you did not know , a section of Iyengars in Tamilnadu ( Vadagalai ) are actually other upper castes admitted into their fold as brahmins during the reform period of Ramanuja. Can u say that they are not brahmins. Same with some sections of Konkan brahmins, who were middle eaterners brought ashore by ship wrecks. And many so called "upper castes" are labelled as OBCs in some states ( Rajputs, Banias etc ) because that is what they are.
For ex:
1)When Krishna Raya attacked Kondavidu, his poets described his army's composition like this. Krishna Raya left one lakh soldiers in Vijayanagara under leadership of Govinda Mantri for city's protection. His army consists of 6 senadhipathis. Two Kshatriya (Sri Ranga Raju and Imma Raju), 1 Brahmin (Rayasamu Kondamarusu), 1 Kamma (Pemmasani Lingama Naidu), 1 Padma Nayaka (Velugoti Kumara Thimma Nayaka), 1 Panta Reddy (Gangadhara Reddy). Each senadhipathi, is in charge of 30,000 soldiers, 4 battalions of horses and 200 elephants. Later on Pemmasani Lingama Nayudu was awarded with Gandikota fort. [From the book Andhra Veerulu by Sheshadri Ramana Kavi].
2) Rajavahana Vijayam written during Sadasiva Raya time described like this. (Page - 178 Andhrula sanghika Charitra by suravaram). Raju ku mundu enugulu, venaka gurramulu, rathamulu, venuka kalbalamu nadichenu. Gurrapu sena lo Pathanulu ekkuva vundiri. Kalbalamu lo Boyalu, Ontarulu kaththulu pattukuni nadichiri. Yuvaraju bharya, vumpudu kaththe kooda pallakila lo velliri. Paluvuru veshyalu, karanalu kooda sainyam venta velliri. Ee sainyamu vellinappudu panta chelu nasanam ayinavi ani KAPULU dukhinchiri. Durga palakulagu Kamma varunu, Velama varunu yudhdhamu chesiri. (page -180)
3)Page 184, Panchatantramu lo Venkata nathudu, Rayala sainyamu nu choochi thurakalu itlu anukuniri ani rasadu. Veyyi enugulu, laksha mandi Bondili Rajputs, Laksha mandi pandarulu (may be Ontarulu), laksha mandi thurakalatho kalipi kalbalamu 6 lakshalu rayala sainyam lo vunnayi. Ghanulu ayina Rajulunu, Velamalunu, kamma varunu vunna Rayalani manam (thurakalu) gelava galigithe Khuda (Allah) vunnadani nammochchu.
Edgar Thurston
This Panel 1 and Kings Andhra kapu guys have been talking shit about all the other castes based on what This British asshole has wrote about the telugu castes. I just wanted you guys to see what he wrote about them. I known that this is a Kamma article but those guys have felt entitled to write whatever they want on all our articles so i just wanted us to have some information to quote back to them.
It is plain curiosity about one's own history. As long it is devoid of prejudice it is OK. A person or a country without a proper perspective of history is doomed. The 'broad-minded' guy who made the remarks (given below) betrayed his inner emotions by trumpeting that his girl friend belongs to a particulr community. One cannot expect right attitude from such persons in real life.
why this forigner..help??? what the hell going on here common guys. We should not forget the truth all humans are offshoot of monkeys. First humans are originated from monkeys ,from there stoneage people(AAdhimaanavlu) next evolution of groups these groups evolved as castes based on thier nature of work....so in one way origin of all castes same..kamma did not come from Heaven, or kapu or reddy...all castes have same origin, kammas are not made of gold or kapus or reddys, kammas are bc caste in tamilnadu and naidu too), reddy is only OC caste... asalu manam andaram kothi nunchi vachinavaallame nijam cheppali ante our fore fore fore..fathers are monkeys...so all castes were monkeys once from there these monkeys evolved as humanbeings probably they had not shown any caste feeling like what we are showing....4th 5th 6th class history books are enough to prove what are humans first so before talking about castes ...we should not forget kamma,kapu,reddy,guys were monkyes in first generation....sooo coooool guys relax....life is small ,we all die..all castes people exit is graveyaard kammas ki seperate ga vundadu grave yaard...and so others ki... relax ..have fun....love girls of any caste like me .i have girl friends of all castes...iam enjoying..thats cooool.....enjoy life...nothing to worry...u know iam composing this message with my girl friend anitha( she is kamma)....we never think about castes....we think about caring and loving..we think about helping others.............so guys plz stop hating each other based on castes....dont do that..its foolishness......good luck to all......kamma-kapu-redyy--all others BAI-BAI..we all brothers...JAI HIND..not jai kapunadu or kammanaadu....ok naa.........ok guys bye for now
- $ (This is wrong, Kamma naidus are OC too in TamilNadu, may be other naidus are not. There are hardly any reddies in TN . It is like claiming Reddies are OC in UP or Bihar, because they do not exist there and they are not in any list.
63.97.164.163 is a kapu guy trying to act like he has no caste feelings. This is what thurston acutally said about balijas and he changed it to kammas.
Balijas
- They are the Chief trading caste of Telugus.
- Their claim to be descendents of The Vijayanagar, Tanjore and Madurai dynasties is not accepted by all since they do not follow Kshatriyas traditions and those kings claimed to belong to the Bharadwaja and Kasyapa gotra.
- Balijas may be an offshoot of the Kamma casteIWell the author might have been referring to the Kamma Balija which existed long time i guees it merged into the Kammas.
@@ The surnames or Gothrams of Balijas donot match with the Kammas!!!! They only match with the kapu caste.. So take a Hike Buddy!!!!
- According to him the most accurate account of their origins is that they were a recent offshoot of the Reddy or Kapu caste
- The Balija caste is of mixed origins made up of people who were expelled from their proper caste or were the result of irregular unions.
@@@ The balijas were expelled from the Kapu caste because they took up trading as Profession the Balijas were suppressed.The Kapu's revolted and then the Balijas started marrying with the kapus back again...This was what the authhor was trying to say... This happened in Srikakilam District..
- Kapu is a common Telegu word for ryot (farmer)
- They eat flesh and readily consume alcohol.
- Balijas are found in all walks of life, from collie, to municipal inspector, butlers, and farmers.
(True for Kamma,Kapu,Reddy,Bramhin,Mala,Madiga,Raju) whats surprising in this???
- The name Balija originates from Bali (a sacrifice) and Ja (born). The myth is that Siva’s wife Parvati made a penance in order to look beautiful for Siva and the person that brought her bangles riding a donkey was the ancestor of the Gajula Balijas.
- He also states a legend in which the Muslims were chasing away the Kapus and Balijas and when they got to the Pennar river they were too scared to cross it so a Malla helped them out thus saving their community.
- He states that Telaga is just a northern Circars synonym for Balija and doesn’t’ think they are a separate caste.
- A particularly offensive statement he makes which he claims is a true fact is that a sub caste of Balijas called Jakkulas and Adapapas either give off their first born girl for prostitution or never marry and become prostitutes for the Zamindar, their resulting sons are called Balijas.
(The sub caste does not exist in the Balijas... Just like Kapu became a Synonym for farmers Balija/Setty became a synonym for Traders.. Setty Balijas in Godavari Districts are Gouds, perike Balijas are Perikes, Setty is found in Vyshayas/Gavaraas who are also trading castes,Konda Kapus are hill tribes,Naidu title is used by Kamma/Boya in rayalaseema/TN,Palle Kapus are a sub caste in Reddy but is also refeered to some Fisherman communities. So the above mentioned might have been some of those sub caste which took over these names... Please dont confuse readers with your half knowledge..)
Proof of Musunuri Nayaks/ Madurai Nayaks/ Telugu Chodas==
@@ Musunuri kapaya Nayaka's caste was not Kamma, He did not mention it anywhere and Suvarnam Pratapa Reddy (Andhrula Sangika Charitra) mentions that Proloya Nayaka was a Reddy and ofcource Kapaya Nayaka was his cousin brother.Either he was a Reddy or a Kapu Just because Musnuri name exists in Kammas doesnt make him a Kamma.It exists in Bramhins he might have been a Bramhin also... And coming to one more ridiculous argument regarding his uncle with the name Kamma Nayak... Kaapaya Nayaka sounds and means like Kapu so he should be Kapu right...(Kapu is a general word meaning Framer/Protector etc. The word "Kamma" is specific).
Ans - Dont argue blindly based on Kapunadu articles. Kapunadu author got confused Musunuri Prolaya with Koppolu Prolaya Nayak. Read my post below about Pithapuram inscription. The last name, place of birth etc point that he might belong to Kamma community.
@@ May be kapunadu or Kammanadiu author whoever it is got confused but Musunuri Nayaks did not call themseleves Kammas and Surnames donot idenify the Caste its the Gothram which clearly separated them.And Suvarnapratpaa Reddy called him Reddy and Musunuri's married themsleves into Immadi families which are Kapu again... Iam sorry borother they were reddy/Kapu definitey not Kamma. And please stop this crap about Surnames lots of communities share the same Surnames do you know why??? It was because in the Old Days the Names of villages assigned to other community members who worked or were employed by Village Heads..So deciding a caste based on a Village name is ridiculous..
@@ Pemmasani Viswanatha Nayaka -- He also did not mention he was a Kamma and Pemmasani name is found among Velamas also.. Not really. Please show proof before claiming... Viswanatha Nayaka's Surname was Pemmasinga --- Source Penukonda Charitra
Ans - I dont think Viswanatha Nayaka's last name as Pemmasani. Pemmasani Lingama Naidu, was one of the military chief under Krishna Devraya. Later he was awarded with Gandikota fort. Poets at Raya's court Pemmasani mentioned him as Kamma. In fact, Pemmasani, Vasireddy, Suryadevara, Tripuraneni etc are Peda Kamma last names.
.(Viswanatha Nayudu was the son of Pemmasani Nagama Nayudu, Governor of Madurai, who rebels against Vijayanager king. Viswanatha was sent to suppress the rebellion of his father. Pemmasani was the surname of Madurai Nayaks and Governors of Gandikota. They were all Kammas).
1. There got to be some logic to name onself "Kamma Nayak". 2. Pemmasani clan (Kammas) still controls a small Zamindari of Nayakarpatti (near Madurai). It is only logical to conclude Pemmasani Nayaks of Madurai settled to be Zamindars after losing control of Madurai to British. 3. Any number of historical and modern facts point out towards the Kamma lineage of Musunuri Nayaks. The surname is exclusive to Kammas & Brahmins. If someone wants to assume that Prolaya & Kaapaya were Brahmins, so be it. 5. Prolaya Nayak (Kamma) was unanimoulsly decided to lead all Nayak chefs to rebel against Delhi sultanate because he would be acceptable to feuding Reddy and Velama chiefs (It was this rivalry that led to the fall of Warangal). Velamas could not reconcile even to this, which led to the death of Kaapaya who valiantly fought for the unity and independence of Telugu land. 4.The tendency to deny what is due to someone on the basis of innate hatred and jealousy is unfortunate.
Musunuri Nayaks were Kammas.
1. Surname "Musunuri" exists only in Kamma and Brahmin communities of AP. 2. The name of Prolaya Nayak's uncle (China Naanna) was Kamma Nayak. 3. The inscriptions (Vilasa Tamrapatram) made during Prolaya and Kaapaya's reign did not mention the caste. The ASI evidence, if exists, may be indicated. --Kumar
That Pithapuram incription was isued by KOPPOLU Prolaya Nayak, NOT by MUSUNURI Prolaya Nayak. In fact koppolu Nayak was one of the 75 Nayakas who fought under leadership of MUSUNURI Nayak. How can two last name exist for the same person? They are different persons. After death of Musunuri Nayak, the coalition got disturbed, and Koppolu Nayaka was defeated by Rajamundry Reddy king.
Proofs - Koppolu Prolaya and Musunuri Prolaya are different persons. http://202.41.85.234:8000/gw_44_5/hi-res/hcu_images/G2.pdf Page 167-168 - Clearly mention that Koppolu Nayaka from Pithapuram was one among 75 Nayakas under Musunuri. Page 172 in the book. Kopolu declared independence after death of Musunuri Kapaya Nayaka. Later Reddy king defeated Koppolu Nayak. Kapunadu author got confused and presented both Musunuri and Kopolu as one person and declared Musunuri was from Pithapuram, so Kapu. Kopolu Nayak was a Kapu.
Musunuri Kapaaya Nayaka has an inscription whihc was found in Pithapuram(Godavari Dist) by Archaelogical Survey of India. which mentione his Family Name and his Caste Koppula & Kapu... Please dont claim without proper proof..
$$ That Pithapuram incription was isued by KOPPOLU Prolaya Nayak, NOT by MUSUNURI Prolaya Nayak. In fact koppolu Nayak was one of the 75 Nayakas who fought under leadership of MUSUNURI Nayak. How can two last name exist for the same person? They are different persons. After death of Musunuri Nayak, the coalition got disturbed, and Koppolu Nayaka was defeated by Rajamundry Reddy king.
$$ Proofs - Koppolu Prolaya and Musunuri Prolaya are different persons. http://202.41.85.234:8000/gw_44_5/hi-res/hcu_images/G2.pdf Page 167-168 - Clearly mention that Koppolu Nayaka from Pithapuram was one among 75 Nayakas under Musunuri. Page 172 in the book. Kopolu declared independence after death of Musunuri Kapaya Nayaka. Later Reddy king defeated Koppolu Nayak. Kapunadu author got confused and presented both Musunuri and Kopolu as one person and declared Musunuri was from Pithapuram, so Kapu.
Madurai Nayak..(Tiruamala Nayaka has an Incription in Madurai Meenakshi temple when he made a grant to the temple which mentions his Surname,Caste and other Details... Did you ever bother to check before posting??? Incidentally the Madurai and Tanjavore nayaks are relatives. Do you have any idea about their Surnames????
Ans - I know their surnames, which are very popular Kamma last names.
Telugu Chodas... The Descendant familes are still there with Surnames like Chode/Choda Setty/ChodaPaneni/Konidena and are Kapu by caste.
The Kakateya Kings were bonded labourers they were not Kammas.. The Kammas were appointed as Cheiftains only during the Kakatiya Kings and Gangeya Sahini was prominent..Before that there is no trace of any Kamma Chieftains or Kammanadu...
Ans - Kamma Nadu was mentioned during Ganapathi Deva's (Pratapa Rudra's grand father) regime.
Please donot Post without knowing the actual facts and Distort history ...you are insulting your own Ancestors...
Ans - Please dont post the crap written by Kapunadu author, who claims everyone from Sathavahana to Kakateeyas as Kapu.
Kapunadu is very accurate then this BullShit!!! The research posted on Kapunadu I checked for myself through old history books and old telugu history books. There is no sign of any Kammas in the history. Reddis were an offshoot of Kapus. Reddis were like local officers. Also there was a list of familiy surnames that are decendants of the Vijayanager empire which all turned out to be Kapu. If Kpu waas an offshoot of Kamma, Kapu would not represent the plurality (30%)of Andhra Pradesh. Alot of Kapus still live in Karnataka. They call themselves Balija Naidus.
@@ cool dude u must be pissed of.as u can't find the kapu's as rulers any where.U cant change the truth .Forget the olden days even now can u find any kapu's leading as village heads or dominant persons in any village in andhra . Well u can't find wher ever u go u will find either it is kamma or reddy and in only few places raju's that's because it is continued from the past and it will go further in future
fact check
factuality of the content in this paragraph need to be verified:
Kammas began to gain status in Andhra Pradesh early during the second millennium AD. The Kakatiyas (Kaakateeyas) of Warangal (Orugallu) were the most well known of Kamma kings. In the middle ages they either controlled small areas or were in important positions in the armies of kings. After the decline of major kingdoms they still owned large fertile lands. Owing mainly to this they continued to dominate in the villages as small kings, Zameendars and village heads, especially in coastal AP, much akin to the Reddys in the western parts of the state. They also migrated to Tamilnadu and Kamma Nayakas gained prominence in Tanjore and Coimbatore areas.
$$ Nayakas who ruled Tanjore are not kammas. They are velamas -- They were not velamas either the Valamas picked up rivalry with the Vijayanagar Kings which led to their downfall. No sane Emperor sound enough would have given a rebellious community such a large tract of land!!! $$ kakatiyas are not kammas as far as historical evidence goes. --Vyzasatya 05:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
During one of my visits to India, I read History of Andhras by Dr. Narasimha Rao. I don't recall the exact name, but I remember that he was a lecturer in either A.C. or Hindu college, Gunturu. According to his research, Kakathiyas are predominantly velamas. During the last years of Kakathiya empire, a group called Musunoori Nayakulu ruled the remnannts of Kakathiya dynasty and this group is Kammas from Krishna District.
I lived in Tamil Nadu and met few Nayudus. Tanjavuru Nayakas are considered to be Kammas
- Thanks for your input --Vyzasatya 14:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Some of the information about Kammas in this article is written without any reference and is purely personal. This article about Kammas needs to be cleaned up. Claimes that Kammas are Emperors and had no material references any where in history, Some even went ahead and posted Kammas Ruled the entire India (including todays Pakisthan, Burma, afganisthan, Iran and Even China) for 2000 years. Please don't provide information without material references.
This article is about the good and wellness about Kamma community and its heritage, Please preserve it .
Comment: Kammas had and have a lot to feel proud of. There is no need to claim "Aristocracy", descent from Kakatiyas (slave clan) etc. The Telugu society knows that. Envy, jealousy, prejudice and hatred against them are things Kammas should take in their stride.------
@@Incorrect information posted by 24.175.44.123 about kammas being built the Vellore Fort:
This is the information provided by Archelogical Soceity of India (on the Front door of Fort) and also a consistent informtaion provided and reffered in various books on Vellore and the Govt of Tamil Nadu & Tourist dept of India:
Vellore Fort----
Bommi and Thimma Reddy built this large fort in the 16th century during the reign of the Vijayanagar king Krishnadeva Raja. The fort was captured in the 17th century by the Adi Shahis, the Muslim rulers from Bijapur. It was then taken by the Marathas, and later taken by Daud Khan of Delhi in the early 18th century. The British took control of this fort in 1768 and controlled it until Independence. After the British killed Tipu Sultan they imprisoned Tipu’s son and daughter in this fort.
Jalakanteswara Temple This large, impressive Siva temple was built around 1566 in the Vijayanagar style. This ancient temple is named after Jalakanteswara, or “Lord Siva residing in the water.” The temple has a Nataraja Siva deity on the northern altar, and on the western altar is a Siva-linga. This temple has just recently been reestablished as a place of worship.
The temple is famous for its magnificent sculptures. There is a 30m (100ft) high, seven-storey gopuram made of blue granite, which is flanked by two carved dwarpalas (door guards). The carvings in the kalyan mandapa (pillared hall) are some of the most impressive in India. The outer pillars have sculptures of rearing horses and dragons. The inner pillars have sculptures of yalis, which are lion-like creatures. This temple is located in the Vellore Fort, near the north wall of the fort. Open daily 6 am to 1 pm and 3 to 8 pm.
Thanks for bringingup some facts but you cannot vandalize the pages--Vyzasatya 18:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Quoting text Andhrula sanghika Charitra by Suravaram Prathap Reddy. He clearly mentioned of Srinadha kavi sarvabhouma of 13th century AD, mentioning -reddy, kamma and velama as Sath-Shudra castes (purified Shudras)..... I think I have something which speaks on the contrary.
http://mkatten.tripod.com/bobbili.html for instance gives a description of how velama identity as a caste/community has evolved. Project Gutenberg also contains some material supporting this claim. The claims are backed by historical records in Govt. archives. This is narrated in the context of Bobbili katha, The point to be noted is that if velama identity has not evolved before 17th century, how can srinatha kavi quote that sect in his 13th century text?
Also it would be apt if someone could extend this section and provide references for the evolution of surname. I have read some where that all names that end in ['neni'] are derived from ['sahni'], just as ['reddy'] from ['rathod'] Neni exists in velama and Kapu Castes as well So what do you want us to conclude are these communities related???.
It would be more apt to discuss the name nayaka, naidu, chowdary or choudary in this context. There is some confusion over the clans, for example the nayakas of tanjore are refered to be velama nayakas or padma nayaka velamas in direct contradiction to current article.Tanjavore and Madurai Nayaks were related and the Velamas were Subjugated moved down to Southern Tamil Nadu by Vijayanagar Kings to make sure they doont create any trouble!!! Its would be surprsing any sane emperor would handover a sizeable chunk of his terriotory to a rebellious Clan!!!Some authentic authority needs to verify this fact. Similar suspicions about Musunuri nayakas also exists.
Ans - In those days, Kings ruled like that. They used sama, dana, bheda, danda upayalu, in that order. Akbar ruled most part of India without much trouble by entering into marriage alliances with Rajputs. After defeating Gajapathis, Krishna Raya married one of their daughter and got truce with them.
This raises strong doubts about the origins of individual caste idenities, I understand that wiki doesn't endorse opinions, but just for extending the discussion i would like to say the castes of Andhra in the likeness of nayudu, kamma, velama, telaga etc. share common genealogical origins, often siding with various dynasties and kings in times of war-fare and extending family relations might be the source of these so called distinct caste identities.
The caste identities might have been used by britishers as per their Divide and rule policy too. This is a hypothesis and lacks any factual credibility.
Ans - Velama, as a caste referred in Palanati story, supposedly in 11th century AD. There are countless Velama mentioned during Pratapa Rudra time. Srinadha belong to much later period.
Comments: There were no pure Kshatriya rulers in South India. Indigenous social groups elevated themselves to ruling elite and poets like Srinatha extolled them as "purified" shudras to curry their favours. All the communities such as Reddy,Kamma, Velama, Kapu etc. must have had a common origin but diversified due to social and political factors.
There was a good book called "Andhra Kamma Vari charithra" by koththa Bavaiah choudary (Available in central library in HYD). I could not find copies of this book anywhere else.
- Can you please provide the scans of the relevant info from the book you mentioned above so that necessary correction to the article can be made. Meanwhile I will try to get it if I can. Wikipedia is all about facts we appreciate your effort --Vyzasatya 19:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- It is good to know that this is all about facts. It was quoted this in the article
"Kammas in Andhra Pradesh grown to prominence during the Kakatiya kingdom. In recent times Kammas claimed the Kakatiyas of Warangal to be from Kamma community, but the claim is not verified."
- Either you verify this and put it in the article or you do not put it in the article. Why you are doing like this. If this is the way you want to do this, then include all the above comments and add a disclaimer that this is not verified. Historically there is no mentioning of caste kamma in any of the older books. Only recently people wrote books about Kammas and all of a sudden, they are Kaktiyas or Kshatriyas :)
$$ Who told that Kamma caste was not mentioned in books of older days. Read Andhrula Sanghika Charitra by Suravaram Prathap Reddy. He clearly mentioned of Srinadha kavi sarvabhouma of 13th century AD, mentioning -reddy, kamma and velama as Sath-Shudra castes (purified Shudras). And Suravaram quoted texts from at least 3 other authors of 13-16th century, who described valour of kammas in Vijayanagara army. Go and read the book, then comment.
FYI that book is available in the internet from Million Book Project.
some idiot gets up tommorow and writes a book on kamma history starting from 1AD or whatever and that becomes a reference dayafter. thats plain nonsense. ## Do you think Suravaram Prathapa Reddy is an idiot. I think you are an idiot.It doesnt make any damn difference what u think of me.
So dont refer to some unknown authorities whose claims are neither true nor verified and start passing them off as facts. ## So who is unknown - Srinadha? Or You.why is it ending with me.i never claimed i am an authority.
$$srinadha is no great historian on history of kambojas to which he related kammas if thats what he did.I am referring to kammas being referred to kambojas. There IS NO PROOF FOR THAT. ITS ONLY SPECULATION.
$$ I agree thats a speculation. What about Kapu, Kampili connection? Kapus claiming Chalakya, sathavahana, Kakateeya, Vijayanagara is pure BS.
i never said anything abt kapus being chalukyas or anything.so may be its BS
$$ So shall we agree you as great historian? FYI, there is no concept of history wring in indian middle ages. We ve to reconsruct history from writings of authors like Srinadha.
Well i think u are off the point. my objection was only to the kamboja connection.
The main article speculates about the possibility of kammas having origniated from the buddhist concept of "kamma(pali)" whatever that means.Being certain this is a not a fact and only an opinion lets look at the logical veracity of the claim.Buddhism evolved as a reaction to Brahmanism(hinduism was so called) which was based on caste system by rejecting the whole concept of caste.So its nothing but impossible that a caste might have buddhist origins.I would recommend the author to verify this claim and remove it since it would only defame the community for false claims.
Questionable Kurmi Origin of Kammas
The kurmi origins of kammas seems suspect. This section should probably be removed from Kamma origin. The section talks about historians claiming a connection between Kammas and Kurmis. The only historian who even mentioned this possibility is Historian Avadh Bihari Lal Avasthi that too speculation. Like many of his other speculations. For e.g The book by Awasthi talks about koimb-tore to denote Coimbatore, but Coimbatore is actually a tamil name called Kovan Pudur which got corrupted to Coimbatore by the British. His claims refer back to a period aruond 100 BC, which is utterly ridiculous, when even Rajputs did not exist as a caste, and even the Brahmin caste was slowlyt forming its identity.
I suspect if Kammas existed as a caste before 700-800 AD. if they originated from Kurmis, atleast the caste Kurmi should be mentioned in ancient Andhra books.
REPLY Agreed. The theory was propounded by well-known historians. It is not conclusive. There is no harm in knowing different theories.
POV
Bcoz this article is being authored purely telugu people..i c a lot of POV in favour of Kamma's in terms of contribution. i ask u people to change the 'tone' of some areas where they make references to how Kamma Contributed to A.P. Brothers in Arms 17:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not POV, It's purely facts. Ask anyone else from Andhra that is not a Kamma to be unbiased and talk about our contributions.--Milki 21:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Stop adding POV tag, unless you can support your baseless arguments.--Milki 16:53, 22 October 2006
It is debatable if any of the Kammas were forced to hand over their land, because of land reforms.
Please improve article on TELUGU
If some of you guys had spent even a fraction of the time you have spent fighting amongst yourselves (or putting hate edits in this article) on improving the article on Telugu Language, we will have a much more respectable article about our mother tongue. It is presently in a pitiable state (compare Telugu & Kannada or Telugu & Tamil articles to understand what I mean). It is really a pity that the article on 'Italian of the East', and the most widely spoken Dravidian language has been neglected like this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.97.37 (talk) 10:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
NPoV & clean-up
I've placed these two tags on the article. The former relates to quite a lot of the language (and attitudes expressed); for example, talk about brave warriors and valiant fighters. The latter is because the article is in many places out of keeping with the MoS, and badly needs copy-editing for its English. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Spelling
The correct spelling is "Vijayanagar" not "Vijajanagar". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.165.151.178 (talk • contribs) 07:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please sign your messages at Talk pages with four tildes (~~~~).
- New sections go at the bottom of the page; if you create them at the top, they're likely not to be noticed.
- Edits can only be accepted if they're explained and given a source. You can explain by filling in the edit summary box (which you should always do), and if necessary posting on the talk page. See WP:CITE for details of giving sources.
- There are often disputes about transliterations, as different methods are popular at different times and with different people; that's why a source is so important. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- The OP is right. It's Vijayanagar (Vijayanagaram being the original spelling)
--Milki 03:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)