Talk:Temporal single-system interpretation

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Talk page discussion through 27 April, 2007: [1]

Talk page discussion between 28 April, 2007 and 12 May, 2007: [2]

Talk page discussion between 12 May, 2007 and 9 August, 2007: [3]

Reverting to protected version pending discussion and consensus

I have just reverted the article to the version protected by WJBscribe on 22 May, pending discussion and consensus regarding the changes that Watchdog07 wants. WP:CON states, "Consensus is Wikipedia's fundamental model for editorial decision-making."

Watchdog07 has explained why he thinks his version is better, as he says in his edit summary, but he hasn't justified his proposed changes. These changes seem highly non-neutral to me. In any case, there is as yet no consensus that they should be made. Please let's discuss and arrive at consensus before making any major changes to the article. andrew-the-k 23:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with andrew-the-k's rationale. Since the article has only relatively recently been unprotected, it is important that major changes be agreed to on the talk page. Editors should try to avoid edit waring and work on building consensus. The version that was protected is the ground zero. Sunray 22:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This argument is scurrilous. When a version of an article is protected - which it is no longer - it in no way implies that it is "the right version". Watchdog07 15:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Hardly a "scurrilous" argument. As Andrew has pointed out, editorial decisions are made by consensus. Let us discuss changes to the article here and work at consensus. Sunray 19:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Critique of TSSI

David Laibman added the following text to the article, and at my request, provided references:

Some critics, however, find this response inadequate. Followers and developers of Marx's theory of value recognize that the earliest formulations from the 1850s, as presented in "Capital," Vol. III, fail to resolve the issue of a structurally consistent presentation of value formation in a capitalist economy with competitive profit-rate equalization. Marx's fundamental insights can be revealed, and extended, by means of models and concepts that emerged after his time. Instead of trying to defend the "consistency" of Marx's original statement, most present-day Marxist theorists seek to pursue ever-more effective versions of the core theory, as Marx himself would have done. Moreover, defenders of the TSSI ignore their critics' central arguments. First, the "consistency" that they claim for Marx's work is achieved at the expense of any theoretical coherence. If input values differ from output values, each being determined by the fortuitous conditions of a single "temporal" moment, value is reduced to a mere empirical description, without structure or role in revealing inner properties of capitalist social relations. Second, the presumed defense of Marx's law of the falling rate of profit, resting on a distinction between a (rising) "material" or "simultaneous" rate of profit and a (falling) "value" rate of profit, has been shown to be invalid. Analysis of the TSSI numerical examples reveals, instead, that their "value" rate of profit ultimately follows the course of the "material" rate. The TSSI construction simply fails to address the complex determinants of the level and trend of the rate of profit in capitalist economies.

REFERENCES

Laibman, David. 1999. “The Okishio Theorem and Its Critics: Historical Cost Vs. Replacement Cost,” Research in Political Economy, Vol. 17, pp. 207--227

Laibman, David. 2000. “Rhetoric and Substance in Value Theory: An Appraisal of the New Orthodox Marxism,” Science & Society, Fall, pp. 310--332; Also in The New Value Controversy and the Foundations of Economics, ed. Alan Freeman, Andrew Kliman, and Julian Wells, Edward Elgar, 2004

Laibman, David. 2002. “Value and the Quest for the Core of Capitalism,” Review of Radical Political Economics, 34:2 (Spring), pp. 159--178

[To SUNRAY: Here are references for the added paragraph; they should be inserted into the footnotes. I don't know how to do that. Can you help? // I could prove the claim re "some critics" by adding more references, but don't want to overburden the article -- dl]

David, could you please indicate (perhaps by adding numbers to the text, above) where specific citations should be added? It seems to me that this addition contributes to the presentation of TSSI to the reader. As to which critics: we should refer to at least two, so it would be good to have cites for those. Your comment about "overburdening the article" has another meaning for me: We must bear in mind that this is an article to explain to the general reader what TSSI is. So we shouldn't get into the minute details of the critique. On the other hand, the reader will benefit from knowing that there are alternative points of view about this and we can refer to further reading on the subject. Sunray 20:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi David,

Glad to see you here! I think the article can benefit from discussion of substantive criticisms of, and reasons for dislike of, the TSSI. I think we can use your paragraph as a starting point in order to arrive, through discussion and consensus, at a balanced and informative addition to the TSSI article.

Your paragraph won't do in its original form, partly because it doesn't have the neutral tone and balance of an encyclopedia article, as required by Wikipedia. As I see it, the paragraph should indicate that Marx's theory as interpreted by the TSSI doesn't fulfill some aims that some critics of the TSSI think a theory (or Marxian theory) should achieve, it should list these aims, and it should include the response of TSSI theorists. What do you think?

To take up your current version as a starting point, could you please explain "If input values differ from output values, each being determined by the fortuitous conditions of a single "temporal" moment, value is reduced to a mere empirical description, without structure or role in revealing inner properties of capitalist social relations"? I've read this a half-dozen times, but don't understand it. If I don't, the average reader won't, I suspect.

Also, let me say that I think the 1st sentence of your paragraph should be omitted, since what follows is not about the text that precedes the paragraph (which deals with whether TSSI research asserts that Marx's formulations are literally and completely correct), but about something new and distinct.

andrew-the-k 02:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV?

This phrase: "the allegations of inconsistency have served to legitimate the censorship of Marx's theories of value and the falling rate of profit and the suppression of current research based upon them," seems pretty POV to me. I know there are sources below, but one of them just says that Marxism isn't studied, it doesn't say that it's suppressed, while I believe Andrew Kilman's suitability as a sources has been questioned before on the talk page. Makerowner 19:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Makerowner makes a good point about neutrality. How could the paragraph be written in more neutral language? Sunray 23:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I could live with the wording in the Marxian_economics article, which attributes the idea to me. But Makerowner seems to be questioning whether I'm a reliable source for purposes of the TSSI article. If so, the wording in the Marxian_economics article won't satisfy him/her.

Cassidy doesn't just say that Marx's value theory isn't studied; he suggests that it isn't studied because it is "riven with internal inconsistencies." This means that the charge of inconsistency is accepted as true, and, having been accepted as true, serves to suppress the theory (i.e., "inhibit the expression of" it; see below).

Perhaps the word suppress is at issue? It doesn't (usually) mean repress or oppress. Here are a couple of the definitions of suppress given at [4]:

To keep from being revealed, published, or circulated;

To inhibit the expression of (an impulse, for example); check: suppress a smile.

So I think it is self-evident--and thus actually needs no sources at all--that the very purpose of charging internal inconsistency is to suppress--keep from being circulated, inhibit the expression of--an argument or theory. No one charges that an argument or theory is internally inconsistent in order to help propagate it.

I'd be very interested in learning David Laibman's thoughts on this, since he is another reliable source for purposes of this article.

andrew-the-k 03:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's mostly the word 'suppress' that bothers me here. It suggests some sort of conspiracy to keep people from studying Marxism by saying that it's inconsistent. Maybe something like this would be better: "The study of Marxism has dramatically declined in the years since its critics first claimed that it was internally inconsistent." A source will of course be needed to show that the study of Marxism has declined. No offense, Akliman, but since your book is devoted to defending Marxism from the claim of inconsistency, I think a more neutral source would be preferable. And it's 'he' by the way. Makerowner 05:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not wedded to the word suppress. What's at issue isn't Marxism in general or even Marx's work in general, nor is it study alone. I think the following preserves the sense of the original without saying suppress: "Since internally inconsistent theories cannot possibly be right, the allegations of inconsistency have served to inhibit, on seemingly legitimate grounds, the public's access to, study and discussion of, and current research based upon, Marx's theories of value and the falling rate of profit." As explained above, this seems to me to be too obvious to need any citations at all. It is not a claim that access, study, etc. have actually declined, which probably would need documentation. andrew-the-k 06:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)