Talk:Super Saiyan

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Requirments, Benifits

Drat, i lost my password. Anyhoo, there seems to be a bit of dissagreement between sources that I want cleared up. Some websites claim that you need to be a high power level to transform, but do not state anything about multiplied power level. Others say nothing about required power level but claim that the transformation greatly increases power. And others, such as this article, seem to claim that you need to be a sufficient power level, and it increases power. I think we should put the generally accepted theory here, unless it already is, or if there isnt one. So what is it? -Purple Pikmin

Archived

OK, I archived it. The discussions actively going on had nothing to do with the article. Don't bring them up again. Nemu 17:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What the hell dude. DONT delete my last comment on there (in my "Broly is stronger than you guys think" thread) and then hide it and disable the editing tool so that I cant reply! This is pissing me off. I KNOW I am right! Jrapidfire 07:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It was not deleted it was moved into Archive 2. If you feel so strongly about the subject. Just (create a new one but make sure it has something to do with the article ok. Also stop getting upset, you are taking this WAY TOO personal. Trust me its not good, I know. So calm down and just restart the subject if you feel the need to.

Heat P 09:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? It is relevant to the article. We ARE talking about Super Saiyans here are we not? Jrapidfire 08:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the fourth bullet in the first box and the full box right below it. Nemu 11:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed Up descriptions

I fixed up the descriptions of the forms, they are fairly easy to read and are clear in the descriptions, hopefully you guys like them. Majinvegeta

Is "Quasi" the right word?

I've never heard of an incomplete Super Saiyan being referred to as "Quasi", Quasi is French and means "half", but still, is this word appropriate to use considering that Dragonball Z has nothing to do with the French language? Majinvegeta

Giji translates most commonly to quasi or psuedo from what I saw in the dictionaries. False was also there, but it was less common. Nemu 23:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

We should use A) The most popular name and B) Something English (or Japanese if it really needs to be) for it, not French.--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 03:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Giji means "false" just as much as it means "quasi" and "psuedo". Giji is used in the Daizenshuu. Giji fits with the theme. Giji has been in use for a long time on this article with no negative repercussions, and was only changed recently because one or two people are obssessed with changing it to what they want and revert any changes back to the original name. I believe we should stick with Giji, or, if "ZOMG WE HAVE TO USE ENGLISH B CUZ THIS IS ENGLISH WIKIPEDIA! ROFLMAO!!!!1!!11eleven" people really insist on it, "False".

Daishokaioshin 03:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree 100% with Dai. Giji is in the Daizenshuu, Giji is most commonly used, and Giji has been in use until now with no complaints.--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 03:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree!!!Heat P 09:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not just about using English. It's also about making sense. Really I doubt people causally reading feel like looking up giji. That also brings up the fact that none of the other names take the Japanese names. Just because the name was never used in the movie, we should use one Japanese word out of eight others? I don't know if it's just me, but that looks silly. Until the article is named "sūpā saiyajin" leave it as an English word. I don't really care if it get put back as false, but don't change it back to giji because you find it to be more correct than some English word. Nemu 11:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Giji is used in the Daizenshuu. I'm pretty sure Quasi and Pseudo are fan-made terms. Giji Super Saiyan is also more commonly used than False (I don't think anybody really uses False anyway). I don't see any reason not to use it just because it's Japanese. This is the English Wikipedia, but if a Japanese word is used more tan the English one, what's the point in using the Eng one? Besides, it meantions all 3 other names as well.--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 22:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Densetsu no Sûpâ Saiyajin is also used by the Daizenshuu. Why don't we rename LSS to that? Because that translates to Legendary Super Saiyan? Giji isn't its own unique word with its own meaning that we're changing by translating it. It's a Japanese word that can mean quasi, pseudo, false or some other variants. To use it just because a few people think it's more proper to use it, doesn't mean we should. Why exactly is it more proper anyways? Nemu 22:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

And is false really the correct word to use? We're describing it as a half-way point or something that's sort of there. To say it's false is to say it's not really a Super Saiyan one bit. Quasi and pseudo fit more of the half-way/semi there part of it. Nemu 23:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks whoever changed it, It looks better and recognizable to a DBZ fan. If you really want to get technical with Purely English Names, I think the best description would be "incomplete Super Saiyan", because it is a half transformation, but the power is nowhere near half way (according to the Daizenshuu). But of course, "Incomplete Super Saiyan" is a name made by me. I agree, False isn't the right word to use. False in my best understanding, as pertaining to this means "imitation", and Giji Super SAiyan is not an imitation because it has only some of the characteristics of a true Super Saiyan. Majinvegeta

So, anyone plan on responding to me? Nemu 11:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll respond Nemu. I see your point, but I don't think it should be used because it is not a common enough name, or at least not as common as Giji Super Saiyan. I think it is better if it is kept in the text or discriptions. The other names I have suggested changing too, but people have resorted, simply because the names I propose aren't common enough. I have suggested that "Full Power Super Saiyan" be changed to "Mastered Super Saiyan", because it explains the form entirely (controlled behavioral effects as well as total ki control), But as I said, the usage of that name is less common. I think we could debate your point, but then we would start debates about other anime names, one example of this already happening is the issue on the Naruto article about "Uzumaki Naruto," or "Naruto Uzumaki" (Personally I think it should've been changed to "Uzumaki Naruto", the official English mangas use the original Japanese context of the names, and those are the most accurate when it comes to canon references, but of course the lovely website called Wikipedia doesn't allow discussions of "canon" and "non-canon"). Majinvegeta

I really don't think the most common name applies to this. It's one word that means false. I really don't see why using giji makes it better. People use is because it sounds better. Just because it sounds better, doesn't mean it's correct. Also, your "Mastered Super Saiyan" idea doesn't apply. That's an original name. False, ect. aren't. They're just translations(something the people for giji don't seem to understand). Someone just answer, why only one Japanese name? Nemu

Stop obssessing over names.

Daishokaioshin 10:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I'm sick of people randomly leaving when they have decided that they've won without actually deciding anything. Nemu 13:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey just calm down. What they are trying to say is that Giji is the most commonly used name thats be used for years. Its used in nearly every offical and non offical sources on Super Saiyans world wide including France. We get where you are coming from but why change it to Quasi when its been that way all this time? I really think it should stay as it is now. Don't get heated over that man, don't let it get to you. Its just a name more commonly used for that form.

Heat P 04:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I'm acting angry or anything. I get sort of annoyed at how people can take a really long time to respond, but I'm certainly not fuming over it. So we're keeping it because fans like it? I doubt any real official source would use it. We should be appealing to the average reader and not some random fans. To leave it untranslated just because some people use it more seems silly. Nemu 23:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It is in many offical places that mention that so call form. Plus it is used in the Diazenshuu with is offical material for Dragonball in Japan but i see what you mean about the translation problem since everything else has been translated. But until a english translation of the word comes just keep it for now. Because that french translation just doesn't go right. I go see if there is a true translation and i let you guys know and see what you say then but now let it stay. Thats cool? However when i hopefully find it and it does come out to mean as many said as Giji meaning false then its translated into what it says in the article, a False Super Saiyan. Heat P 16:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I Googled the word and I came up with so real interesting results, the word Giji has quite a few meanings when i transtaled it into English and believe it or not all of you guys and gals seem to be right but to some extent you are wrong too. Here's how. Giji means suspected (pref), quasi-, pseudo-, sham, and false from Japanese to English, and it also means character of questionable form and means questionable word(not that word but the meaning of other words). So Quasi Super Saiyan, False Super Saiyan, and Pseudo Super Saiyan all seem right when at first, however checking out the other words, I came up with some different results. False from English to Japanese means ese. So False Super Saiyan seems to be the wrong translation for that. Quasi a Italian word, not french word was put into English and means almost or nearly. So in Italy Quasi Super Saiyan is right but not in America. Pseudo, a Croatian word means bogus. So Pseudo Super Saiyan is close in Croatian but not in the English. So in reality Giji truly translated into English only means Suspected and Sham. However the prefered uses of Giji is Suspected. So in reality the translation for Giji Supa Saiyaijn is Suspected Super Saiyan. Does make more sense. If you wanna check it out yourselves Google the words as Giji, Translation togther and many sites will come up, but check out Eudict.com and you get translations I have explained. hope that help you out Nemu?Heat P 07:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You did your reasoning and research somewhat wrong. Giji means all of those things. None of them is more correct or wrong than each other. Different words will mean different things. Some will translate into the same words. That doesn't make those any less correct. Also quasi has a Latin origin. Even if it was of Italian origin, it was adopted into the English language. That means it's a fully valid word. It’s the same with pseudo; it comes from a Greek word (pseudein). I am not an expert in language, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Nemu 11:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I did my research on a Tranlation site. A legit translation site. go check it out. So in a more common translation for the word giji the word suspected (again a more common translation) is a more buyable translation for it not quasi or pseudo despite quasi coming real close and pseudo meaning bogus in the english language. I gave you that site to check out. Did you or you wanna put you opinion on my research saying its wrong. yes giji means all those things as I said before but when i translated those word into english the other words came up with other meanings in the english language and i also translated them into japanese with the some of the same results. So despite the true origins for those word Quasi and being adopted by the english language, so you say. The word giji is more commomly translated to the words suspected and sham. Where did you translate the word? also i tried to translate the words Quasi from english to japanese and you know what? it said that word can not be found in the english language to translate. But Pseudo come up as giji, so i will give you that. So you say Quasi is vaild? maybe but as of the english, i shall repeat it to ENGLISH language giji is again more commomly translated into suspected and sham, maybe even pseudo but not Quasi as you would like to use.Heat P 12:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But I will say this one more time, all those word are under Giji. However being this the English version of Wikipedia we need to use English wording, not the original Greek, not the original Latin, not Italian, not Croarian, not French, English translation and/or the original language wording that it came from, as seen in Giji being used in the article to title that form. So Giji is translated in English as False,Suspected,Sham, and Pseudo(I still do not think it should be used) and one of those names as false was used to title that form of Super Saiyan should be the one used as the translation.Heat P 12:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you use a random site like Babel fish that has very bad translations or some decent to good dictionary sites? I looked at around five of those a while back and most gave psuedo, quasi and false. I just think as long as an actual English word is chosen, it's fine. Mixing English and Japanese in the name (it should be either "Giji Sûpâ Saiyajin" or "whatever Super Saiyan", not a mix) and picking it just because fans think it sounds cool is stupid. Nemu 18:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Now i finally see what you mean. Instead of it being named Giji Super Saiyan it needs that english translation instead of what it says now? Got you. Well i do agree on that. But the Site I went to is called www.Eudict.com. Thats where i did the translation. I do disagree on using those two words. I say it has to be a more common english word. Not a word people that come to this site have to look up to figure out the meaning. But I do agree if it needs to be translated, that does need to be fixed. That japanese/english mix is not the right way. But until everyone can come to an agreement it seems it will say the way it is, or there will be a debate again and someone again getting threaten to get banded of the site. Heat P 10:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a question. Did Movie 4 come out before Goku did the actual Super Saiyan transformation in the manga or after? We all know that it came out before the anime version, but if it came out before the manga then it may help with the discussion you guys are having about the why the translation of the word giji. I mean if it came before then false is not the word to use since the movie came first, but if it came after then false maybe the word to use. SSD4

The movie Super Saiyajin Goku came out in March 19 1991. Manga volume 27 title Legendary Super Saiyajin came out in August 1991. But what you mean?Heat P 17:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You said the movie came 1st. So it means false should not be used as it is now in the article next to giji super saiyan despite being one of the translated words. I agree with you and Nemu that either suspected or quasi or even pseudo should be used. If the movie came first then it should be believe that many fans thought the giji was the first real SS formed used until volume 27 came out where the author fix that problem. Despite it being a movie its not fake or is it false. It was suspected to be super saiyan at 1st until the real super saiyan came. Then it showed it to be a halfway point. So as i said you and Nemu are right. I say move false and put one or both the other translations on the article next to Giji Supa Saiyajin.SSD4

Ok so I wanna ask my fellow Dragonball Fans like myself a question. We have the translated words for Giji. So I ask you guys and gals do we keep it as such or go on and come to an agreement on which word to translate for the title of the GSSJ form? Should we keep it Giji Super Saiyan with False Super Saiyan translated in the desciption paragraph or title it with such translations as False SSJ, Suspected SSJ, Quasi SSJ, Pseudo SSJ, or "Questionable Form" SSJ or Questionable SSJ Form (Giji also means questionable form). Just wondering what you guys and gals think? Heat P 19:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If you did change that Nemu I think I can live with that. Thats good we got a translation on the word and you got the other translated name along side it so people can understand what it means. Good job if it was you Nemu. Heat P 03:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

HEY!!! Why is someone changing the title of GSSJ to a translation of the word then someone else changing it back? Can you people figure out what you want? Come to an agreement and leave the name alone. That is irratating seeing people do that. Is it that hard? You guys got the translations, Fix it. Stop playing cat and mouse on the article. You confusing the heck out off people. SSD4 07:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

We have ALREADY AGREED REPEATEDLY to use Giji SSJ. It is only Nemu and a few other people obsessed with using only names they want to use that keep changing it back. We're using "Giji" or "False". Not "Psuedo" not "Quasi" not "Mid". The only place this transformation is named is in the Daizenshuu. What's the name given? "Giji". Every other name used is a fan-name. I would support 100% a move for this article from "Super Saiyan" to "Super Saiyajin" (why not "Supa" Saiyajin? Because Super is an accurate English loan word, and Saiyajin is a name for a people. If you want to switch to "Supa", however, feel free), and a changing of all the names to the romanized names, rather than whatever the hell names are that we're currently using. However, it isn't necessary. Giji is the only official name we have to work with. Everything else is fan-mush. If it's not changed any more, everything will be fine. It's not hurting anything, it's accurate, it's correct, it's fine how it is.

Daishokaioshin 08:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well you seem to be forgetting this is a English version of Wikipedia not the Japanese version. So anything and everything on the encyclopedia has to and need to be translated so it can be understand by the average people that read is site. Giji is a Japanese word that has to be translated. So the title of that "form" needs a translated word. Nothing is really fan based. The word has many translations and need to be. USE ONE!! If so many wanna use False then title the form as False, don't put it in the description paragraph. Some kid gets on this site and looks at the word and has to ask mommy or daddy what it means and they don't even know. Ya we my "Obsesse" over that but it has to be fixed. We "obsessed" fans disagree with the Japanese word being used because a Japanese book Daizenshuu that was translated a while back by someone that didn't know what the word meant left it as it was. At first I ageed with you but now I don't. I gave you all the translated words and you ignored them. It's the one obsessed with keeping it that is also giving problems not just the ones that disagree with it.

Supa translated is Super. Saiyan was coined by someone at Pioneer and/or Funimation for English use making it readible and understandable by Americans. Same as scientist coining a being that would have lived on Mars, Martians. If Dragonball did not excite in America then eveything would be fine but since it made it's way here. EVERYTHING that is in Dragonball needs to be translated for Americans to read.Heat P 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Man you guys are really killing me. Can we come to a unanimous agreement. I have check this page at less six times today and the word has been changed at less three time. Can't we all just get along? Heat P 12:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Part of what you said was true. This is the English Wikipedia. However, it is not the "American" Wikipedia. We don't have to change things so that Americans can understand, just so that English-speakers can understand it. False works for a name, if Giji is so objectionable. However, I don't appreciate you saying I am obssessed. I barely spend any time here anymore, let alone sitting here and reverting every time someone changes a name, because I don't like someone using a name other than what I like. I never referred to you as being obssessed. That was a comment on the seeming fixation Nemu/TTN/whoever has with names. It's always, "We should be consistent!" and "We should use one set of names for things instead of being elitists!" and then when someone tries to enforce his suggestions, and use a certain set of names, he starts a big debate over whether the names being used are right, because they aren't the ones he wants to see on here. If any of this is incorrect, then I apologize in advance to Nemu. This is just how it appears to me, from observing past behavior and participating in past conversations. I could be entirely wrong. But if I'm not, then I think that there is a problem that needs to be addressed concerning whether being consistent is best, or "being consistent with using Nemu's preferred names".

Additionally, I didn't ignore any of the information you provided, Heat P. It was very useful. The problem was that some OTHER people decided to question the information, in order to push forward their own article agendas, rather than accept what you said. I think False works great for a name. We were using it before it was changed to Giji, and I only supported Giji because it's the only official name given. It is also already translated into English letters. Do we need to translate "Kami" into an English equivalent, because it's a Japanese word? What about "Bushido"? "Igo"? "Sushi"? They've already been translated from the original Japanese language, into English. If you say that we need to write out the definition of every word from another language, then I counter by saying that a definition can be provided to accompany the word, without replacing a word already in English with a literal translation.

Feel free to disagree, but since False seems to have been what people have decided on, let's leave it how it is.

Daishokaioshin 00:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Na i wont disagree. I agree. It's cool. Just happy (I hope) that something was finally agreed uppone. Everything you wrote made sense to me. It's ok with me. Heat P 12:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Good Job Guys

I like the way this article is turning out, it is more sophisticated and detailed then the older one and it is highly accurate in descriptions. And even the original names of the forms are included in the text. Please continue with the cleanups and give yourselves a pat on the back! :) Majinvegeta

In popular culture section

Should we make one? It has been made fun of in various parodies. So far I can recall it being made fun of on Codename: Kids Next Door(Some episode, forget the deatails), Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo(Both in a special chapter and in the series in general), Neko Majin Z(obvious) and on a Saturday Night Live skit. Can anyone else remember some others? Should we also mention the story or whatever the Super Saiyan was based of off somewhere(opening or something)? Nemu 22:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, if we can find sources, maybe we should mention Super Sonic and I think a couple of other game series. We'll need definite sources seeing as they could just be based off of the folk tale or whater turning gold comes from(I think it's some sort of Japanese/Chinese folk tale or something). Nemu 22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't find a source at the moment, but I thought I once read Trey Parker and Matt Stone say the scene in South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut where Cartman shorts out his V chip was a parody of Super Saiyans. Electricity flies around him, his hair stands on end, and as he shouts off swear-words he fires off Dragon Ball-esque energy attacks. Did Megas XLR ever do one? THey parodied just about everything else. Onikage725 01:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

FPSSJ

A note on the recent edit/revert. While Im inclined to agree that others mastered the form inthe next saga, nothing was really said on it in the manga or anime. In fact the form itself isnt really a new form. It was a certain level of mastery over the base SSJ form (as opposed to 2nd/3rd grade), and was only labeled in the Daizenshuu. So, given the lack of specific information, adding other characters would count as original research. Onikage725

I agree with what your saying, i think the FPSSJ section should be merged with the SSJ section; simply talking about how goku and gohan planned to adjust to living normaly in the form to gain an advantage while fighting(similar to the use of weighted clothing) -Evirus 69.14.33.214 07:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Onio

Why include Onio? You reliaze it is just a self-parody. You won't find Onio in the manga of Dragonball Z or in the anime. Let's just stick to dragonball z and dragonball GT. What is next other super saiyan parodys will be included like No.4 from Kids Next Door and Bo-bobo?

Stop deleting it, it'll get you blocked, and it was already decided that we list Onio, okay?--SUIT 05:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Unlike those other parodies, Onio is a Saiyan. Neko Majin may be a parody, but it's by Akira Toriyama and the character is a Super Saiyan. Onikage725 21:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I argee. Being a Saiyan, Super Saiyan and a Akira Toriyama created character on a self parody created by AT, Onio is part of this article. Don't bring Bo-bobo or KND on this. They are created by different people and studios as well as THEY ARE NOT SAIYANS.Heat P 09:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. He is not in the manga or in the anime. Its just a joke since fat saiyans really can't go super saiyan in the manga and anime. Onio shouldn't be included. He also has a saiyan wife and there were no surviving female saiyans after Planet Vegeta was destroyed. The article is about real saiyans not fake ones.

What does the articles say that Onio is in? Saiyan and Super Saiyan. And if you wanna talk about real saiyans then Broly doesn't need to be here. In the Saiyan article Broly, Paragus, Tullece, And every saiyan in Bardock's special, except Bardock should not be in that article. As they are not in the actual anime or manga, but they are. Joke or not he is a Saiyan created by Akria Toriyama that is in a manga. These Saiyan articles is not direct articles on Dragonball despite them talking about Dragonball characters. Those are other articles. This and the other Saiyan article are articles directly about Saiyans. If the articles directly said something like Saiyans of Dragonball then thats a different story. But they say Saiyan and Super Saiyan. Leave it at that. Heat P 10:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It should be left with the dragonball z continuity. After all you won't find neko majin Z thats been translated in your local store. We should stick to those who did become super saiyans in the manga, anime, and dbz movies. Next thing you know you would probably but Broly as a giji super saiyan since he looks like one in movie 7. Broly is more canon than Onio. Just leave Onio in the Neko Majin Z article not the super saiyan article. You won't find Onio in Budokia Tenkaichi 2 why? Because he is a parody not a character that is actually in the dragonball Z series.

We are not to discuss canonicity or keep or eliminate information based on canonicity within or for articles. Broly isn't "more canon" than Onio. He is completely and utterly non-canon. But that doesn't have any impact on whether he is included in this article or not. He is a Super Saiyan. He is thus included. Onio is a Super Saiyan. He is thus included. You thinking we "should" do something doesn't have any bearing on what we WILL do. We're including Onio. Please stop vandalizing the article by removing valid information.

Daishokaioshin 22:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In response to the text you added: Videogames are as far from canon as you can get. Nothing that occurs within a videogame like Budokai Tenkaichi 2 or any other has anything to do with the actual series, either manga or anime. They have "what-if" storylines in which Zarbon turns against Freeza, and Raditz gets amnesia. So making an argument against including a "non-canon" Saiyajin by using a non-canon medium is inherently flawed. Also, there are a lot of characters that weren't in Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2. That doesn't mean they have any less or greater right to be included in articles. Brolli wasn't included in Dragon Ball Z: Budokai or its sequel, Budokai 2. Does that mean he shouldn't be included in this article? A character's presence or lack thereof within a videogame does not impact this article in any way, shape, or form.

Daishokaioshin 03:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I argee with Dai and your statement about Video games. You need to do your research because despite the Neko Majin characters not present in US Dragonball game because the manga hasn't been republished here, they have be present and in some cases playable characters in some japanese dragonball games such as Japan's Budokai 3.

Now you Broly GSSJ statement is wrong and has been discussed many times. The color he has while in SSJ form is because of the device Paragus had on his son which affect his control of his powers, which still had a color affect on Broly in his fully LSS transformed state. OH ya since you wanna bring games in this, When Broly is shown in his SSJ form in Budokai Tenkaichi 2 what does he look like, what form is he in, and what is its color? The same form with the same color as the one you wanna call GSSJ. So by BT2 and other real facts about Broly, that form is a SSJ1 form not GSSJ.

Do you read the archives up top. All this has been discussed, debate, and agreed appone. Onio stays because and again he is a Akira Toriyama Super Saiyan character. This is a article on Super Saiyan characters, not a article on the manga or anime of Dragonball. Onio is a SSJ. Broly is a full SSJ in movie 7 not giji. read and research please, read and research.Heat P 09:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Saiyans and super saiyans comes from the dragonball z series. You shouldn't include saiyans from works outside of the dragonball continuity. Onio doesn't fit in there anyways. There are other saiyan parodys that is not included. In movie 7 when Broly goes "SSJ" his hair isn't yellow. The movie doesn't explain why Broly hair is different when he is a "SSJ". Just because Onio is created by AT doesn't mean he should be listed. Well at least mention that Onio is just a sayian parody and does not exist in the dragonball Z continutiy is only in the magna parody of dragonball z. You are giving mix messages about who can become super saiyan when including Onio.

Stop going off topic about Broly (his hair was like that because of the device on his head, if you read the Broly article, you'd know that, and it's moie 8, not 7). And Onio, is a character made by Toriyama, so regardless, he's an official saiyan.--SUIT 03:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Onio is an unofficial saiyan. What made you change your minds anyways? You mispell movie by the way. You guys use to agree that it is irreverent to add Onio. Super Saiyans do exist outside of Neko Majin Z as well. Onio is only a joke thats all. Lets not go outside of the dragonball continuity. It wouldn't hurt to not include Onio. Theres already an article about Neko Majin Z anyways.

Onio is a saiyan. He is stated to be a saiyan in a manga by AT. No other parody has ever had one of the charaters call themselves saiyans. This is not limited to Dragon Ball. You should realize this by now. Nemu 04:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about calling Broly's 1st movie movie 7. Thats on me. My bad Suit. Now to the guy that as no IP. You seem to have you mind made up. However the rest of us discussing this sees Onio as a Saiyan that can and is included in the article. So I got a Question to you? How is Onio a unofficial saiyan? Like I closely said earlier up top if you wanna call him unofficial, false, fake, or a joke than all other saiyans that appear in movies and in Bardock's special other than Bardock himself should not be including in any article that involves saiyans. But they are. You keep trying to say things that just doesn't make sense. And despite again it being a joke it is part of Dragonball believe it or not. If it is not than tell us why AT included Goku, Vegeta and Buu in that manga? I see if he put those three in it that in itself makes it part of the Dragonball community.Heat P 19:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Onio is linked to Neko Majin page. If people wanna know more about him all they need to do is click on his name and it will go the Neko Majin's page and explain there. We do not need to put the parody or not part of dragonball z on this page. It explains all about him on Neko Majin's page. So it will not hurt to leave him in the article.Heat P 19:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

What I meant about Neko Majin being part of Dragonball community is despite it not being canon as some people feel GT is non canon as well as the movies, it involves Dragonball characters. So Neko Majin and NMZ are similiar to GT and the movies but manga wise. So even though it's a non canon manga it is part of the Dragonball community just as GT, the movies and even the Dr. Slump manga is.Heat P 19:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Onio shouldn't count as a super saiyan. It just doesn't seem to fit in. Does it directly say Onio is a saiyan or is implied?

Yes it does state and implies he is a Saiyan in the Neko Majin Z manga he appears in. I dont know the manga number off the top of my head. As well as Onio says he is a Super Saiyan. Also I wont edit it but while Googling the net I found out that it's possible that Onio's Saiyan wife was name Honey but I am not saying it for sure because i don't really believe myself. It my just be the common nickname a husband or wife gives to their spouse. Just something I thought I should mention. Does anyone really know her name by any chance? Heat P 05:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If Onio is taken off then Broly, Goku Jr, Vegeta Jr, Giji Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 need to be taken off as well as they're all largely considered non-canon as well. All information from movies, such as SSJ Goku losing control of the Genki Dama, also should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.252.212.47 (talk) 22:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

the user under IP 69.154.79.159 has removed Onio from the list 3 times already --Ditre 20:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok listen IP 69.154.79.159 and to anyone that doesn't feel Onio should stay. As you can see we have had a nice size discussion on this already. As IP 4.252.212.47 stated as well as myself earlier in the discussion, if Onio should not be on the list because he is non canon then the other non canon Super Saiyans and forms should not be on the list or page but they will stay as well as Onio. Stop remving Onio. He is part of the DB universe as a non canon manga character like Broly a non canon movie character.

Heat P 09:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Broly is canon. Just because he is not in magna and the anime doesn't mean he is not canon take Garlic Jr for example. Neko Majin Z is not in the dragonball Continutiy even though there are cameos of dragonball Z characters. Neko Majin Z is about a Cat name Z which has nothing to do with the dragon ball continuity. The movies are canon. Many stories has plot holes and continuity errors in it so deal with it. Why list Neko Majin Z what's next Robot Chicken since it has cameos of dragonball Z characters in it? It won't hurt to not put Onio on the list. Lets just stick with dragonball, dragonball Z, and dragonball GT. Just leave Onio on the Neko Majin Z page.

Who cares if he's canon? It was just a parody. A joke. Goku Jr., Broly, ect, all had something to do with DB, and their appearences had influence on their specific stories. What was Onio's contribution to DB, DBZ, and DBGT? Nothing. To NMZ? A few pages of humor. It wasn't meant to be taken seriousley. If Toriyama made a character in one of his new mangas that was completley unrelated to DBZ (like NMZ) a Super Saiyan for two panels as a joke, would he be listed too?--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 07:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The list of super saiyans are not all from the dragonball contiuity. So all the super saiyan on the list are the list of the ones Toriyama created?

If you remove Onio for being non-canon, that'd be fine with me but you'll also have to remove Broly, False Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 since they're non-canon too.

Saying that Broly, False Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 are not canon is an opinion not a fact. Onio is the only one that is not canon since he is not in the dragonball continuity. Please don't include super saiyan parodies especially from neko majin Z and TV funhouse.

just because he isn't part of the Dragon ball continuity doesn't dismiss him from the list, its about super saiyans, not the continuity, and Akira Toriyama being the actual maker of the series makes Onio an actual saiyan and not just fan art --Ditre 19:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

pariodies don't count. Onio is irreverent and inconstant. Let's just leave where it was before Onio was put on. It was only a joke and not meant to be put on the super saiyan list. Lets limit to the dragonball continutiy.

Akira Toriyama's word and creations count whether they're parody or not. Toriyama invented Super Saiyan 1, and he invented Onio. He stays.

Onio is inconsistent with what? the dragon ball continuity? well the title of this article isn't Super Saiyans (Dragon Ball) its just Super Saiyan, and toriyama gets to make actual super saiyans outside of the dragon ball continuity if he wants to, like i said, hes not fan art, Onio is an actual making of Toriyama's work. you need to read the rest of whats here instead of just adding "onio shouldn't be on the list omygawdz" --Ditre 05:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I see some of you still don't wont Onio on the list? TOO BAD, this Super Saiyan stays. Like it or not. As for the person that said that stuff is not canon is an opinion must not be looking at the right stuff. The movie are non canon to the actual series making all exclusive movie characters and other thing non canon to the series with makes them NON CANON. The only real exception is GT. That there is an opinion on if it is canon or non canon. However Wikipedia is not the place to discuss with is or isn't non canon and what is. And as I said before and Ditre just said the article is called Super Saiyan not Super Saiyan (Dragon Ball). Also who are you to say that pariodies don't count? that is you opinion. Toriyama's works, arts and creations do count. If not then Dr Slump characters that have appeared in Dragon Ball wouldn't count and they do appear on a few Dragon Ball articles, also in Neko Majin Z three Dragon Ball characters appear so that shows you Toriyama's creations do have the right to been any article that refers to his work as many have been in each others mangas. Dragon Ball, Dr. Slump, Neko Majin, Dragon Boy, Sandland, any Toriyama work if they appear in the manga or have something to do with the article as Onio being a Saiyan and a Super Saiyan has something to do with both articles. I see you not on the Saiyan and List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball articles fighting to keep Onio off it. So he stays.

Heat P 15:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Movies are Canon. Take the Garlic Junior saga for example. Onio is only a joke. There are other parodies that have other super saiyans in it. Onio is more of a fan work done by Toriyama than an actual creation. Movies are part of the dragonball series. Onio should be removed. He doesn't match the dragonball continuity. Goku appeared in Robot Chicken but I don't hear you arguing about it. Lets just stick with the anime, movies, and dragonball series manga.

What other parodies has Super Saiyans been shown in that says they are Saiyans. Neko Majin is not a fan work done by Toriyama it ia a actual creation work. How can he make fan work for his own creations? And about Robot Chicken, it was mentioned on Goku's page in a triva section that was removed about that but was taken off to make the article smaller as is has been suggested to make the article small. Thats why we don't agrue about that subject. Again what makes movies canon? The Garilc Jr saga was done only for one reason to slow down the anime from catching the manga. Question was the Garlic Jr saga been mention anymore on DBZ after that. No. It is the only saga or villain never mention or seen again in the series. The only reason people consider it canon is because it took place in the series but has no place in it. Also if you haven't noticed in most character's articles the movies are not even mentioned themselves not the villians not the story, none of it. But again and again it is a article about Super Saiyans and in the desription below the title it says what anime and manga this characters come from. You need to stop look at one article and look bigger. Because if we remove Onio then we need to remove Onio from all the Saiyan articles, remove the other Saiyan named Onion mentioned in the List or Saiyans from that list, remove Kuriza who is despite being in a parody is said to be and is considered Freeza's son from Freeza, and Coola article and yes his name is in these articles as well as remove their names as well as King Cold's from Kuriza article, and remove characters from Dr Slump that appear in the Dragon Ball series from Dragon Ball articles. So if you suggest we remove Toriyama created characters that have been truly associated with the Dragon Ball universe that has there own Toriyama created mangas and anime then EVERY character outside of the actual Dragon Ball series that have been in or associated with the series needs to be removed. Stop looking at one article just because you only look at this article.

Heat P 12:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Those are opinions not facts. Frieza never had a son. Neko Majin Z is not part of the dragonball series. Yes it would be a good idea to remove Onio from the saiyan list. Just leave Onio and Kuriza in the Neko Majin Z page. The Super Saiyan page is suppose explain about where super saiyans came from and what they are. Listing a Parody will confuse things and make it sounds irreverent to the article. Plus it is unlikely that a fat saiyan could become a super saiyan anyways not to mention his hair is too short but that is just an opinion just like yours.

What is an opinion? None of what I have mentioned is an opinion. None of them. Despite it being a self parody of Toriyama, it is mentioned in it the Kuriza is Freeza's son. That is not an opinion that is a fact. Onio mentioned he is a Saiyan and transformed into a Super Saiyan, that is a fact. The reason Garlic Jr saga filler was made was to slow the anime down because it caught up to the manga, that is a fact. The only opinion on my statement is the last part of my reply that starts with "So if you suggest we remove Toriyama created characters ".

You still don't seem to get it. These articles about Saiyans except maybe one is about Saiyans in Toriyama work not just Dragon Ball. So if Toriyama made another manga or Self Parody with Saiyans or other race or things in it that were introduce in Dragon Ball they be in this and similar articles. That is why Onio stays. Only about two or three of you guys disagree with it but the majority rules here and he stays on all the Saiyan articles. If someone feels so confused about it, all they need to do is click on Onio's name and it will send you to his part of the list of Saiyan article explaining him. No confusion there.

If Super Saiyan article is just suppose to explain what a Super Saiyan is and where they come from then all the names listed should be gone since they really do nothing to explain where a Super Saiyan comes from. Only Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, M.Trunks and Broly should be somewhere in the article because they all have been the first to introduce, transform and use one of this Super Saiyan forms and power ups explained in the article. You really are not making any sense in you disagreement about Onio.

And how is it unlikely a fat Saiyan can become a Super Saiyan? If to 7 and 8 year old half Saiyans can become Super Saiyans with out the conditions many thought Saiyans need to have to become one why not a fat Saiyan? Dragon Ball and Neko Majin are not suppose to make any sense like many other anime, manga, cartoon, or certain movies out there don't. We can not use common sense to explain a fantasy world. And don't bring some dumb a-- excuse about short hair. I will not get into that. One other thing who are you anyway. Would be nice if you had a IP address.

Heat P 12:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Neko Majin Z is not actually part of the Dragonball continuity. It is just a parody making fun of stuff from Dragonball Z. Parodies shouldn't be listed. It is very confusing. Frieza is probably alive in Neko Majin Z since he has a son. In the dragonball Z Frieza was killed by Trunks. The reason the message before you said a fat saiyan is unlikely to become a super saiyan is because Fat Gogeta and Fat Gotenks couldn't become Super Saiyans. It does make sense that really really short hair saiyans probably couldn't become super saiyans since the hair won't stand up. Onio should be on a separate page that explains Neko Majin Z.

That is the thing. Dragon Ball is not suppose to make sense. It is a Fantasy story. But I know you have your opinion but until we can all come to a right agreement he has to stay. No matter how much we discuss it it doesn't seem it will be fixed unless others come on and have their say in it. it has to be a majority on if he stays or goes. Go to WP:DBZ and put you suggestion in so it can be agreed uppone.

Heat P 13:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

it wouldn't be a good idea to give onio his own page, there isn't enough information on him to justify it --Ditre 22:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You could just leave Onio in the Neko Majin Z page instead of listing him in the Super Saiyan page. I guess you guys feel strongley about Onio being on the super saiyan list despite it being a parody. I just hope you guys don't go too far and put other parodies in there like Kobayashi going Super Saiyan in TV Funhouse. You guys are probably going to put other super saiyan parodies in there since you feel so strongely about it. Is Onio the only super saiyan in Neko Majin Z?

Onio's included because he was created by Akira Toriyama--SUIT^-n-tie 05:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Suit is right. That is the main reason why Onio is on the page. Because he is a Akira Toriyama created saiyan. No we will not put other parodies on here because this parodies that suppose to have saiyans or super saiyans is not a parody or self parody done by Mr. Toriyama himself. But if he created another manga with saiyans or super saiyans then they would be included but not other saiyans created by other authors or artists will be included unless they are offically and publicly excepted by Toriyama himself. Also Onio is the only Super Saiyan so far in Neko Majin Z. But he is not the only saiyan, his wife is but no name has been given or a picture of her was give so that is why she is not on any saiyan list.

Heat P 11:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone went and erased Onio and the the part about the self-parody Neko Majin at the top of the page. I decided to just leave it alone myself because it is getting pointless to agrue over it, but I disagree with that since it was someone without a IP address that erased it that doesn't like that idea of Onio on the page and not a majority vote on keeping him on the page.

Heat P 18:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Onio must stay, whenever he is a self parody or not he is a Super Saiyan, the only real reason we have him here is because he was created by Toriyama is not like we are adding all kind of parodies here, other wise Muten Roshi would be on the list because of that short gag in Broli's movie. -Dark Dragon Flame 23:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

True SSJ Form

I had heard once that because all the Saiyan characters in DBZ learned how to become Super Saiyans, that the legend about being a Super Saiyan was really talking about the fourth form seen in GT, but I didn't see anything about that in the article. Is it just a rumor? Gladrius 15:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That's fan-theory and speculation. The legend was just a legend. It may have said that a Super Saiyan appears once every however many years, but since there was only ONE Super Saiyan prior to that, how would anyone know if there could be more than one? And what happens in Dragon Ball Z has nothing to do with Dragon Ball GT whatsoever. They are two seperate series. SSJ4 is something made up for GT and doesn't exist within the continuity of Dragon Ball Z.

Daishokaioshin 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the top part of what you said Daikaioshin, it is just a legend but how can you sit here and say that Dragonball GT has nothing to do with Dragonball Z whatsoever? Is Dragonball GT a anime spinoff of Dragonball Z? It's a series that takes place 10 years after Z, that has all to do with the stories Dragonball and Z gave us, right? Do not say its non canon either, we can not talk about fictional canonical here. If it is or isn't has no relevents here. Do not give a Original Reseach statement. The whatsoever part of your statement is your opinion. Yes it is. Argue if you want but do not say "And what happens in Dragon Ball Z has nothing to do with Dragon Ball GT whatsoever". It does. SSD4

Even though there are cameos of Dragonball Z characters in Neko Majin Z it is not part of the Dragonball Continutity. Notice there is no dragonball in its name. Neko Majin Z is about a cat name Z. After all Robot Chicken had dragonball Z characters but that is not being listed is it?

You shouldn't say dragonball GT is not canon after letting Onio on the super saiyan list.

I didn't say it was non-canon. I said absolutely NOTHING about canonicity. I said they were two seperate series. And I can provide any opinions I feel like on the talk page. I just can't introduce such into the ARTICLE ITSELF. Super Saiyajin 4 does not appear in Dragon Ball Z. It does NOT EXIST in Dragon Ball Z. The highest Super Saiyajin stage seen is SSJ3, with a brief mention of an "SSJ Oozaru". As for GT, countless things that happen in DBZ, even if they are important plot points, are blatantly ignored. GT is not DBZ. It is a seperate series. If you feel this is original research, that's nice, but I couldn't care less. I will say whatever I wish to, whether original research or not, and unless I introduce it into the article itself, you have absolutely NO justification for throwing rules at me. Try using that lump of fat in your head called a brain before talking again, hmm? :)

Daishokaioshin 07:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake." That includes opinions, personal outlashes, Original Research statement, and personal attacks but you seem to ignore the rule Wikipedia put on here just to put you SO-CALLED facts on this like you done may times before. This is not a discussion forum, It doesnt help fix or enhance the article. You have a nack for doing things like that i see. You need to read the rules and regulations on talk pages before something is done about it. This "If you feel this is original research, that's nice, but I couldn't care less. I will say whatever I wish to, whether original research or not, and unless I introduce it into the article itself, you have absolutely NO justification for throwing rules at me. Try using that lump of fat in your head called a brain before talking again, hmm? :)" statement is a prime example of how childish this 24 year old is. I have every RIGHT to throw a rule at you when you clearly break them. Nothing personal from or for me, it just business.

Now despite Dragonball GT being a so call seperate series it then dragonball Z it has just as much to do with Dragonball as anything in this encyclopedia that has Dragonball characters in it. You can't say something like GT has nothing to do with Z when it clearly does. Canon or not it is a anime spinoff of the orignal series of Dragonball and Z anime. Also what facts do toei clearly leave out or put in? The fusion of Gogeta. The black star balls? what?

When it comes to the legend NO there is no real truth to SS4 being the real super saiyan of legend. Only small clues but no truth to them. This is like any other legend. It's probably based on a one time event in Saiyan history. No one knows what the 1st Super Sayian looked like so no one knows the real truth behind the legend. So maybe for ANIME purposes SS4 could be or SS3? Maybe the Golden Oozaru is it? Or just the normal SSJ is the true SSJ of legend? No one on this side of the world knows the truth. SSD4

Dragonball GT is a sequel to Dragonball Z not spinoff. Broly is the Legendary Super Saiyan according to Movie 8.

Spinoff, sequel same difference. Broly is the so called Super Saiyan of legend in the movies. No i am not saying non canon or not. Just movies are not part of the actual series, it's just part of the DBZ contiunity. So again no one knows what the original SSJ looked like so no one can say if Broly is or Goku is. Goku in the anime in consider the legendary super saiyan, movie wise its Broly but no one knows for sure. SSD4

Okay. Look. Your opinion is that Dragon Ball GT is perfect, there's no incongruities, and you are completely justified in attacking me and throwing rules at me when I did nothing wrong. You have introduced your opinion into a talk page. You are guilty of what you just accused me of. Oh no. OR MAYBE you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You say I have done things "many times before" and "You have a nack for doing things like that i see." have no basis in reality, as you would know if you had actually observed things I have said in the past. I have attempted to get people NOT to treat Wikipedia as a forum, as you would know if you did ANY research whatsoever before making claims about people and what they "have a nack for". I did not launch any personal attacks. I recommended you use your brain before speaking, which you clearly have not. A brain is made of fat. I said to use the lump of fat in your head called a brain. How is that a personal attack? How is ANYTHING I said a personal attack? You calling me "childish" is the attack. You need to stop commenting on contributors and start commenting on the article. I have not introduced any original research or specualtion. You put words in my mouth with the canonicity thing, and you're putting words in my mouth further with all the crap you just said before.

Dragon Ball GT is NOT Dragon Ball Z. If Dragon Ball GT was Dragon Ball Z it would be called Dragon Ball Z and not Dragon Ball GT. It. Is. Commmon. Sense. Something you seem to have a distinct lack of. Stop going after me for your dillusions of rule breaking and start contributing to the article instead of being a dipwad. (Note, I'm not saying you ARE a dipwad, I am saying DON'T BE ONE as your commentary is dangerously close to making you seem like one).

Super Saiyajin 4 does NOT APPEAR IN DRAGON BALL Z. IT WAS CREATED FOR DRAGON BALL GT. Therefore, discussion in Dragon Ball Z about the Legendary Super Saiyajin, who was a Super Saiyajin Oozaru, could not have been talking about Super Saiyajin 4, because it is never shown or discussed or even hinted at in any way in Dragon Ball Z'. That is ALL I said. I answered the question of the person who asked it, which was only vaguely related to the article to begin with. If you want to tell people not to use Wikipedia as a forum, tell the first person, because I am NOT the one who started this rant about rule breaking, original research, and similar bullshit.

If it is related to the discussion, has evidence to support it, and a discussion is not being had about it which has nothing to do with the article, you have no right to pick apart what someone says and go, "OH FUCK! IT'S AN OPINION! RULES POLICE! RULES POLICE!" Mind your own business, and start being helpful, please.

Daishokaioshin 01:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What in the heck is wrong with you people. SSD4 you should not accuse someone of rule breaking. You seem to have done it yourself. Dai, I know dogon well I can't lecture you on it because I done it in the past and you help me understand that it's wrong, but what do you think you are doing using PROFANITY!!!, turning it into a forum, and you are taking this WAY TOO PERSONAL!!! You need to stop that now. Both of you. So Dai before someone at Wikipedia see that statement you may need to erase it. The last one the starts "OH F___" and the BULLS___ one. Now the statement that SSD4 was talking about is that one that say Dai you imply that DBGT has nothing to do with DBZ? You maybe somewhat right in a way but that is an opinion. It is however not an original research SSD4. You should no better than to put that on here. I know I can't really lecture you like I said but its true. But SSD4 you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with this article on Super Saiyans. Yes it is something that can be talked about but on DBGT article or DBZ article. My God what are you two thinking putting personal attacks infront of everyone's eyes? I know I can't really talk as I said again but someone had to. Heat P 05:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh no. Profanity. It's the end of the world. Last time I checked there's no rule against the use of "profanity" if it is used sparingly, is not being used to attack anyone, and is not being used for the sake of using it. In this instance, I was using it to emphasize the ridiculousness of how this IP user that signs his posts with "SSD4" and doesn't log in (something you're not supposed to do, because it can be considered to be an attempt to falsely sign the name of someone else for one's own messages. GASP! A RULE BREAKAGE!) is freaking out over the fact that someone has an opinion he disagrees with. And that's what this is all really about. He, she, or it, is upset that someone would dare to imply anything negative about their precious Dragon Ball GT series, and thus has attempted to use the rules to attack me for a perceived slight when I said and did nothing wrong. It's not that I may have stated an opinion or not, it's that the anonymous user doesn't like my point of view and is thus acting poorly towards me. They need to grow up and learn that not everyone is going to agree with them on everything and being a spazz when someone disagrees does not help anything.

I propose that we terminate this conversation, as it has nothing to do with the article, was incredibly pointless, and doesn't contribute anything beneficial to anything in existence. Let's discuss the article, people. Not contributors. If you have any further comments or complaints, please take them to my talk page so I can ignore and delete them, because I don't care about comments and complaints, and am here to make Wikipedia a better place, not discuss pointless topics with people I don't know.

Daishokaioshin 05:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

1st off do not get on me ok. I feel you two are going way too far infront of eveyone that talks on this page. I do agree on termination of this talk but before that, go and look under Talk Page guildlines under Be polite (Wikipedia:Civility), Wikipedia:Assume good faith,Wikipedia:Profanity, and content page Should Wikipedia Use Profanity?. It is a violation of using profanity but I don't wanna argue over that. It's not the right thing to do. Remember good faith, no personal attacks and be polite. You do take things way too personal sometimes, but I agree on this "SSD4" person is using this as a way to attack you. Just be careful arguing with hardheaded fools. As for you "SSD4" Dai has all rights to put a opinion on here as long as Dai doesn't edit the article with opinion. Also its not a Original Reseach she said. Since you have no IP I have to tell you this here. If you have a issue with Dai, go to Dai's IP address and take it up with Dai there and not here. This article is about SSJ, not DBGT or DBZ or a depate or personal attack forum. So as of now this is the end of this edit summary discussion. Heat P 08:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I can live with that Heat but I didn't attack Daikaioshin or I did not think it at the time. I disagreed with her statement on DBGT having nothing to do with DBZ. Which I am allowed to do right? Then Daikaioshin put that negative comment on here and I felt that Daikaioshin should not have done that and felt Daikaioshin attack me 1st. The Fatty thing statement is what I mean. I did not go at Daikaioshin or "attack her" as you say until that comment was made. Thats when I retaliated. I should not have done that but that's the only reason I said what I said. Oh I got a IP address. However I will end it as you suggested.

I still feel that since no one knows what the true 1st Super Saiyan really looked like, that it can't be said what the Super Saiyan true form looks like. I say if we go by the manga then Goku and the other Saiyans first form is the true Super Saiyan look. As far as the anime goes, which includes Dragonball GT, then the true Super Saiyan form is totally unknown now. SSJ, SSJ3, Golden Oozaru, SSJ4, LSSJ. No one knows.

SSD4 06:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, just to give this discussion my whole knowledge, the legend was that one day a Legendary Super Saiyan would rise again and usher in a new age. The LSSJ was Broly and by his birth an age of Super Saiyans arrived.

I'd say that LSSJ was the true form of Super Saiyan.

User:TheMadness 22:28, 9 Dec 2006 (GMT)

You guys are intitled to you opinion I guess. So I wanna know where the manga and true story comes in? You guys seem to be using movie character that have no existence in the manga or true anime storyline. Sure it says Legendary Super Saiyan Broly but using a character from a storyline that goes out of the true storyline doesn't seem right to put under what a true SSJ looks like. The same about the legend can be the said about Goku as in the anime he was the first to become a SSJ and the only one to hit every SSJ level other than that LSSJ only given to Broly in a movie not the anime. SSD4 03:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Broly is the Legendary Super Saiyan so deal with it. Sure he doesn't appear in the magna or anime but that doesn't mean he is not canon. The reason there is Broly is to explain why there could be more than one super saiyan as seen in the Trunks Saga. Broly has indeed become a legendary Super Saiyan. If you don't like it too bad. Movies are canon even though they don't fit in the timeline expect for movie 9 and 13.

That there is something that does not have anything to do with this article or this summary on the True Form of a Super Saiyan. As SSD4 just point out, there is no real source on how the real or true Super Saiyan look is suppose to be since no one seen what the very first Super Saiyan look like. So using Broly is not right and not using Goku is not right since both are consider the legendry Super Saiyan but neither are the very first Super Saiyan. Also stop with this canon and non canon stuff. it is not the place for it. None of this is helping the article at all.

Heat P 15:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's just go what we know. Broly is considered a Legendary Super Saiyan. During the Frieza saga no one knows what a super saiyan looked like. Vegeta imaged a super saiyan as being a giant ape. At one point Vegeta thought he was a Super Saiyan since he got so much stronger during the Frieza saga. Does the True Super Saiyan form refer to Super Saiyan 1 or Legendary Super Saiyan as in Broly?

That's the problem, no one knows what the true super saiyan look is. Is it the image that Vegeta had, the Golden Oozaru? Is it the first SSJ form of the current SSJs or Is it Broly's LSSJ form? We don't know so we can't say.

Heat P 12:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"Latent Power Released" Gohan

I thought of something while reading the article. Would Gohan's "Latent Power Released" form -- the power form he used during the tail-end of the Majin Buu Saga where he was just as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 but showed little-to-no aura and lacked a change of hair and eye color -- be considered part of the "Super Saiyan" thing? I read the semi-article in Gohan's article and it said anyone can undergo the "Latent Power Released" ritual, but it also said that "Gohan would go Super Saiyan but there would only be a very slight difference in appearence."(Or something to that degree.) ~ Joseph Collins (U)(T)(C) 10:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Son Gohan's ultimate form is no where near the power of a SSj2. While in his "ultimate" state, he was able to easily deal with Shin Boo, showing no use of effort whatsoever. And all attacks used for physical, meaning he had extremely great power. No SSj2 in the Boo saga could do that. Not Goku's SSj3. - Tyro_Kith 9:50, 10 December 2006.

The powers that Gohan has when he is powered up by Rou Dai Kaioshin are not Super Saiyan powers. These powers are the hidden powers that Gohan has had that he periodical showed through out his growing up in Dragonball Z's earlier days. All RDK did was unleashed his hidden powers to there full potential and gave Gohan full control over them. These power have no physical characteristics that a Super Saiyan has. He has his normal base look. No Glowing Blond hair. No Green or Blueish Green Eyes, No Golden Aura. All it changed was Gohan's face to a more confident look as Piccolo said appone seeing Gohan arrive at the fight with Buu. The only real change was his eyes. Basicaly it gave Gohan his own look. As in Dragonball Z's end and movie 13 Gohan had no reason to go Super Saiyan since this power was stronger than any Super Saiyan power except SSJ3 which was more or less on a even level. This is info I am using based on Dragonball Z. I am not putting GT in this statement. So "Ultimate Gohan" is where he needs to be. On the Son Gohan article, not on the Super Saiyan article.SSD4 06:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty then. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this. And I think I meant to write "Super Saiyan 3" when I wrote the original question, but whatever. ~ Joseph Collins (U)(T)(C) 16:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's cool man. I understand where you are coming from but it's just as I said. Gohan's Latent Power Released is just his original hidden power unleashed to Gohan's full control. SSD4 07:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

ssj4.5-ssj5

i think gogetas final form should be some ware between ssj4 and ssj5. I dont belive he was ssj4 (shadowsok@aol.com)

That's like saying Vegetto wasn't a SSj because he's stronger than Goku's SSj3. Until he powers up to his SSj2 state, he's still a SSj, reguardless of power. SSj4 Gogeta would be the same. He is the fusion of two SSj4s. When Gotenks was made by Goten and Trunks fusing at SSj, he wasn't a SSj2. - Tyro_Kith 7:25, 11 December 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.31.6.135 (talk) 00:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Why do you want to put this so called SSJ5 in this? It has not been officially published or officially drawn into the Dragonball community by Mr. Toriyama or Toei Studios. That is a fan based transformation. Tyro_Kith is right. Just because someone's base power is so strong that when they transform they are well above the power levels of normal Saiayns's SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 or 4's power doesn't mean they are already at the next level. SSJ4 Gogeta, SSJ Vegetto as well as SSJ3 Gotenks are what they are despite the huge power they show compared to normal Saiyans's SSJ powers and levels.SSD4 07:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

i am not proposing he was ssj5 just more than ssj4. i am not basing this on power i am basing this on the change in fetures.

There's nothing official that states that Gogeta ever reached Super Saiyan 5 or even a mid point between that an 4, so don't change it. --Majinvegeta 18:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

~~The so-called "Super Saiyan 5" was a piece of fan-art released with a few other pictures indicating a new DragonBall series known as AF. This is a myth, perhaps a practical joke by someone who wanted to throw the DB/Z/GT fans into a tail-spin. If you google it you can find up to "Super Saiyan 16" with all SSJ 5-16 being recolored forms of 1-4.

~~IMO power levels are irrelevant, it is the method of using the power that determines state. The "Giji Super Saiyan" was used when Goku's rage exploded, temporarily drawing out his full power, however he was unused to this power and was unable to control it, thus the short lifespan of the form. The Super Saiyan form was an improved form that allowed Goku to draw out all of his latent power, and control it. Super saiyan 2nd and 3rd grades are when that latent power is drawn out and multiplied, similar to the Kaio-ken but without the corresponding upswing in speed. The golden hair and green eyes common to Super Saiyan forms are a side effect caused by imperfect control, thus the increased spikiness is SSJ2 and the long hair is SSJ3. Super Saiyan 2 form allows the user to multiply his latent power and speed. Super Saiyan 3 form is merely a continuation of this, multiplying the latent powers to the greatest extent. However this sudden increase in power is difficult to control. Super Saiyan 4 forms greatest achievment was the complete stability and control of the form allowing the person to use incredible power without the "leakage" of the first 3 forms. The idling power level of the SSJ4 is close to 0, while still allowing instantaneous increase to full power. The only exception being Gogeta, who purposely unleashed an aura, since his power was so great that he could afford to waste it. --SoloStryker 10:35 March 10, 2007 (EST)

Huh?

What's this "Dragon Ball/Z/GT Transformation Guide"? Is it an official published book, by Akira Toriyama? If there are names given in such a publication that are considered to be valid and reliable, then including them should be no problem. But as is? I don't think there's any reason to make the titles any longer than they already are, and it messes with links on a number of articles to change them. If you absolutely must include these alternate names, perhaps mentioning them as alternate names in the text UNDER the title might be a better choice.

Daishokaioshin 23:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey I went and look in online stores and online book markets and there is only one thing book wise that keeps coming up and thats the booklet guide to the Dragonball GT Transformations's game For Gameboy so unless it's in Japan there seems to be no such book or Guide in online stores. Only internet sites. SSD4 03:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Fix Names

Hey guys and gals I was looking over the article and nothice something I feel needs to be fixed. The names of Goku and the other Son's names. In some of the Super Saiyan level subjects it says Son Goku or Son Gohan and in others is just says Goku or Gohan. To fix this I wanted to see what you folks think and feel about it. If you agree we need to fix it, do we go with the Son family name or just keep it the given name. For those that don't understand what I mean. Should we use Son Goku and Son Gohan or just Goku and Gohan? Heat P 20:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be Goku and Gohan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.221.217 (talk • contribs)

To whoever keeps changing Goku and Gohan in the Super Saiyan 2 section to Son Goku and Son Gohan needs to stop. Unless you going to change all the Son character names to the Son family name in every section of this article leave it as such. One section does not need there names different then the others. So again unless you intend to change every Goku, Gohan and Goten in the article to Son Goku etc.... leave it be. Heat P 12:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistancy with SSJ4

In the article, it says "In this form, the Saiyan's hair does not become golden, but instead retains its original color". Yet Vegeta's ahir is brown as seen in the series and noted below the above mentioned paragraph. This needs to be fixed but i don't know how to re-word the article + it's 1am in the morning where I am. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mjr4077au (talk • contribs) 14:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Remember one thing but i can't understand why it Toei changes it. Vegeta before he arrived on Earth his hair was a Brownish color as seen in the episode when Vegeta destroyed that planet and in the Bardock TV Special as a kid Vegeta's hair was Brown and concider that the special aired during the Frieza saga where it showed his hair was black. but when he got to Earth during the Sayian saga, Toei or Toriyama changed it to black. Now throughout the series Vegeta's hair remained black but often had a brown highlight to it from coloring or lighting done to itas shown in the series but is mostly in advertising pictures and poster. So Toei may have just wanted to use Vegeta's true originial color for the SJ4. Who knows.

Heat P 07:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

That's strictly an anime thing. His hair was always black in the manga. It's just random dumb that was thrown in for no reason.

Daishokaioshin 09:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

True Heat P 07:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

But remmber guys, GT was never manga, therefore Toei could do whatever they wanted with Vegeta's hair color, because they had nothing original to go by. --Majinvegeta 18:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Full Power

Dai, I got a question that you, who have more knowlegde on Japanese language than anyone editing these DB articles can most likely answer. Like the other Super Saiyan sections other that SSJ2,3, and 4, they have the original Japanese names in the description paragraph. Would it be possible to put the Japanese word for the FPSSJ on it? I looked it up and Full Powered Super Saiyan came at as Sūpā Saiyajin Furu Pawā but I looked it up on the inertnet on the website www.Daizex.com. That site has alot of info on it collected from the Daizenshuus, Dragon Ball offical books like GT perfect guide and mangas. I don't want to add it without consulting someone with more knowledge than I do in the Japanese language or put something on here that actually may not be in the offical books. What you think? These also goes for anyone that can answer this but only to those who REAL know and not a comment you feel should be put.

Heat P 13:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey been a while Heat. I know I am not Daikaishin but I looked it up for you as well as some other things I like to share with you. Sûpâ Saiyajin Furu Pawâ was coined in the second Daizenshuu but I found some other things that my interset you and help fix the article.

FULL-POWER SUPER SAIYAN (Sûpâ Saiyajin Furu Pawâ) The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu

SUPER SAIYAN 2 (SSJ2) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Tsû) Originally called a Super Saiyan that surpasses that of a, or beyond that of a Super Saiyan

SUPER SAIYAN 3 (SSJ3) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Surî)

SUPER SAIYAN 4 (SSJ4) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Fô)

LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN (LSSJ) (Densetsu no Sûpâ Saiyajin) sixth daizenshuu ("MOVIES & TV SPECIALS").

"ASCENDED" and "ULTRA" SUPER SAIYAN (ASSJ,USSJ) ("ichi-dankai no henshin;" transformations of the first stage)

• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ichi-dankai (the normal Super Saiyan, or SSJ1)

• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai (ASSJ; the second stage of SSJ1)

• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai (USSJ; the third stage of SSJ1)

The ASSJ AND USSJ stages would each be considered, as Goku puts it in the original Japanese dialogue, "ichi-dankai no henshin" ("transformations of the first stage"). However, ASSJ and USSJ are thought of by Vegeta and Trunks as "Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai" and "Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai" ("stage 2 / stage 3 of Super Saiyan," with "ni" and "san" meaning "two" and "three," respectively) I know this part is somewhat fixed but I put it here to just let you guys look over it.

Know I am not saying to change the section titles or something of that nature because we dont need the same thing to happen like when you guys disagreed about Giji or rather False SSJ but do with these as you did with that section and the others like Ascended and Ultra SSJ. You have the original japanese saying for it. just a suggestion. I am not trying to start a debate but I wanted to share with you guys what I too found myself. SSD4 12:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Giji again

Ok I going to fix it back to False Super Saiyan. It been agreed on so leave it been. Do not start this up again.

Heat P 08:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I also went in and fix several thing that some unknown IP user decided to add on that really did't make sense of shouldn't have been put into this article.

Heat P 08:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Again so unknown IP address keeps on changing the False SSJ to Giji. Again it has been agreed on to have it as False. So I went and changed it back AGAIN and I will as long as whoever is doning keeps changing it.among some other things. if someone has a problem with it needs to speak up.

Heat P 06:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Editing issues

Ok I come to this article everyday for the past week and I come and see something is always missing, or changed. Today I came on and seen three things that got to me. One, under ASSJ some one puts supposely next to Goku and under USSJ Goku's name is completely taken off. Now if memory serves me correctly in the anime and manga Goku is shown powering up to both of this SSJ power up in the Room of Spirit and Time infront of his first born son Gohan. He may not have used them in a fight but he clearly was seen in these two powered up forms of the normal SSJ. why edit it to that crap earlier? Just to let you know I edited the corrections in. Two, everyday I come on this article, the picture of the SSJ4 is one day just Goku SSJ4 then the next Vegeta amd Goku SSJ4. Pick a picture and stick with it. PLEASE.

Heat P 20:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

3bulletproof16 question? As I was writing the paragraph above you came on and changed EVERYTHING to the way it was when I seen it yesterday. Do you have this whole atricle copied on you hard drive or something? Because you changed all the editing done to this article in the last few hours in a flash. Just wondering.

Heat P 20:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Jesus...It has been changed and rearranged again. Guess it will never end. The whole article and some one keeps editing the FPSSJ and SSJ2 sections by keep putting Super Saiyan 1? Question is it called Super Saiyan 1 or just Super Saiyan? I believe it is called a Super Saiyan and not a SSJ1, no such official number for the normal and original SSJ form. So please stop adding the number behind it. If you feel the need to try a give us a different feel the say normal or original Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 1 is not right at all.

Heat P 01:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok someone is went through the article and added some real non sense but added some good points. So myself and SUIT are going through the article now and fixing up the problems. If anyone see something we don't please feel free to fix it.

Heat P 19:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

ascended/ultimate super saiyan

i would like to know where the information about Son Goku was ever what is listed as an ascended and ultra super saiyan

--Ditre 21:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you blind, do you read the manga, do you watch the anime. Goku is show powering up to show Gohan that he has found the way to ascended past his normal Super Saiyan powers and even notices the fault in the use of USSJ just as Trunks is fighting Cell in his USSJ form. If that does not help you how about his Daizehshuu has him listed as one of the users of this power up.

i watched the anime, never read the manga because theres no place near where i live that sells them... the only time i ever saw goku say he ascended to a level beyond a super saiyan is where he was referring to becoming a Super Sayain 2, because he didn't get bulgy like the others did
--Ditre 03:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok I got you. If you got the Perfect Cell Saga I cant truly remember at this time what episode number but it's one of the episodes when Trunks beings his fight with the newly Perfected Cell. The scene goes to where we see the Room of Spirit and Time or to Funimation dub the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Gohan is off in a distants training by himself as Goku is sitting down and seems to be meditating, then suddenly Goku stands up to Gohan's curiousity and transforms to a Super Saiyan then beings to power up more and he goes into his ASSJ power up. Gohan surprised at this runs over to his dad and is amazed but Goku lets Gohan know he can power up more and then he powers up to the USSJ power up. That is when Goku notices the flaws in the more power but less speed as seen when the episode goes back and forth to the battle with Trunks and Cell. Trunks can't hit Cell for anything, no matter how hard he trys. That is also when Goku informs Gohan that they need a way to stay in Super Saiyan form without the emotional side effect or the quick draining of their SSJ powers, hint the FPSSJ.

Heat P 19:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Dragonball Z manga volume 17, Anime episode one hundred and fifty ("The Cell Games"). You can go to myfavoritegames.com and get screens from the episode, they have one of Goku transformed (Don't worry, I don't memorize the episode numbers, I looked it up). --Majinvegeta 18:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey thanks for the info and don't worry about anyone talking about if you remember episode numbers, all that means is you are a still a DB fan nothing more nothing less.

Heat P 06:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In episode 244 of Dragonball Z when Goku said he was an ascended super saiyan he meant he was a super saiyan 2. So the super saiyan 2nd grade in this article should be changed to Ultra Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3rd grade should be changed to Ultra Super Saiyan 2. Just Tell me why you agree or disagree.

Child to Adult

Saying that "a child's body cannot contain the power of a Super Saiyajin 4" or whatever is speculation. It isn't "common sense". It isn't stated anywhere in GT or any other source that this is the case. You know what would make more sense? Goku turns into an adult because as a Super Saiyajin 4 his power exceeds that of the dragon who forced him into a child's body, temporarily breaking the spell. THAT would makesense. However, GT doesn't NEED to "make sense" to us, and even that explanation I gave is speculation. Okay. So. Let's say that what you claim is true, and a child's body can't contain the power of a Super Saiyajin 4, and thus Goku turns into an adult when he transforms. Let's just pretend this makes sense for now. Where does Goku's shirt go when he transforms? Why do his pants and other clothes change size to accomodate his adult body? Where did the pants come from the first time when he transformed from an Ougan Oozaru with NO clothes, to a much smaller humanoid? How does any of that make sense? The answer? It doesn't. The writers of GT put so many inconsistencies and senseless things in that series, it's not even funny. Do NOT go making up explanations for things when they aren't needed, and aren't supported by any sources. That's all.

Daishokaioshin 09:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4 is a different transformation than super saiyan, super saiyan 2, and super saiyan 3. When goku goes super saiyan 4 he becomes an adult. If another saiyan child becomes super saiyan 4 they too will be adults as a super saiyan 4. I agree lets not put any speculation in there. I doubt goku broke the spell of the dragon when he becomes super saiyan 4 since he is still a child as a super saiyan and super saiyan 3. Goku would still be a child if he were to go super saiyan 2 in Dragonball GT. It makes sense that if a nonadult saiyan goes super saiyan 4 he too will become an adult but that is just speculation of mine.

i think the only reason he stayed an adult is the same reason akira didn't make female super saiyans --Ditre 01:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

this whole discussion could end with saying "thats how the SSJ4 transformation works". if the size of a saiyan in ozaro form is similar weather the saiyan is an adult or a child, then this transformation could work under the same "rules". and as for the clothing generation we see clothing being created through the fusion dance, does that come from anywhere? -Evirus 69.14.33.214 07:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"this whole discussion could end with saying "thats how the SSJ4 transformation works"." This is very true. The OP has an extremely valid point by pointing out that Dragonball Z and GT have shown children attain SSJ1-3. The one time we see a child go SSJ4, he immediatly becomes an adult. There's no argument against it. Saying thats just speculation is a sign of pure ignorance. As for the random clothes? Piccolo creates clothes out of thin air. We're never told how he does it, he just does. Different clothing is randomly generated from the fusion dance. How? We don't know, but it's there. Goku's clothes changed to fit his adult SSJ4 appearance. How? We don't know, but stating that the OP's claim is speculation is the same as speculating whether or not Goku's clothes did in fact changes to fit his adult self. Sure you see it clear as day, but you also see a child transform into SSJ4 and become an adult as a result, but you ignore that fact, so why not ignore other obvious facts?

• Soooo... if it's pretty much been decided that Daishokaioshin was in the wrong and that OP who put that only adults can hold the SSJ4 transformation meaning kids become adults as a result is basically correct, why hasn't it been readded into the article. I know Daishokaioshin is stubborn and would continue to take it out, despite being proven wrong, but the majority seems to have spoken here. I remember this minor edit war from a few months back, which seems to have been forgotten. I vote to re-add the information to the article.4.254.64.67 19:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I see that before the page FINALLY has been protected that their is a depate over child to adult. First off there really is no proof that Oozarus are the same size. FACT, As see many times through out the series the Oozaru sizes have varied many time. Sometimes they are show no bigger than a two to three story house then sometimes they are show to tower even a skyscraper. For instants in Dragon Ball when go transformed the first time he was almost as tall as the tallest tower in Pilaf's castle but in that same series when he transformed facing Jackie Chun in the tournament he was much small. Another is in GT. When Goku transformed into the G. Oozaru he was seen in various gigantic sizes but when face to face with Pan he was seen much small as how big his head was when she was next to him however when Baby-Vegeta transformer his size varied a lot and I mean a lot.

Next is the issue with Goku. FACT; The only child that transformed into a Super Saiyan 4 who was originally an adult. Daikaioshin has a better point on that the Super Saiyan 4 powers are so massive that is broke the wishes properties to where Goku was of adult size again as SSJ-SSJ3 does not affect the wishes properties but like someone said that is spectulation. No other kids in Dragon Ball transformed into a SSJ4. Comparing it to how Gotenks was able to go SSJ3 has no affect on SSJ4, saying the same of Gohan when he became the first SSJ2. It has no meaning of affect on SSJ4. See since Goku was already an adult before meaning he had already grown up would make sense that it is possible for him to grow back to adult size. If Gohan, Gotenks, Goten, Trunks(During DBZ if 4 was created then), or Pan had transformed do you really think that Toei or Mr. Toriyama would have made them into adult size? Most likely no since they had not grown up doing those time if they had transformed, but just like you guy's statements that is a opinion and speculation.

Do not say someone is ingnorant when most of you are ingnoring facts too. So yes saying that all children saiyans, if they transformed into SSJ4, would become of adults adult size is a big opinion and pure spectulation. An ok theroy but not good enough to put into the article. Goku was an adult basically trapped in a child's body and he was the only one to transform form a child. Also you ingnore the fact that Oozarus sizes have varied a lot in Dragon Ball so those theroies can not be such that they can be put into this article. Sorry unless a pure and official fact comes out that any saiyan kid that reaches Super Saiyan 4 comes out it is all, opinion, speculation and a ok theory do not count, a solid theory like Super Saiyan child concived by a already Super Saiyan father is ok but, something a lot more solid then Goku was a child at the time could mean all Saiyan kids can. Heat P 12:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

We can boil this down to a much simpler answer. Are we told why Goku becomes an adult? NO. Therefore, ANY theory about why he is an adult, no matter how logical, is original research. The end. Onikage725 03:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Gohan Super Saiyan Grade 2

Lately there's been a lot of back and forth editing because there are few recordings of Gohan achieving the first USSJ form. I've watched the entire Cell Saga to make certain I was right, Gohan appears to turn USSJ inside of the Room of Spirit and time during Episode 150 "The Cell Games" (in the US espisodes).

If you follow this link, you can look at the episode and see for yourself: http://www.dailymotion.com/kobe3/video/xq7io_dbz-150-the-cell-games

In this episode, Gohan turns Super Saiyan at 3:21. He says a few words then at 3:28 his Super Saiyan aura becomes darker and thicker (like USSJ Vegeta when he fought Cell in his second form; you can really see how his aura has changed when the view shows his whole body) and his hair changes shape. His hair sticks up more rigidly and becomes a bit longer (which becomes apparent when you see him start executing fighting moves) and he pauses a few seconds as he strains under the extra power (just as Vegeta did when he powered into USSJ). Goku watches Gohan in this form and that's when he realizes the flaws of the Ultra Super Saiyan form as he demonstrates to Gohan. Watching Gohan train as an USSJ lets Goku see the form from an outside perspective and recognize its weaknesses. Full Shunyata 18:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... only saiyans to reach SSJ 2nd/3rd Grade.... again same stuff here... none of these sources say Gohan reached SSJ 2nd/3rd Grade.-- bulletproof ^3:16 20:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the sources say, you can see it for yourself in the episode. Full Shunyata 23:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong Full Shunyata, Gohan was a super saiyan 1st grade or in other words a super saiyan 1. The reason his hair sticks up more is because he is powering up and that is how his super saiyan form looked like. Why do you think Gohan was surpised when he saw Goku become an Ultra Super Saiyan? Gohan was trying to learn how to stay as a super saiyan without losing too much energy. Gohan's muscles did not bulk up like Vegeta, Goku, and Future Trunks did. You should see that when Gohan is reverting to his normal state.

Yes, he was indeed powered up, he was powered up into the second form which is why his hair sticks up more and why it changes shape. At no other point in the series does a character power up as a Super Saiyan and have their hair shape and aura change WHILE still being at the same level. I'm sorry but your comment makes no sense, a simple power up within the same level does not cause such a noticeable change in physical appearance (even his muscle size increased). Also, Gohan could have been surprised at Goku's power (which surpassed his own), not his state. You said he simply powered up, but with the apparent change in Gohan's physical appearnnce, one could just as easily say that Goku and Vegeta simpy "powered up" since they changed in the same manner that Gohan did in that scene. Full Shunyata 23:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I said before he is only powering up. If you look closely you noticein 4:35 while he is a super saiyan and 4:37 when he is in his normal state that the muscle mass is the same. In episode 146 Vegeta Must Pay Gohan still has a dark aura. Gohan never reached super saiyan 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Gohan did become a super saiyan 2. The reason his hair sticks up is because that is what he looks like as a super saiyan. Gohan is just a super saiyan in episode 150 The Cell Games not a super saiyan 2nd grade. Gohan is only trying to stay as a super saiyan without draining too much energy.

Alright, I'll address the important points because you keep repeating you opinion over and over as if it is fact. "Like I said before he is only powering up" How do you figure that? What is the difference between Gohan's power up and Vegeta's power up when he fights Cell? You have to give me some kind of intelligent reasoning here, you just keep repeating your disagreement but not backing it up. "If you look closely you noticein 4:35 while he is a super saiyan and 4:37 when he is in his normal state that the muscle mass is the same." I watched it again. Actually, at both 4:35 and 4:37 Gohan has already gone back to his normal form. If you look at Gohan at 5:03, you notice that he seems noticeably smaller than he did at 4:27. Also, when you watch Goku go from being a SSJ to an USSJ at 4:56, you'll notice that the increase in his muscle mass is not too drastic from that of a normal SSJ. It isn't until he demonstrates USSJ2 (Trunk's form) that he gets really bulky. When Goku goes from SSJ to USSJ1, he shows the exact same traits that Gohan did when he "powered up". He experiences a slight muscle increase, his hair becomes slightly taller and more upright, and his aura becomes darker. If Gohan simply "powered up" one could reason that Goku simply "powered up" as well as his first change is almost identical to Gohan's change between 3:21 and 3:28. Also, notice that it wasn't until Goku watched Gohan that he decided to demonstrate the weaknesses of the USSJ form. If Gohan did not reach USSJ1, why bother to even demonstrate it to him? That would make no sense. It would be like telling someone not to jump off a cliff when the person is not even a near a cliff. "In episode 146 Vegeta Must Pay Gohan still has a dark aura." Yes, that is because Vegeta is still an USSJ1 in that episode. You actually just helped to prove my point whether you realize it or not. "The reason his hair sticks up is because that is what he looks like as a super saiyan." There is a noticeable differnce in his hair between 3:21 and 3:28. At every other point inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Gohan's hair as a Super Saiyan looks exactly like it did at 3:21. At no other point inside the Room did it look like it did between 3:28 and 4:27, nor at any other point is his Super Saiyan aura so dark. If he simply "powered up", there is no other character in the entire DragonBall series who powers up and has a change in Super Saiyan hair shape and aura color while not changing grade. Heck, when Gohan powers up, his aura color is the same color as Trunks' while he is fighting Cell. There is a very noticeable difference between the color of Super Saiyan Grade 1 aura and Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 aura. Gohan has the dark gold color of a SSJ Grade 2. Why would Gohan's power up as a Super Saiyan look so differnet from everyone one else? When other characters power up as Super Saiyans (without changing grade) in the series, their aura simply becomes larger, while not changing color, and the whoosing noise becomes louder. Their hair does not stick up a few more inches like it did with Gohan between 3:21 and 3:28. "Gohan is only trying to stay as a super saiyan without draining too much energy." Based on Gohan's movements (and his words, he talks about trying to become stronger), he was trying to increase his power level (which is what causes Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3). Goku notices and increases his power level as well to show the downsides of Grade 2 and 3. In fact, your last statement contradicts what you originally said. You origianlly said that Gohan was trying to "power up". Now you're saying that he was trying to conserve energy. Which is it? (Who are you BTW? Your user name isn't showing up) Full Shunyata 07:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Also while the source Bulletproof posted is generally a very reliable source (more so than almost all other Dragonball sources), even 'official' sources can still make mistakes. The source, while authoritative, can still be falliable. They creators are human beings. I'm sure there are things in the series that they did not catch. This could be one of them. Full Shunyata 07:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

You want a offical source to show you Gohan never aquired the two other grades of super saiyan. Pick up volume 33, chapter 387 (japanese) or volume 17, chapter 193 Dragon Ball Z (US) and read them as well as the official guides to Dragon Ball, the Daizenshuu books and in them it only states that Vegeta, M-Trunks and Goku in that order were the only ones to ascended to ASSJ and M-Trunks and Goku in that order to ascend to USSJ. Also go and hit the search site like Google, Ask and Yahoo search and see if anything comes up on Gohan ascending other than him becoming a SSJ2. I just did that and nothing came up on him powering up to those forms. In the manga it is shown that Gohan is only a normal super saiyan training to maintain his powers, strenghten himself and to see how long he can stay in his super saiayn form as Gohan was not a super saiyan in the ROSAT for too long despite the time difference( at best he was only in the ROSAT a FEW months the rooms time and only resently in the room became a super saiyan). It was only Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time at that time to become a ASSJ and USSJ because he already was accustom to his SSJ powers and had to find away to ascend. That is way Gohan was so surprised at what Goku was doing. You can not go off the anime to tell if he was at another level as many of the artist how draw for the anime had different drawing styles despite most still looked the same and mess up on some things. Every 4 or 5 episodes are drawn by a different artist. When those episodes end the cycle begins with the first artist in the group. Also alot of stuff in the anime is draw a little different then it is in the manga. For example there is an issue with Gohan and him in his SSJ form that looks like his SSJ2 without the electric aura in anime when he is just a SSJ in the manga. Another example is during Goku and Majin Vegeta's fight they are SSJ2s but the first episode of that fight,230. The Long Awaited Fight (Second episode after they become SSJ2s)is drawn with them in there normal SSJ forms while the other episodes229. Vegeta’s Pride ,231. Magical Ball of Buu, 232. Buu is Hatched (drawn by different artist) after that one and the first episode, 228. The Dark Prince Returns when they transformed before the fight begins has them as SSJ2s. Many things can be drawn by the artist of the anime that will confuse you but is you must go by the manga to get the right info on transformations. So far there is no offical source not even from Japan to give us a reason to put Gohan on the ASSJ and/or USSJ list of users.

Heat P 14:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks User Heat P. I'm glad someone posted official statings that only certain characters achieved USSJ. However, that scene still leaves me confused because it looks so ambiguous. Gohan is the only character I've ever seen power up within the same grade but experience a slight change in hair shape and aura color and a slightly further muscle mass increase. But it could have just been the artists, as you said. Still, do you think the scene might have possibly been an anime deviation from the manga? Full Shunyata 19:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It is quite possible but again many of the artist for some odd reason likes to put their own style sometimes into their work that sometimes is different then the manga. For example again. The fight between Gohan and Dabura in the Babidi saga (US saga) and when Gohan turned into a Super Saiyan right before Buu is released. In the manga Gohan is drawn as a completely normal Super Saiyan but in the anime he is drawn many times to look like his Super Saiyan 2 form with iut the electric aura, the same way that we all saw in the World tournament when ask by Kibito to transform. See at the World tournament and when Gohan fought Cell is the only time Gohan became a Super Saiyan 2 officially but the artist seem to like the Super Saiyan 2 look for both of Gohan's Super Saiyan forms. I also went back today and watch the episode with the ROSAT. I see where the confusion really came from. From the very start of Gohan transforming is confusing even to me, a person that has been watch Dragon Ball for more than 13 years now. But I assure you Full Shunyata Gohan was only a Super Saiyan.

Heat P 11:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Heat. I appreciate how you broke it down like that. You taught me more about the series as well with this information. If Gohan turned Super Saiyan 2 at the World Tournament, why didn't he turn Super Saiyan 2 while fighting against Dabura or while fighting Majin Buu (before traveling to heaven and receiving Rou Dai Kaioshin's training)? Super Saiyan 2 would have come in handy at both of those times. Especially seeing that in his regular Super Saiyan 1, he was already able to fight equally with Dabura. Full Shunyata 07:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Go to your User page and I leave you a message on you question about Gohan and Dabura. Don't want to turn this talk page into a forum. Cool? Heat P 11:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 in the Anime against Dabura, but not the Manga. we try to keep these articles as manga info oriented as possible, Toei likes to create inconsistencies which leads to debates just like this one... :) --Majinvegeta 03:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

That is not a proven fact MJ. A proven fact is that after Gohan transfromed in the World Tournament he was always draw with is SSJ2 hair (the one bang hanging over his forehead) while in his normal SSJ form (which orignally had 2 bangs hanging a big one and a smaller one during his training with Goten). That is both the anime and manga. So yes inconsistencies are made in the translation to anime but not on a level that completely goes way form the manga other than fillers and that fight was not a filler. So even if it looks like it. Gohan did not become a SSJ2 during that fight. If you do not believe me about that hair and bangs go back through the Buu saga in the mangas you have and you see even before Gohan transformed in front of Kibito he transformed into a SSJ with the SSJ2 hanging bang when he was about to save Videl in her match. Sorry but I have to disagree on that on. Heat P 14:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible error

In the description, it states: A Super Saiyan (超サイヤ人 sūpā saiyajin)

I'd just like to point out that the kanji listed there, 超, has the sound "chō", or ちょう, if you're familiar with hiragana at all.

I poked around a little bit, and after some googling, I found that in japanese, SSJ is referred to in one of two ways, 超サイヤ人(chō saiyajin), as well as スーパーサイヤ人(sūpā saiyajin).

From what I've found, no combination of the kanji 超 with any other sounds is pronounced sūpā. I suppose I could be wrong, and I wouldn't know how it's written in the original manga(perhaps they were "creative"). I figured I'd post here before editing anything.69.148.172.216 08:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Thing is you are absolutly correct but and I have a few japanese DB mangas and in them both of the kanjis are used to state Super Saiyans. The thing is 超 (Chō) is another word in japanese for super. Plus using 超サイヤ人(chō saiyajin) in the manga is much short and easier to use then the longer スーパーサイヤ人(sūpā saiyajin) despite it being prenounced in the anime as such. So that is why chō saiyajin kanji is used much more in the manga then sūpā saiyajin with sūpā saiyajin is used in the anime. It is not an error as you think. Remember Cho is also used to describe Goku's invented Super Kamehameha with as we all know in japan is call Chō or Chou Kamehameha (ō in japanese is prenounced with a ou) So Chō and Sūpā are the same meaning for Super.

Heat P 11:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ascended form

Goku references Super Saiyan 2 as Ascended at one point in the anime, as does Gohan I believe. If someone could look up the ep and get a quote, that would be fantastic =P

Creation Destruction 19:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Goku said that in episode 245 Super Saiyan 3?! He said mentions that super saiyan 2 is an ascended super saiyan. He also says that in episode 248 Goku's time is up when he showed goten and Trunks super saiyan 3 but he showed them super saiyan and super saiyan 2 before super saiyan 3.

We should get Manga quotes, those are more accurate then Anime ones, not to mention WAY more accurate then Dubbed anime ones. Does anyone agree? --Majinvegeta 04:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree with you. Use manga quotes unless it is said in a filler episode. Heat P 14:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a beef. I don't think Super Saiyan 2nd and 3rd grades are actually SSJ forms. Trunks and Vegeta thought so, but SSJ 2 is the next level up from a Super Saiyan. Cell demonstrated that he could assume this so-called "form," and didn't Freeza do it as well, when he went to full power? Which makes me think anyone can do it, which would mean that it is not a unique transformation of the Saiyan race. If it's not their own transformation, it shouldn't bear their name.

I agree with the above poster. USSJ and USSJ2 aren't really SSJ forms, just beefed up versions of Super Saiyan. Master Roshi does a similar thing when he powers up to his maximum strength. 4.252.209.120 16:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If you notice under the contents of the page it saids.

   * 4.1 False Super Saiyan
   * 4.2 Super Saiyan
         o 4.2.1  Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan
         o 4.2.2  Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan
         o 4.2.3  Full-Power Super Saiyan
   * 4.3 Legendary Super Saiyan
   * 4.4 Super Saiyan 2
   * 4.5 Super Saiyan 3
   * 4.6 Super Saiyan 4

This shows you that ASSJ, USSJ, and FPSSJ are under the Super Saiyan catagory. Telling you that these three power ups are just a sort of sub form of a SSJ form. It does not actually mean they are true SSJ forms only another form of the original SSJ. They are on this page because they are part of the original Super Saiyan powers. Heat P 19:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan - entry missing

Um, since we have Future Trunks, what about Future Gohan? SUIT, give an insight on this baby. ( Seong0980 11:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC) )

Good point. If Onio is on the list why not Future Gohan?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.202.139 (talk • contribs)

I guess no one really thinks of Gohan and Future Gohan as separate people, but yes, they (when speaking about super Saiyans) are separate people. Also the reason could be that no one really considers him "future Gohan" because to most people, he's just "Gohan". --Majinvegeta 04:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Cell a Super Saiyan?

Cell IS technically a Super Saiyan, is he not? Granted he doesn't have hair and his eyes don't change, but he has Saiyan blood (more then Goku Jr even, believe it or not) and his aura is a Super Saiyan aura. Should he be put on the list? --Majinvegeta 00:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a crazy thing. As according to the Jap Wikipedia site (with someone told me we really can't use as a reference) they consider Cell an artifical Saiyan and is shown to be in many of the list of Super Saiyans. But that is something that should be put on the WP:DBZ MJ. Heat P 18:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Just because he has Saiyan cells doesn't make him a Super Saiyan, or even a saiyan at all. He's an android. All the Saiyan cells do is give him more power after a battle. And besides, the aura's in the anime aren't even a reliable source considering that characters aura's change colors over time. Like for instance how Vegeta's aura was purple during the Cell saga, but during the Buu saga, his aura is white. Or how the animators game Super Saiyan's lightning around their bodies, even though the Tenkaichi game and the manga has only certain stages have those. And just because he has a yellow aura doesn't make him a Super Saiyan. So thus, false information shouldn't be added. Ryu Ematsu 18:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

In actuality it is not false information. But it is more of an Original Research statement. He is not an android. He is an organic cybernetic being. He is call an android because of how the US dubbed him. In Japan it is translated they are artifical humans. He is a clone of Saiyan, Namek, Iceian (a word I use of the Cold family) and Human dna. So yes he can be called a Saiyan as well as the other races. He uses mostly his Saiyan parts of his powers to fight as seen. But I do agree myself that we can't put this into the article without a real referance. Sorry MJ but like I said if others feel like he should then we need to address it at WP:DBZ. Heat P 22:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Cell is not a super saiyan but he does have the powers of a super saiyan.

~~Aura's are rather unreliable for judging this usually, but, in the manga (chapter:219 Gohan's Pain) when Cell comes back after self-destructing he states

"...Now I'm complete without #18. And I've powered up-like son Gohan. It must have been my saiyan cells-a boost in power after a brush with death."

and his aura is identical to gohan's SSJ2 aura, not just similar, but identical. --Solostryker 11:07 March 10, 2007 (est)

Every 3000 years

In the article it says: "The legend states that every one thousand years in the Dragon Ball universe (three thousand years in the English dubbed version) a Super Saiyan is born, his true power awakened through rage. This Saiyan, called a Super Saiyan, would be recognized as the strongest being in the Universe, wielding what was considered limitless power.". In the English dub episode 53 Vegeta talks about the legend of the Super Saiyan saying: "After 3 millenniums its finally happened, a new super saiyan has emerged.". He says nothing about every 3000 years this happens, only that it finally has happened again, in another part he says: After 3000 years another super saiyan has emerged. But the last super saiyan could only maintain his status in the tranformed state."(transformed state meaning Ozaru). The last Super Saiyan's power was not the result of rage, rather the result of transformation which multiplies the Saiyans power level 10 fold. He did say however: "One day his rage erupted and he was destroyed by his own power." but not that he obtained his Super Saiyan status through rage. This description of a Super Saiyan only fits Broly as having unlimited power and all the other descriptions of the legendary Super Saiyan. Lucasthalefty 17:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

oh an a quick on the side irrelevant question, do video games count as Cannon? Maybe only certain ones? Get back to me on that because it could be a whole new field to base some facts on. Lucasthalefty 17:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the info you are providing is that of when Funimation and Pioneer combined dubbed DBZ episodes. We on the project page WP:DBZ are not trying to use the dubbed version of DBZ since it has a lot of faults in the dubbing. Especially the combined efforts of Funimation and Pioneer. Most of the info on the page is from the manga version of DB, thats why it says three thousand years in the English dubbed version after the original legend statement begins. The actual legend is from the manga version of DBZ. As for the video games we really can't use them for facts as they have some faults in them too. Heat P 18:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Plus Vegeta heard about the legendary super saiyan but didn't know what it looked like before goku went super saiyan.

Golden Oozaru

Give me some good points here and don't start any useless personal attack battles, shouldn't Golden Oozarus be part of this article? To keep it brief I'm pretty sure that a Golden Oozaru is the same thing as a Super Saiyan Oozaru, a Super Saiyan Oozaru was mentioned in episode 53 talking about the last Super Saiyan who arose 3000 years ago. Even if the idea was taken farther in GT, the Golden Oozaru was originally mentioned in DBZ and should be listed as having existed. Also there's always a lot of debate about cannon and GT but I see that Super Saiyan 4 is in the article so why not have the Golden Oozaru too, especially since it was talked about in DBZ. Lucasthalefty 17:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually you are right that the Golden Oozaru is the Super Saiyan version of the Oozaru form but since it is an Oozaru their really is no need to add it to the Super Saiyan page since it is on the Oozaru page. Having it on two pages explaining the same is really irrelevant. As so you have to read the manga version of that or at less see the japanese version of that episode to get the real explanation. Also the Golden Oozaru is really exclusive to the anime as in the manga it never shows the Golden Oozaru in Vegeta's explanation. Heat P 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a link to the Golden Oozaru section of the Oozaru page should be added in with the others being that it dose fall under the category of Super Saiyan and this would also keep the information from being on 2 pages, what are your thoughts. Lucasthalefty 03:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

A do agree with Heat, there's the fact that Golden Oozaru is on the Oozaru article, there's not point in having it here as well. And I also agree that in the manga, there was no "golden Oozaru" as a visual aid for Vegeta's explanation. The Golden Oozaru exists solely in the Anime, but then again, so does Super Saiyan 4. And the difference is that Golden Oozaru is not considered a Super Saiyan level because the major requirement for transformation is in the environment, it doesn't come from conscious participation from the Saiyan itself --Majinvegeta 04:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Gogeta-SSJ/SSJ2

Do you think Gogeta is SSJ or SSJ2? I believe he's a SSJ2 because he has lightning surrounding him, which is present only in forms above SSJ. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 23:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)71.183.44.106 (talk) 23:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

What you think doesn't matter. Only facts are to be presented. Nemu 23:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

but the facts say he's a SSJ2, even though it was never stated in the movie. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 (talk) 23:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

Anything that talks about him refers to SSJ. The lightning says nothing. Nemu 23:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

What proof do you have that states Gogeta was SSJ2?-- bulletproof ^3:16 23:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The only reliable sources on the internet also suggest that he was SSJ1. See www.daizex.com. The rest are just theories which by Wikipedia policy classifies as Original Research, a big no-no on Wikipedia. -- bulletproof ^3:16 23:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Wiki even states that, in the manga, its easy to distinguish between SSJ and SSJ2 since the latter has electricity in the aura. Therefore, if gogeta is a SSJ, then wiki is telling 2 different stories.

It isn't clear in the various anime adaptations (electricity is random in it), so that cannot be used with them. Nemu 00:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, it is officially stated in the Daizenshuus (The official Dragonball guides). The only people to achieve Super Saiyan 2 were Gohan, Goku and Vegeta. Majin Vegeta was Super Saiyan 2 and Goku, in many screen shots of his fight with Vegeta, was SS2 as well, but he didn't have electricity either. -- bulletproof ^3:16 00:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The daizenshuus also state that the SSJ form seen in "Lord Slug" was another form. This is inconsistent since the japanese title was Dragon Ball Z: Super Saiya-jin da Son Gokū. That means that the false super saiyan form IS SSJ. The only reason that it said it was another form in the daizenshuus is because that, by the time the anime was made, they came up with another idea as to how it should look. Therefore, the daizenshuus are inconsistent with movies.

Ohh but that is where you are wrong my friend. The 7th Daizenshuu even goes as far as naming the form as Giji Sûpâ Saiyajin, or "Quasi-Super Saiyan" stating that it is different enough from any of the other Saiyan forms to be classified as an actual transformation even though it is only a pre-super saiyan form if you will. -- bulletproof ^3:16 00:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop analyzing things; that is OR. We go for verifiability, not truth. Nemu 00:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Forget about daizenshu for now. Where in any book, manga, episode or movie do you see Gogeta with the lightning aura? Not in Fusion Reborn? Not in any game these days, and not in GT, the only thing Gogeta has is those star like things around his aura not lightning. The star aura with Gogeta is part of his fusion not his SSJ powers. You seem to have him mixed with Vegetto who in the Buu saga when he first changed did have lightning however he is still considered just a SSJ also. That is the question you should have been asked cause I got both the movie, the episode in GT and all the Budokai games and Gogeta does not in any one of these reference have the SSJ2 aura. That is why Gogeta is only to be on the SSJ list. Yes it is possible he could go SSJ2 but possiblilties have no room on this article.Heat P 01:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The daizenshuus cant be referred to for the answer, so lets throw all that out the window. Continuing on, if gogeta and his SSJ4 version have the star auras, but none of the other super saiyans, or gotenks has it, then why do you say its part of the fusion? That would mean, by what you're implying, that vegetto and gotenks should have stars in their auras, too. If you state something, you should know what it is you're stating. Now, besides the daizenshuus, which are inconsistent with the movies, can you provide OFFICIAL proof that Gogeta is, in fact, a super saiyan and not a super saiyan 2? Also, he has lightning in his aura in EVERY recent videogame, and he has it in fusion reborn.

Sorry but the Daizenshuus and the Manga are the only things Toriyama and Toei gave us for references. Peace.-- bulletproof ^3:16 01:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Gogeta does not have lightning in any game that I have and I beaten EVERYONE I have. You still did not answer my question were do you see Gogeta with lightning in his aura. Also you do not seem to watch Fusion Reborn. For Gogeta the star like aura is for his fusion only. Why? that I do not know but in Fusion Reborn when they first fuse his stars are part of his own aura despite them disappearing soon after as well as them when he first fuse in GT. So excuse me but I do know what I am talking about. You are talking to a 15 year vet on Dragon Ball, Thank you. On the Daizenshuu books they are official records approved by Akira Toriyama himself. Do your homework and know what you are talking about or state before trying to change stuff because you feel that Gogeta was a SSJ2. Now I do not know what Fusion Reborn Movie you are looking at but I'm looking at it here RIGHT NOW and as I said before the only thing Gogeta has is the stars during the beginning of the Fusion and after his aura is only a huge surge of energy. NO LIGHTNING IS SHOWN AT ALL. So again what source do YOU have that Gogeta is a SSJ2. You seem to have Gogeta and Vegetto mixed up. Heat P 02:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The daizenshuu arent consistent with the movies. DBZ: Budokai 3, gogeta had lightning in his aura, and none of the super saiyans, not even gotenks as a super saiyan, had lightning in their aura unless they were SSJ2 or higher. Do your research before making that general of a statement.

Ok I give you one freaking game out of what 20 some odd games. Also that game is not as resent as Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi games where Gogeta is not a SSJ2. But also movies are not even canon to be consistent. Daizenshuu does explain the reason why things are the way they are. Question do you actually own any Daizenshuu books to say they are not? Also I know my research . You are using a outdated game to say a character is a SSJ2. A GAME. Games of cartoon, movies, shows, cartoons and anime are not canon unless other wise said officially they are and Dragon Ball games are not offically canon to put information on a site that needs official sources for information. Other than an old game, that what other source do you have? My and other sources that Gogeta is just a Super Saiyan. First off the same movie you said he was a SSJ2 in shows clear as day he is a SSJ. 2 We have the same Daizanshuu book that the Creator of Dragon Ball approves. Heat P 02:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Also if you going by that ONE game as a source then you should be saying Vegetto is too a SSJ2 since he does the same thing when he transforms. But just as Vegetto is call a SSJ, Gogeta is too just a SSJ. Research is a lovely thing. You can argue all you want over one games mistakes but it will not change the fact that OFFICIALLY Gogeta as well as Vegetto are just consider Super Saiyans in their transformed state. Have a nice day. Heat P 03:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

how about this, ill shut up, stop arguing, admit i was wrong, etc., IF, someone can show me where it specifically states that gogeta is a SSJ.

how about this, we'll shut up, stop arguing, admit we were wrong, etc., IF, you can show us where it specifically states that Gogeta was a SSJ2. -- bulletproof ^3:16 04:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

We don't have to argue with you. We gave you official sources(Daizenshuu books, which I will say for the last time are official records on everything dealing with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, including movies that are officially approved by Akira Toriyama, the Creator of Dragon Ball). I even showed you your mistake in saying Gogeta in the movie was a Super Saiyan 2 when it clearly shows a normal Super Saiyan form, as we know for that the movie is the most official source for Gogeta. Sorry no lightning aura at all in his aura in that movie. These are our sources. If you do not want to believe them. That's you. You seem to be turning into one of them what is call a fanboy that will only believe what he or she wants to. Heat P 15:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Well said Heat.-- bulletproof ^3:16 17:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I try to keep it to the point. Heat P 18:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't SS2. There's nothing anywhere that says he was. Just because he has ungodly power doesn't mean that he his the next state up from Super Saiyan. I will use Vegetto in the main series for my example, he was the strongest character in the ENTIRE manga series according to the Daizenshuu and he was only Super Saiyan 1 when he fought Buu. But he was FAR stronger then Goku at Super Saiyan 3. Another example, Gotenks at SS was as strong as Goku at SS3. Plus the lack of lighting is a dead give-away for Gogeta, he wasn't Super Saiyan 2. --Majinvegeta 03:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan Increases A Saiyan's Power Level By How Many Times?

Does each super saiyan level increase a saiyans power a certain amount? Transforming into a oozaru (giant monkey) increases a saiyan's power level by 10 (for example, power level 18,000 Vegeta is 180,000 in oozaru). I heard that there is also an annual power increase when becoming a super saiyan. Wasn't it around 100 times a saiyan's normal power for super saiyan 1? Zachorious 02:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

100 is a dub error. A Saiyan's Super Saiyan state is 50 times his base when they first transform. After that, the multiplier decreases, but his base increases. Taken from the Daizenshuu: (eg. Goku Freeza Saga base: 3,000,000) (Goku Freeza saga Super SAiyan: 150,000,000) (And then afterward say Goku's base could be like 30,000,000 or something, but his Super Saiyan could only be like 10 times that, not fifty.) It's changes as they become used to the form. --Majinvegeta 03:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't lead 'em astray now. The manga and anime do not give any indication of a multiplier. The Daiz' gives us a 50x for Goku when he fought Freeza. Beyond that, nothing is given on the matter. Vegeta even says that a Super Saiyan's power can't be calculated mathematically. If you see anything on the matter post- Freeza then it is fancruft. Onikage725 03:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, It's just I've heard that everywhere on the MFG forum, even though I've always argued against it. I never thought the multiplier decreasing was true, it's just everyone seemed to aruge that it was. Apparently the people there don't know what they're talking about. :) I think that we should state in the article that Super Saiyan power is 50 times that of their base. --Majinvegeta 18:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we have enough to state that for a certainty. We have nothing of the sort from the manga or anime. We have from a sourcebook that Goku, when he fought Freeza, was 50x his base. We can't really say if this fluctuates later. Some (myself included) notice that a 50x constant increase for the Saiyan characters doesn't fit mathematically with the comparative performances of non-Saiyans. And since Toriyama didn't want to be tied down to the concept, he can't really use the scouter-based concept of the "power level" past the Freeza Saga. Onikage725 14:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Neko Majin Z and super saiyans.

The list of super saiyans lists onio, from NMZ as a super saiyan. Since Z went SSJ(somehow) in the manga, should he be listed as one too? On top of that, should he be considered SSJ2, since the manga identified SSJ2 with the lightning in the aura ANYTIME somone went SSJ2, and Z has that when he powers up.

Apparently you are mistaking Super Neko Majin as a Super Saiyan. That is a big false. Neko Majin is the name of the race of Cat Genies that Z belongs to as the Neko Majin article states. In one of your edits, you say that Akira Toriyama states that Z says he is a Super Neko Majin. That is right, Z is a Neko Majin not a Saiyan and he has a Super Saiyan-like transformation called, get this Super Neko Majin. Neko Majin is not Z's name it is his race like Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans. So no Z is not a Super Saiyan he is a Super Neko Majin. He is not Super Saiyan Z. He is Super Neko Majin Z. Heat P 04:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It was still written by Akira Toriyama as him going SSJ...So he went SSJ.

Sorry no. It is written Super Neko Majin. Also if A. Toriyama does state that Z did become a Super Saiyan out right and not say he looks like one or intimates, one can you give us the reference, meaning can you give us the manga number, what page and what the exact words are? Because it seems you are just going off what the Wikipedia article says which can be edited as I already done and fixed it. Not the actual manga. See there are many things in Toriyama works or Toei Studios that look, act and may feel the same. Like Cell, He has Saiyan DNA in him and has Saiyan abilities and his aura perfectly mimics Super Saiyan aura and powers. However do to him being a organic cybernetic being mixed with all types of other DNA he can not be call a Super Saiyan and we have Bojack and his henchman Gokua. Both have what looks like a Super Saiyan-like power up that changes their hair color, boast their power, strength and speed but since they are not of the Saiyan race they are not Super Saiyan. Same goes for Z. He may have a SSJ like transformation but he is not a Sayian and it is call Super Neko Majin. So again Z is not a Super Saiyan.Heat P 04:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Just because Goku transformed into a SSJ2 and Z shows him he has a SSJ-like transformation call by Z himself Super Neko Majin. Again it is a SSJ like transformation. I am looking at the page. Neko Majin Z#5 Page 187 the last two panels. Again Z is not a Saiyan he is a Neko Majin. again he is not a Super Saiyan, he is a Super Neko Majin. Toriyama did not make him a SSJ he only gave Z that SSJ like ability as a spoof off of Goku's SSJ2 form to fight him. You are trying to put false info on this page because of you beliefs and not facts. Only one fact that Z has a SSJ like transformation but you keep overlooking bigger facts. Heat P 05:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This really shouldn't be an issue. Neko Majin isn't a Saiyan. Therefore he cannot become a Super Saiyan. The end. Onikage725 14:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

I noticed the Edit war practically stopped, all you frequent Dragon Ball editors are to thank for that (and a select few IP people). That's a good thing, perhaps we can keep it that way. Good job guys. --Majinvegeta 19:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

amount of years?

I wanted to discuss this first because in the first Broly movie, it stated that Planet Vegeta was destroyed the day Goku was sent to Earth, however in the manga and anime, it was destroyed three years before Raditz's arrival on Earth (Which would make goku in his 20s). I think we should use the anime/manga date, but I just wanted to discuss first. --Majinvegeta 02:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall ever seeing the 3 yrs thing. In the Bardock special it was destroyed shortly after Goku was sent to Earth (Bardock passes baby Goku on his way to Vegeta, shortly before he confronts Freeza). Can you cite a quote from the manga that says otherwise? Onikage725 14:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I unfortunately misplaced my copy of Dragon Ball vol 17 (DBZ vol 1)when I moved, but I know for a fact that Raditz states it in the third or fourth chapter. He also states it in the original Japanese Audio of the anime. If anybody has vol 17 (DBZ vol 1) of the Manga, please cite the quote. I will see if I am able to locate my copy of vol 17. --Majinvegeta 01:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Broly: False Super Saiyan?

As everyone should know by now, there are quite a few people that come onto wiki and edit the article saying he became one. I put the part about him in there to put an end to the edits, without disturbing the truth of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 (talk) 21:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

I don't know what you mean when you say "quite a few people" have mentioned this same thing, since the only person I've ever seen mention it is you. But that's besides the point. Saying that Broly may have become a False Super Saiyan is speculation. No one has proven this statement. // DecaimientoPoético 21:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Ahem Ahem... To clear up any possible confusion, (his blue haired Super Saiyan form) is indeed a full Super Saiyan transformation, as noted in the sixth daizenshuu.... There, end of discussion.-- bulletproof ^3:16 22:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I know that, but im referring to the flashback to when he was a kid, and his body had a red and gold aura and his pupils disappeared.71.183.44.106 02:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan

Quick question about Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan stage...

In Dragonball Z episode 230 "Super Saiyan 3?!" where Goku goes SSJ3 for the first time, he demonstrates how he goes from regular state to SSJ1, SSJ2, and then finally SSJ3 to Babidi and Majin Buu. When he does this, he mentions to Babidi and Majin Buu that an ascended SSJ is also known as SSJ2. If this is correct, doesnt that make the reference to Super Saiyan 2nd grade/Ascended Super Saiyan on this page incorrect? I was always under the impression that what Goku says in this episode makes more sense; an "Ascended Super Saiyan" assumes by definition that one has moved past the Super Saiyan (SSJ1) state and into SSJ2. Make sense? Thoughts??

The difference between a SSJ1 and SSJ2 from what I can see in the tv anime is that the SSJ2 has small static lightning bolts that pulse up and down the character's body. When in the SSJ1 state, these bolts arent visible or evident. Other than that, the appearances seem remarkably similar...

If this is correct, than cant we add Vegeta and Future Trunks to the list of characters in DBZ that reached SSJ2?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.132.111.26 (talk) 03:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC).