Talk:Antioch International Movement of Churches

Removed Libelous & Off Topic Section

I also removed a section that references a church staff member for a few reasons: - paragraph is mainly about the business owned by that church staff member - accusation of racism is only from one person's personal blog, and the person is an ex employee of the business. News article linked to campus newspaper doesn't reference any of the racism accusations in the section. - accusation is against one individual of questionable importance to the organization (Antioch Org > Antioch Waco > College Pastor > College Pastor's side hustle) I don't necessarily disbelieve the content but I don't know that it's relevant to the topic nor is it well sourced enough to stay up, IMO. There are a few other of these in the article but this one stood out as particularly egregious) If anyone disagrees or has other sources here's the edit. However my guess is this is probably libel and should be permanently removed. ~ Gargarlinks (talk) 00:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

It would be incorrect to label the section as libel since a libel is a statement that is untrue. The section is comprised of true statements and even you say you don't necessarily disbelieve the content, so it's not a fair reason to use for its removal.

You view it as "off topic." Megan Peck, an employee of Waco Tours, says she experienced racism from Antioch Waco's college pastor Luke Whyte, who co-owns Waco Tours. It's relevant when an Antioch pastor is noted to be a racist, even when it's outside of a "workplace." For example if Luke Whyte made a racist tweet, (not saying he has) even if it's on his personal time (or during a second job), it's not uncommon for people to call for him to get fired from his primary workplace. People easily get fired for bad activities conducted elsewhere because society agrees their job and personal time are still responsible and interlinked anyway. Therefore, it's reasonable to note Luke, an Antioch pastor, for their racist character as support to an integration of systemic racism in Antioch Community Church. Austin613 (talk) 09:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

This is wikipedia, not a tabloid. A former employee at a different business accusing her former boss of being a racist does not belong in an encyclopedia. If there were indeed better or more sources, or if the incidents occurred at Antioch, it would perhaps be worth more consideration, but as is there is no serious reason for inclusion on wikipedia. ~~ Gargarlinks (talk) 02:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Describing Ms. Peck's account as "tabloid" material is a quality I disagree with. It is not false, it is not sensationalist, is it not an account that seeks to profit off of wild publicity. Antioch employs Mr. Whyte, Ms. Peck has attested that Luke has exhibited racism, so I am not in consensus with your opinion. Austin613 (talk) 07:17, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not relevant enough to the topic for inclusion for the reasons previously mentioned. The content may be valid but it belongs on the blog it's already on and maybe Google Reviews, not Wikipedia. ~~ Gargarlinks (talk) 18:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposal for Merging Jimmy Seibert and Origins Sections Together

Given that much of the founding of Antioch International intertwines with the young adulthood of its founder Seibert, I believe that it is redundant to have both a section on the founder and origins. I propose merging the two together.

This can be addressed in another post, but what is the difference between controversies and incidents? Whats the point of these being two different sections?

Wdonghan (talk) 17:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the necessity of it, removing the "Jimmy Seibert" subheading complicates things more. How would the "politics" of subsection Seibert fit in "Origins"? It's probably better to refocus the content. I'm not sure I agree with all your edits, you've done quite a lot of trimming, and your style of "merging" has been more drastic removal than combining/reorganizing. All of them have been reductive edits, not generative. One section about a pastor's resignation was eliminated completely. Why? Are you also deleting extra sources too?

It appears the difference between controversies and incidents are controversies suggest broader general ongoing topical issues, and incidents are more specific events in timed order. Two sections makes an easier to delineate than one massive group merging. Austin613 (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the "Politics" subsection under Jimmy Seibert could be moved into Positions, beliefs, and practices, as Positions, beliefs, and practices also covers instances of Seibert individually expressing his beliefs, such as him and his wife advocating for the corporal punishment of children, even though there is nothing written about the wider Antioch Movement's stance on this issue, or how Seibert's stance influences his congregation. We could move Seibert's advocacy of Trump there.

To preface this: I have no interest in defending an evangelical and conservative Christian church or its reputation. However, I believe that much of the article, especially before I made my edits, was unwieldy and redundant, and describes incidents that aren't relevant enough to be detailed in a Wikipedia article, which is meant to provide a high level summary of an organization and it's most significant and notable attributes and incidents. This is a Wikipedia article, not a Youtube video summarizing every little drama or controversy or interesting event a group has gotten into.

Huey's resignation as a pastor and his later attempt at wiping away his history of involvement with Antioch is frankly not notable enough to be mentioned here, especially because we don't know the actual motivations behind Huey's decision and can only speculate. If we detailed every negative experience an individual former employee has had with this or any organization, this would turn the website into a Glassdoor copycat. What we should be putting is noteworthy incidents or allegations/evidence of systemic, widespread issues at Antioch.

Wdonghan (talk) 02:39, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think merging is necessary. ~~ Gargarlinks (talk) 00:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Removing YWAM section

YWAM is widely liked and not particularly controversial among Christians. It's a very large org with its own controversies, but I would argue Baylor University has had as many or more controversies than YWAM and we're not listing affiliation with Baylor in the controversies section... ~~ Gargarlinks (talk) 00:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Balancing article with some positives

Would be great to balance the article out a bit. Some ideas: - Antioch's focus on the poor; modest staff salaries; poverty programs like the Feast in Waco - Volunteers in disaster relief; obviously proselytization must be referenced here but a lot of time and money is spent caring for those in natural disasters Gargarlinks (talk) 01:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

A Wikipedia article is not a lists of pros and cons. Also, while I appreciate your contributions, your edits and remarks lead me to believe you are a member of Antioch's congregation, and I am concerned this close relationship would impair your ability to write about the organization objectively, as evidenced by you wanting "more positives" in this article.

Wdonghan (talk) 02:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)