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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 82.16.126.168 (talk) at 12:37, 9 May 2007 (→‎Nonsense?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Item one

Level bombing aka Strategic bombing is something slightly different from Terror bombing. Although the result for the civilians down there is practically the same, the reason for bombing a city is that there is war industry or military installations. Hiroshima and Dresden were an exception, not a rule. I'm thinking on how to reword the recent additions by User:Get-back-world-respect. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 20:32, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

Given that Hamburg, Berlin, and Tokyo saw the same deliberate bombing of civilians it is entirely arbitrary to call Dresden and Hiroshima an exception but the bombing of Polish cities the rule. The Nazis started with the criminal way of fighting the war, the allies copied it. Get-back-world-respect 23:40, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, you got it wrong. Terror bombing does not refer to bombing the cities (see: bombing of cities for comparison). Terror bombing generally refers to strafing the civilians on the roads, or bombing the churches and hospitals only, not the entire city with factories, houses, military and civilian facilities.
At the outbreak of WWII the Germans started both the criminal terror bombing and city bombing, but the Allies copied only the latter. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 02:37, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
The Allies also deliberately targeted civilians in order to break the morale of the enemy, see Arthur Travers Harris or Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Altogether I think that it does not contribute a lot to start a whole bunch of articles about closely related topics. I cannot see how some bombings could be classified as terror bombings and others as strategic bombings in a neutral way. "But we hit something of military importance" (along with the hundreds of thousands of civilians) is a poor excuse. Get-back-world-respect 23:23, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Allies did not target civilians they targeted their property, which the rules of war during WWII allowed and was justified by needs of total war. Philip Baird Shearer 23:24, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This statement is dead wrong and an offense to all those who died. I could not dispute more the neutrality of this article. Get-back-world-respect 01:47, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Firebombing residential neighborhoods in Japan and Germany should NOT get a pass on the consideration of terror bombing. Why are the terrible fire bombings of Japan only given one line of text while lesser incidents of the war are covered in depth? Also I find it ironic that the atomic bombs, whose sole purpose is to kill large civilian population centers, only gets one line as well. This article is not neutral by any means but I haven't the time or patience to do it myself. Karl Friedrich 02:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

in 1944 Arthur Harris changed how the RAF determined the success of a raid from acres of workers housing destroyed to number of civilian workers killed. How is that not deliberately targeting civilians? The Luftwaffee was hoplessly tied to army offenses and could never engage in the wide spread 'terror' bombing the RAF routinely did. There were exceptions, you cannot compair the number of Germans civilians murdered by the RAF to the number of British civilians murdered by the Luftwaffee.

Please sign your postings to talk pages with 4 tildes ~~~~
Killing people within the laws of war is not murder. What is your source for your statment that "Harris changed how the RAF determined the success of a raid from acres of workers housing destroyed to number of civilian workers killed"? The RAF could measure the destruction by aerial reconnaissance photography before and after, how could the RAF have counted the bodies? Philip Baird Shearer 17:07, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, then I suggest we move the bombing of london outside of it, under the same logic. Germany had no means either of counting bodies, ergo by your logic, the Luftwaffe did not target civilians.--anonymous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.123.210.71 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

picture text

Can anyone give a proper translation of the text on the Ju-52 bomber photograph? I can translate it literally (Whether figures, gasoline, bombs or bread, we bring Poland (Poles) death), but I don't understand the reference to figures or bread...they must have alternate or idiomatic meanings in this context.

terrorist aviators

the idea of "terrorist aviators" was kicked around by the Nazis Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 17: ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-SECOND DAY Friday, 5 July 1946 and I wonder if there is a hidden adjenda to this article. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:26, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do you not think that you show your agenda rather openly? Get-back-world-respect 02:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Japanese Surrender

Did the Japanese surrender unconditionally?

the potsdam decleration said

There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest, for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world.

But the surrender documents did not go that far. The surrender documents specifically the "INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER" states that like the German Armed forces the Japanes armed forces surrendered unconditionally "unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated" But unlike the German State which was subject to the Four Powers Agreement:

The Governments of the United States of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the United Kingdom, and the Provisional Government of the French Republic, hereby assume supreme authority with respect to Germany, including all the powers possessed by the German Government, the High Command and any state, municipal, or local government or authority.

In the case of the Japanese surrender document it states:

The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to ef- fectuate these terms of surrender.

It does not say that the Allied powers

assume supreme authority with respect to Japan, including all the powers possessed by the Japanese Government, the High Command and any state, municipal, or local government or authority.

So it was an an unconditional surrender of the Japanese armed forces but a conditional surrender of the Japanese government. The Japanese Emperor remaind the Emperor. [1] [2] [3] --Philip Baird Shearer 01:54, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article is disputed

Get-back-world-respect What are your reasons for desputing the neutrality of this article? Philip Baird Shearer 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As I explained above, your statement "The Allies did not target civilians they targeted their property, which the rules of war during WWII allowed and was justified by needs of total war." is dead wrong and an offense to all those who died as is this entire article, which is distorted to reflect your view.
Just take this paragraph:
Recent treaty obligations make the deliberate targeting of noncombatants a war crime. Because of modern smart bombs, modern air forces no longer need to bomb whole areas containing large civilian populations. This was demonstrated in the use of smart munitions before the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, when U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld could speak of Shock and Awe bombings that he hoped would lead to an Iraqi surrender without the destruction of large areas of Baghdad.
Treaty obligations outruling war crimes are not recent at all. "Smart bombs" cost the life of tens of thousands of innocent people. And if U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had cared about the destruction of large areas of Baghdad he would not have started a war of aggression and ignited unprecedented world-wide terrorism. I do not write my personal view into this article, and you do not help anyone if you try to smear in yours. Sorry, but there are limits to politeness. Get-back-world-respect 02:24, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Treaties defining some things as a war crime are not new. I would not disagree with you on that. Please explain to me

  • Which was the first ratified treaty which explicitly forbade the targeting of civilians or civilian property from the air?
  • Which treaty prohibited reckless endangerment of civilians in war?

If you know the answers to these questions please add the information to the "Legal framework" section. It needs a lot of work particularly on post WWII treaties. --Philip Baird Shearer 03:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


My Twopenneth: Just to pick up some points from the above talk:

Terror bombing CAN apply to cities - the bombing of Dresden was the attack that inspired the use use of this word. There were no treaties that outlawed terror bombing in WW2, and as Phillip points out, what recent treaty has just done so, as you claim? And why is the NPOV stick halfway down? THAT in itself is biassed, it implies the top half of the article is ok and the bottom is wrong, therefore demonstrating a biassed view in itself. Move the sticker to the top please, or I will. Phillips statement 'The Allies did not target civilians they targeted their property' is absolutely correct. The object of area bombing was to destroy the means of production of war, which included workers houses as well as factories. Since Germany had undertaken total war, that makes such houses a perfectly legitimate target. On the other hand, strafing refugees (a pastime of bored Luftwaffe fighter pilots) most certainly WAS terror attack. Historically, the number of civilians killed in any war is rising and the number of soldiers falling, so I think it unlikely that you'll get back to near zero civilian casualties. Lincolnshire Poacher 19:19, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, strafing refugees (a pastime of bored Luftwaffe fighter pilots)
And US Air Force pilots. Lost an uncle (who was 10 at that time) that way. Also making a distinction between targeting civilians and targeting their houses is a weak argument. "It wasn't murder your honor, I just wanted to shoot the clothes he was wearing"

I moved it down from the top of the article to a specific section because GBWS did not reply to the above and I can see that the sentence:

when U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld could speak of Shock and Awe bombings that he hoped would lead to an Iraqi surrender without the destruction of large areas of Baghdad.

Is open to two interpretations:

  1. Shock and Awe with precision munitions within the scope of Protocol I:Article 57 [4]. (Which although the US have not signed Protcol I they do recognise and abide by the principle behinf Article 57).
  2. If you are not Shocked and Awed in to surrender with precision weapons, then we will destroy large areas of Baghdad (Area Bomb you into Shock and Awe to force surrender.)

Personally I interprted the sentence 1. but I suspect that GBWR read it as 2. If you want to rewrite the sentence so that it is not ambigious then I say remove the section NPOV

Oh and BTW the term "terror bombing" was in use well before the Bombing of Dresden it was just not used to describe allied bombing by the allied media. See this speech by Goebbels one year to the Day before the Bombing of Dresden.

Those parts of the Reich that had already suffered enemy terror bombing were therefore somewhat concerned that the day would come when the Reich capital would have to endure the great test. -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]


The refutation section says, "If a party of intruders breaks into your house and threatens you, you are surely able to take whatever actions you seem fit to protect your life and property". Does it include breaking into their house and killing their cat? --Shaddack 3 July 2005 20:11 (UTC)

In relation to allied terror bombing of german cities..."Although they did not specifically target civilians, they did target civilian housing"...am I not the only one befuddled by this statement? "I didnt shoot the man, I swear, I was just shooting at the air in front of his head!". This article seriously needs to be marked as "neutrality-disputed" on the main title.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.228.129.11 (talk • contribs) 11:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on some changes to this article, as it's neutrality is indeed well disputed. The attacks on Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, and Kobe did not use conventional munitions or even attempt to mainly target production facilities, intentionally choosing massive firebombing instead. The only reason to firebombing instead of using regular bombs is to completely wipe out the civilian population through the resulting firestorm, which not only cooks everything in range but also sucks up the nearby oxygen and can kill possible survivors through suffocation. This is why "terror bombing" became linked with the Dresden bombing, and the bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Kobe, and Tokyo are most definitely examples of it as well. For any who are still confused, the difference is that strategic bombings are targeted mainly at factories and trainstations and railyards which allows for most civilians to keep their lives, whereas firebombing is the deliberate act of burning to death every man, woman, and child alive in that city. ~Iodasaphe 7:34, 29 April 2006

I presume that you will be providing sources to back up the statement that "The only reason to firebombing instead of using regular bombs is to completely wipe out the civilian population through the resulting firestorm", Because There are a lot of sources to refute that statement. For example the dehousing paper by Cherwell:
If even half the total of 10,000 bombers were dropped on the built-up areas of these fifty-eight German towns the great majority of their inhabitants (about one-third of the German population) would be turned out of house and home (Longmate the Bombers page 131)
To by cynical it is much more effective to dehouse a population in Northern Europe than to kill them because the defending side has to divert resources to re-house them which does not have to be done if they are dead. This is exactly the same cynical motives for producing weapons which wound and do not kill outright. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote "The difference is that strategic bombings are targeted mainly at factories and trainstations and railyards which allows for most civilians to keep their lives, whereas firebombing is the deliberate act of burning to death every man, woman, and child alive in that city. " What is your source for this statment? --Philip Baird Shearer 12:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although they did not specifically target civilians, they did target civilian housing and other civilian infastructure which was known to cause a large loss of life among civilians. This, as has been pointed out several times, is complete rot. (NB: Strafing of civilians is not TERROR BOMBING, as there are no BOMBS involved.) Colonel Mustard 05:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Use of aerial bombardment by Japan in China during the Second Sino-Japanese War

This is an important part of terror bombing before WWII not least because of the diplomatic traffic it generated like:

There is also a couple from Neville Chamberlain but I can not find them on the web right now. --Philip Baird Shearer 07:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Aerial Bombardments Since World War II

Modern weapons do not, however, prevent collateral damage. There are instances in all recent conflicts of civilians being killed by airborn munitions. Whether intentional or not, the psychological impact of these weapons can be experienced as the same as terror bombing.

While I greee with the first two sentences I am not at all sure about the third. What is the evidence that smart munitions induce the same psychological impact on a population the same as the deliberate targeting of that population by aerial attack? So can we have a source for this please.

There are also particular concerns in the modern world about the use of airborn landmines. Such mines can be spread indiscriminately and cannot be marked, effectively denying large areas to the civilisan population, often including vital farmland and infrastructure.

Please can we have a source for "particular concerns in the modern world about the use of airborn landmines". --Philip Baird Shearer 20:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


number of killed civilians by Allied Forces

there exists a lot of serious sources, which tell, that more than 600 000 civilians, among them 80 000 children were killed by raids of Allied Forces against german cities. If it isn't believable, may be there should be installed a own page, which lists all raids of Allied Forces against german cities, with the number of civilians, which were killed in any raid. There were more than 1000 raids. Wega14 18:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Now you write: killed civilians in Third Reich. But I think, there is a big difference, between Third Reich and Germany. Third Reich was the whole empire of Nazis, with all occupied countries, isn't it? But in sources it's written about german cities, isn't it? Wega14 18:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, the Third Reich territory consists of those regions under the direct rule of Berlin before September 1939. All occupations and annexations (eg all those annexed disputed territories in Poland) after the start of the war were/are not considered part of the Third Reich. I an not sure of the Sudetenland or the rest of Czechoslovakia, but they were so far east that it would not effect the numbers much either way unless the Allies include the USSR. The major territory that the Third Reich includes which most pople would not include in their understanding of Germany is Austria which was bombed (I think mainly by the USAAF Ninth/Fifteenth Air Force operating out of North Africa and Italy· This source says 24,000 Austrian civilians were kille during bombing raids. I think that a clear definition of what is meant by Germay when 600,000 is mentioned is needed to clarify this point --Philip Baird Shearer 19:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One other thought does the 80,000 dead children include the boys killed while manning the Anti-aircraft guns or do they count as combatants? --Philip Baird Shearer 21:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How cynic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.113.101.21 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Merging of Aerial bombing of cities and Terror bombing

As the articles stand, I see them very similar although I understand there are some subtle differences. Perhaps they could both be merged...? --Francisco Valverde 20:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Polnish cities of wielun, Frampol etc.

these cities could not be counted as terror bombings, because the goal was of tactical nature and not to weaken the moral of the population to for a governement to surrender. The small town of wielun was attacked by 29 Stuka precision bombers. The target was the headquarter of an army division stationed there. this was the first german attack of the war. Theplan was a military behanding strike as prepartion for the proposed braekthrough of the german army group south 15 kilometer from there. Because of fog the attack went wrong and hit the city center. there is no connection why the german side should use a small countryside town (which was coquered on the same day by the germans) to force ponish goverment to surrender. thats not logical. Because poland was in such a bad military conidition at that time, that it was just a question of days anyway till they will military surrender. there was no need of vasting ammo. in a large scale terror bombing campaign. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Klastor (talk • contribs) 08:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense?

In the 1991 'Gulf War' the USAF dropped more bombs on Baghdad in single raids than were dropped on Japan in the whole of the Second World War
A Lancaster drops bundles of incendiary bombs (left), incendiary bombs and a “cookie” (right) on Duisburg on 15 October 1944. 9,000 tons on bombs were dropped on Duisburg in less than 24 hours during Operation Hurricane (1944)

It is true that the USAF did not drop any bombs on Japan because it was the USAAF that did that. However the USAAF dropped far more in both quantity and tonnage than was dropped in a single raid on Baghdad. If the claim is true then please give the date for the a specific air raid and the number of sorties flown in that raid, because even if one assumes that the Americans were dropping cluster bombs and counted bomblets, the total number of incendiaries alone dropped on Japan would have been far higher. According to the Bombing of Tokyo in World War II article B-29s delivered 147,000 short tons, (133,000 metric tons) on the home islands of Japan. According to this article "Iraq and Kuwait ... 88,500 tons of bombs have been dropped in over 109,000 sorties flown by a total of 2,800 fixed-wing aircraft." which is well short of the tonnage dropped on Japan, and includes tactical targets (like soldier in the desert) as well as on Baghdad. If one uses that source given above, only 3,000 out of 250,000 bombs dropped were on metropolitan Baghdad, which makes for a total of 88,500/250,00=0.354 tons per bomb, times 3,000 is 1,062 tons of bombs on Baghda, which is less than the tonnage dropped on Tokyo on night of March 9–10, (1,700 tons of bombs (see Strategic bombing during World War II#United States strategic bombing of Japan)) --Philip Baird Shearer 15:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

public perception

In the 1930s, the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica both conducted aerial attacks during the Spanish Civil War. The bombing of Guernica was the foremost example, leading to the seminal painting of "Guernica" by the artist Picasso showing all the horror and terror of such attacks. Many other cities were also bombed in this conflict, including Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla, Zaragoza, Malaga, Bilbao, Alicante, and Valladolid.

lol why does it seem like Picassos painting appears in every single Spanish Civil War article? Anyway, cities being bombed means nothing, those cities held enemy troops, artillery, tanks, and defenses. Guernica held enemy troops, had 2 weapons factories, and a bridgehead. Guernica is widely considered by military historians not to have been terror bombing- see works by James S Corum for validation.

Whoever is writing this article needs to somehow separate out public perception of what terror bombing is- attacks on cities to frighten and kill civilians, and what constitutes legitimate ground attack targets for airforces. You can turn to a book called Paths to Heaven for ideas to rip off.

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