Talk:Battle of Van

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npov

I don't know enough history to weigh in, but this article definitely needs to be looked at by someone more knowledgable. This page has been edited to now contain some extreme text referring to genocide. The language is far different than what the article used to contain. I'm sure it needs to be toned down, but I'm not sure where to get started. lowercase 07:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Immediate Attention Tag R--OttomanReference 02:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)emoved

This article appears to be under control now, with POV police on patrol. Have removed tag. Buckshot06 08:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote the Van resistance article, and could not find any source for a so-called "Battle of Van" - do an internet search, see what happens. Battle of Van usually refers to the self defense battle of Van. This needs to be merged into van resistance. Hetoum I 03:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favour of this merge. Battle of Van does not exist... it's just another name for Van Resistance. - Fedayee 04:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The military activity covered in this article is not the continuation of the initial resistance developed by the Armenian militia during April of the same year. The story of the "local resistance" is explained under Van Resistance. The Battle of Van is the story of the Ottoman Army (which is by the way a different branch of the second army, can not be claimed a continued conflict) being faced with the Russian detachment units of Armenian volunteer units. Russians build a small garrison in the city during the period May-August. Yes! the city is same city and there were some local Armenian forces sided with Russians. Besides these points; Battle of Van is classified as an armed conflict between Ottoman Empire and Russia, which is strongly different than the sides of the Van resistance. I strongly object this proposal as the proposal do not show any serious consideration on the sides and forces in these conflicts. This proposal is a personal view of an author on how the history should be written; as s/he accepts the historical terminology assigned (Battle of Van), but rejects the article and claim that it should be part of a "local resistance". Thanks. --OttomanReference 22:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no battle of Van, I researched topic in university library. Only Armenian resistance occured. This article doesnt even cite its "so-called sources." Please stop writing fairly tales without citations!Hetoum I 00:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would not want to claim you are a lier, but the military activities of August-September is a fact, which you do not deny. You also tell van resistance is on April-May. How someone can argue with you, if you deny the basic differences. I'm speechless. This is just plenty wrong, and you wage a war, on the topics of history, like Armenians waged a war during WWI to Ottoman Empire. --OttomanReference 13:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can claim I am a liar all you want. Fact is, at the end of the day, I researched topic, found no so called "battle of van" or local armenian garrison that was destroyed by ottomans. All Armenians evacuated, and no term is known for this 1 month period of ottoman reoccupation. this place is not a place for OttomanReferences OriginalResearch. I cite sources, you don't, this is why I am credible and you are not! 72.79.62.219 19:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Before you come and began to vandalize articles (which end up with your original user was being banned); this conflict is already discussed, with other Armenians, who had access to Armenian sources. They also say that the events of this article is in their sources, and funny thing is that you do not reject the events. However the difference between you and others is that you want to shape everything in your own view. If they do not fit your ideology, you ignore valid arguments brought, (read the first response). There is no way; a person like you can be negotiated and proven that some concepts of your idealogy (I guess it is a religion for you) is wrong. You do not even read your own responses: "You use the word "garrison" which is a military term, but you deny the word "battle" to the event that destroyed the "garrison"". Also you accept that after van resistance (which is a local movement) within the time (three months) Ottoman Armenians build a garrison. Existence of garrison is the proof that this is not a local resistance anymore but an organized military activity, which comes the name "battle". From ottoman perspective, the forces inwolved in both conflicts are different, which makes them different military events. You are not here with a good faith and If I continue with your argumentation; I can claim "Armenian genocide" did not happened because the events written in that article do not have the name genocide in Turkish history books. That is what you are doing but from Armenian side, plain strait. --OttomanReference 02:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not even try to whine your way around the victim card as you are attacking someone.

Before you come and began to vandalize articles (which end up with your original user was being banned); this conflict is already discussed, with other Armenians, who had access to Armenian sources. Yes, they came to opposite conclusions as you, found you doing original research, and making things up, that is why one of your articles - April 24 circular - is down the drain, and more will follow. And you are stupid to think I was banned. Before you make stupid comments like that you should realize that my old page would have been la belled with a vandal tag, and i would not use the same name and interlink accounts because same admin would ban me in minutes. I got locked out because username was same as password!

They also say that the events of this article is in their sources, and funny thing is that you do not reject the events. However the difference between you and others is that you want to shape everything in your own view. If they do not fit your ideology, you ignore valid arguments brought, (read the first response). There is no way; a person like you can be negotiated and proven that some concepts of your idealogy (I guess it is a religion for you) is wrong.

Stop blabbering nonsense, and stick on topic.

You do not even read your own responses: "You use the word "garrison" which is a military term, but you deny the word "battle" to the event that destroyed the "garrison"". THERE! You lie again as you attack me and call me a liar. I just said above I found no evidence of some fairy nonexistent garrison.

Also you accept that after van resistance (which is a local movement) within the time (three months) Ottoman Armenians build a garrison. Existence of garrison is the proof that this is not a local resistance anymore but an organized military activity, which comes the name "battle". From ottoman perspective, the forces inwolved in both conflicts are different, which makes them different military events.

What Are you talking about? What military activities, stop pulling things from thin Air! Russians moved in and took control, there is not this fair independence you speak of.

You are not here with a good faith and If I continue with your argumentation; I can claim "Armenian genocide" did not happened because the events written in that article do not have the name genocide in Turkish history books. That is what you are doing but from Armenian side, plain strait. People with better mastery of English have come and tried and gotten thrown out - and you above comments reveal your bad faith not mine - including your selective interpretation and manipulation of cats. Hetoum I 01:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not get mad! Be calm! References of your sentences are coming from your edits in Van resistance. Just stop and think. Lets say that there is no "Russian Army" in the Van during August 19 (which their existence are proven by pictures :-) ) . Armenians who fought during the Van resistance (in April) just vanished to thin air after three months of having the control of the city?? Your claim: There was no resistance to the incoming ottoman units (in August), even though they build tranches and defense lines (these are from your edits also). In August, the Ottoman Units did not face any resistance (no battle, no resistance) and recapture the city for nearly a month. These inaccuracies are the problem of your argument. If you have a little bit respect to the truth, you could have recognize these problems of your argumentation. Armenian militia is one side of the story. You also claim that Russian army captures a very important city (city at the cross roads) and leaves it defenseless. If it is not important why did they returned to recapture the city with a bigger force one more time? All the pieces of this battle is originating from your edits. I can see you do want to tell the achievements of the great Armenian military force, and this article does not fit to that picture. But please be akilli and have a nice day. Thanks. --OttomanReference 06:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

yea yea, stop saying what you said in your last post and going through this stupid maze of circular logic. I am still citing source you are not. you are still doing original research, and I am not. My sources are credible and verifiable via the internet. are yours? so before you post your next post, seriously try not to repeat yourself.72.79.62.219 21:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]