Talk:Transgender

Archived

Removed old talk to /Archive_01. Includes all unsigned comments and of course YATVT (Yet another Transgender versus Transsexual) debate AlexR 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• I've now moved it to /Archive 1 so that the {{archives}} box will work, and I've set up miszabot to archive further items older than 30 days into the same file. --AliceJMarkham 08:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Historical examples

This article claims there are countless historical examples of transgendered people yet provides no reference, should the claim be removed without proof or else provide a reference? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.218.228.176 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Transgender and Criticism

The very last paragraph under this heading is a bit argumentative. I didn't want to delete it myself bu felt it should be addressed. The part I'm getting at is the whole "biological determinism" and everything after the use of that phrase. It's an obvious bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kiyae (talk • contribs) 09:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

please post the section you think needs work here and offer any alternatives. Benjiboi 11:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Section: Transvestite

This section is load of random comments which have no references and cannot be verifiable.

A transvestite is someone who cross-dresses, but transvestic fetishism is a medical term for someone with a fetish for cross-dressing. To prevent confusion, the term "transvestite" has been rejected in favor of "cross-dresser.

Transvestic fetishism has been considered a derogatory term, as it implies a hierarchy in which the sexual element of transgender behavior is of low social value.

It is often difficult to distinguish between a fetish for cross-dressing, and transgender behaviour that includes sexual play.''

Who said all this? Please... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MalikaTG (talk • contribs) 00:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This is another Edit by NatalyaAF

I cleaned it up. I deleted the last two lines and re-wrote the first.

Someone should check it to see whether it's okay now or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NatalyaAF (talk • contribs) 08:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• I read what was there before you changed it, and what you changed it to and wasn't entirely happy with either. In the end, I split Transvestic fetishism into a separate section and rewrote them both. I'm still not entirely convinced that both are satisfactory, and I haven't dug out references for the wording that I've used but I think that it is an improvement on what was here. --AliceJMarkham 09:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I went through it and cited it. NatalyaAF, I believe your concerns were that transvestic fetishism is fetishistic and intermittent and should be differentiated as such from other categories. AliceJMarkham, I believe that you had similar concerns but I need to point out that your proposed solution of putting "Transvestic fetishism" in a separate section resulted in "Transvestic fetishism" appearing as a transgender identity in the contents list, which was probably not what you intended. I have reworded the entry accordingly and placed sufficient citations to justify removal of the "disputed" tag. I believe the reworded and fully cited version addresses your concerns. Kind regards, Anameofmyveryown 06:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC) (I used to be Editwikipediausername but I had to change it: it used the word "wikipedia" and that's not good.)

• Much better. I approve. :) --AliceJMarkham 14:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

just wondering

Does "transgender" mean that a women is born with a penis, and has breasts? Or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.251.174.137 (talk • contribs) 07:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think your question(s) are clearly addressed in the article. Benjiboi 22:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would someone who is friendly to the gay community blandly state that Ayatollah Khomeini gave his approval to transgender surgery with out pointing out the forced gender reassignment surgery imposed on gay men in that country? Are transgenders truly friendly to rest of the LGBT community or are you just biding your time to make us all trannies or be put to death? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist (talk • contribs).

Assume good faith please. Per WP standards any materially likely to be questioned or cause conflict should be properly sourced. If another editor has removed it and you still think it's appropriate for this article then introduce it to these pages for comments. Potentially a less POV version would work to make the article better or the material would be more useful on other articles within the same field but on a different subject. Benjiboi 22:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Why should criticism of transgender rationale, which is clearly designed to put clear blue water between themselves and gay people, be disallowed and removed? OK, lets all just say nice things about hormone treatments and genital surgery then you will all be happy. Is there any other example of pschiatrists and pschologists advocating radical organ removal surgery to deal with a pschological issue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist (talk • contribs) 21:29, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Body integrity identity disorder is second on the right, just down the hall - Alison ☺ 22:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Once again, my properly sourced comments were removed because they dared to expose the hypocritical and homophobic rationale that is increasingly to be found in academic transgender theory. Catherine Crouch's film served as timely warning of the current situation in Iran and what could happen here. Only acceptance of transgender rationale is accepted as 'neutral' or 'sourced' material and suitable for the public to read. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R jay72 (talk • contribs) 22:59, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

I have gone through the changes that you have made recently. Not one of the additions that you have made was accompanied by a reference, and several of the changes that you made included removing referenced information while leaving behind the reference that supported the information that you removed. In particular, there is a reference to a study that shows that the majority of crossdressers are heterosexual, and you seem to be insistent upon attempting to remove this fact from the article. If you want to add a new fact to an article, you must provide a verifiable reference to prove that it is a fact. If you want to provide a reference that contradicts one that is already here, such as a study that shows that the majority of crossdressers are not heterosexual, it and the existing one would both belong in the article, stating the contradiction. That's how wikipedia works. You have stated that your additions were "properly sourced", but you haven't provided the necessary references to show it. Oh, and please sign your posts in talk pages --AliceJMarkham 00:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, Alison or Alice, why would someone writing on this board that was friendly to gay people refer positively to Ayatollah Khomeint approval of the use of gender reassignment surgery without acknowledging its misuse and homophobic aspect? You only want positive aspects of transgenderism mentioned, without any criticism. It is clear that patriarchal society does favor transgenderism over, or as a solution to, homosexuality; this is why transgendered people are allowed to get married whereas gay couples are not. The article on crossdressers you mentioned sugests most crossdresser identified as heterosexual, not that they are heterosexual; there is a big difference. Men, even when crossdressed when having sex with another man, they are in the category of men who have sex with men and therefore are not heterosexual. It is possible they crossdress for purposes other than having sex with other men of course, but in my experience, this is most common aim of doing so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 (talk • contribs)

Well, since you mentioned me by name, I'd better answer :) Personally, I've no investment in this one way or another; it's just another POV and vandal-magnetic article. Khomeini is mentioned in the article (and cited) to show the exception given in Iran; the clear rationale behind that is that he found 'sex change' to be a correction of homosexuality. Acknowledging that at that point isn't really germane to the article, really. Re. trans people and marriage; if the US for example allows transsexual (whatever about transgender) people to marry, then why are so many people getting caught out on DOMA, like people who have been married for years when one partner changes sex, suddenly they're not married any more! Look at the LOVO-Ciccone case for an example of that. It cuts both ways really and the heart of the problem is down to the federal government's abhorrence of same-sex marriage in any form. And on it goes - Alison ☺ 05:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a kind of good point. Transsexuals are denied opposite sex marriages in at least four states, which have had court rulings that gender/sex is an immutable fact determined at birth, and thus in the states of Texas, Florida, Kansas, and Ohio I think... (it's a discussion page, I can be a bit vague...) a TS person cannot marry the opposite sex, as the state will refuse to accept any alteration of the sex on a birth certificate. Now, they likely couldn't marry the same sex, as the appearance of the individuals will appear to be same-sex. Also, as probably the chief gatekeeper for the MSM (men who have sex with men) article, just because someone is MSM does not mean that they are not heterosexual. The conflation of the two should not be made. --Puellanivis 00:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Note that transgenderism is broader than transsexualism - it includes people who don't necessarily identify as or fit into the roles of one or the other gender. So the argument is not that society favours transgenderism - on the contrary, it does not, but, supposedly, favours transsexualism as a solution to the broader aspects transgenderism (i.e., people must choose one gender or the other - consider than Iran is not friendly towards cross-dressing, either). I don't disagree with this idea, but anything added needs to be referenced and not personal opinion.

Do you have evidence that cross-dressing people are having sex with members of the same sex, in spite of their heterosexual identification? The article states that they identify as heterosexual, rather than being heterosexual, anyway, so we aren't misinterpretting the source. I also dispute your claim that the main purpose of cross-dressing is for sex with men (this would be hard to answer, due to the problem of defining exactly what counts as cross-dressing, since it depends a lot on whether society considers X to be cross-dressing or not). Mdwh 11:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is difficult to quantify the extent to which men that crossdress (and I would include in that category all non-full timers, including the currently accepted separate categories of drag queen, female impersonator, transvestite and cd)are having sex with other men or whether the dressing is primarily intended to attract sex partners. Nevertheless as someone with many years personal experience as a man who has identified at different periods as straighht, bi gay and trans I know enough about the subject to make educated and well-informed comment; one problem here is that there is insufficient published critical studies to cite that cast doubt or question the curent edifice of mutually exclusive categories mentioned above that are indeed designed to create a formalized separation og gay people and trans people; a separation which in my opinion is greatly exagerrated and possibly largely fictitious. In my opinion this edifice has been developed to enable mtf trans people to be untainted by homosexuality in order to be more successful at attracting heterosexual identifying male sex partners. At the head of this discussion section is a question from 'just wondering'; read that question and you will see the consequences of the idea that there exists a group of people who are women with functioning male sex organs; there are bi-curious horny young men who are clearly taken in by this nonsense and it is leading to damage to the LGBT movement and our relationship to mainstream society. Let me hear it from you Alice or Alice, if you are serious and socially responsible academics, that no such group of people exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 (talk • contribs) 16:25, August 27, 2007 (UTC)