User talk:AirshipJungleman29
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Timurid Banner
Hi, the banner shown on the Timurid page is described as such by the source. If need be I can send scans of the book to show this HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Hi HetmanTheResearcher, the source describes banners with a variety of cut-outs, but always topped with a tugh and the Islamic crescent. The banner previously shown at Timurid Empire showed a singular, seemingly-randomly-chosen cut-out, without the tugh and the Islamic crescent. It is thus a pretty poor representation of a Timurid banner, seeing as the two things which most defined him as a ruler (his Mongol heritage and his Islamic religion) have been excluded.
- There is also the question, to which I don't know the answer, of whether this banner was used only by Timur, in which case it is out of place on a Timurid Empire article, or by his successors too, in which case an argument can be made.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. The source shows both a tugh and Islamic crescent, but being unaware of their importance in Mongol heraldry I didn't add them. I can add these in to better reflect the Mongol and Islamic aspects of the empire. The red banner shown is described as one of a variety used by Timur, I used it since that is what the accompanying illustration shows.
- As for the scope the banner was used, I don't see this as a problem. Almost no banner or flag has been continually used by a country or state since their inception yet this does not prevent symbols from a specific time period being used. Even if the banner was only used during the time of Timur (I don't know either) it still forms an important part of Timurid heraldry that should be added onto the article. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- It probably should be in the article HetmanTheResearcher, the question is whether it should be in the infobox. An infobox is meant to summarize the entirety of the topic; putting a banner possibly only used for much less than half of a historical state's existence is actively misleading. There have been similar discussions at Talk:Yuan dynasty and Talk:Mongol Empire. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- The infobox should reflect more what scholarly sources say about the topic. If studies of the Timurid Empire focus a majority of their effort on the time of Timur Khan rather than his successors then the banner in Timur's time period should be shown. However I'm not knowledgeable on Timurid historiography so I won't press the matter. Would adding the banner in the "Symbols of the state" subsection, with the changes discussed above, work? HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I think they would. Thanks for this productive discussion HetmanTheResearcher. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- The infobox should reflect more what scholarly sources say about the topic. If studies of the Timurid Empire focus a majority of their effort on the time of Timur Khan rather than his successors then the banner in Timur's time period should be shown. However I'm not knowledgeable on Timurid historiography so I won't press the matter. Would adding the banner in the "Symbols of the state" subsection, with the changes discussed above, work? HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- It probably should be in the article HetmanTheResearcher, the question is whether it should be in the infobox. An infobox is meant to summarize the entirety of the topic; putting a banner possibly only used for much less than half of a historical state's existence is actively misleading. There have been similar discussions at Talk:Yuan dynasty and Talk:Mongol Empire. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)