Talk:Transgender

Archived

Removed old talk to /Archive_01. Includes all unsigned comments and of course YATVT (Yet another Transgender versus Transsexual) debate AlexR 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• I've now moved it to /Archive 1 so that the {{archives}} box will work, and I've set up miszabot to archive further items older than 30 days into the same file. --AliceJMarkham 08:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Historical examples

This article claims there are countless historical examples of transgendered people yet provides no reference, should the claim be removed without proof or else provide a reference? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.218.228.176 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Transgender and Criticism

The very last paragraph under this heading is a bit argumentative. I didn't want to delete it myself bu felt it should be addressed. The part I'm getting at is the whole "biological determinism" and everything after the use of that phrase. It's an obvious bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kiyae (talk • contribs) 09:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

please post the section you think needs work here and offer any alternatives. Benjiboi 11:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Section: Transvestite

This section is load of random comments which have no references and cannot be verifiable.

A transvestite is someone who cross-dresses, but transvestic fetishism is a medical term for someone with a fetish for cross-dressing. To prevent confusion, the term "transvestite" has been rejected in favor of "cross-dresser.

Transvestic fetishism has been considered a derogatory term, as it implies a hierarchy in which the sexual element of transgender behavior is of low social value.

It is often difficult to distinguish between a fetish for cross-dressing, and transgender behaviour that includes sexual play.''

Who said all this? Please... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MalikaTG (talk • contribs) 00:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This is another Edit by NatalyaAF

I cleaned it up. I deleted the last two lines and re-wrote the first.

Someone should check it to see whether it's okay now or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NatalyaAF (talk • contribs) 08:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• I read what was there before you changed it, and what you changed it to and wasn't entirely happy with either. In the end, I split Transvestic fetishism into a separate section and rewrote them both. I'm still not entirely convinced that both are satisfactory, and I haven't dug out references for the wording that I've used but I think that it is an improvement on what was here. --AliceJMarkham 09:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I went through it and cited it. NatalyaAF, I believe your concerns were that transvestic fetishism is fetishistic and intermittent and should be differentiated as such from other categories. AliceJMarkham, I believe that you had similar concerns but I need to point out that your proposed solution of putting "Transvestic fetishism" in a separate section resulted in "Transvestic fetishism" appearing as a transgender identity in the contents list, which was probably not what you intended. I have reworded the entry accordingly and placed sufficient citations to justify removal of the "disputed" tag. I believe the reworded and fully cited version addresses your concerns. Kind regards, Anameofmyveryown 06:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC) (I used to be Editwikipediausername but I had to change it: it used the word "wikipedia" and that's not good.)

• Much better. I approve. :) --AliceJMarkham 14:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

just wondering

Does "transgender" mean that a women is born with a penis, and has breasts? Or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.251.174.137 (talk • contribs) 07:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think your question(s) are clearly addressed in the article. Benjiboi 22:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would someone who is friendly to the gay community blandly state that Ayatollah Khomeini gave his approval to transgender surgery with out pointing out the forced gender reassignment surgery imposed on gay men in that country? Are transgenders truly friendly to rest of the LGBT community or are you just biding your time to make us all trannies or be put to death? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist (talk • contribs).

Assume good faith please. Per WP standards any materially likely to be questioned or cause conflict should be properly sourced. If another editor has removed it and you still think it's appropriate for this article then introduce it to these pages for comments. Potentially a less POV version would work to make the article better or the material would be more useful on other articles within the same field but on a different subject. Benjiboi 22:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Why should criticism of transgender rationale, which is clearly designed to put clear blue water between themselves and gay people, be disallowed and removed? OK, lets all just say nice things about hormone treatments and genital surgery then you will all be happy. Is there any other example of pschiatrists and pschologists advocating radical organ removal surgery to deal with a pschological issue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist (talk • contribs) 21:29, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Body integrity identity disorder is second on the right, just down the hall - Alison ☺ 22:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Once again, my properly sourced comments were removed because they dared to expose the hypocritical and homophobic rationale that is increasingly to be found in academic transgender theory. Catherine Crouch's film served as timely warning of the current situation in Iran and what could happen here. Only acceptance of transgender rationale is accepted as 'neutral' or 'sourced' material and suitable for the public to read. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R jay72 (talk • contribs) 22:59, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

I have gone through the changes that you have made recently. Not one of the additions that you have made was accompanied by a reference, and several of the changes that you made included removing referenced information while leaving behind the reference that supported the information that you removed. In particular, there is a reference to a study that shows that the majority of crossdressers are heterosexual, and you seem to be insistent upon attempting to remove this fact from the article. If you want to add a new fact to an article, you must provide a verifiable reference to prove that it is a fact. If you want to provide a reference that contradicts one that is already here, such as a study that shows that the majority of crossdressers are not heterosexual, it and the existing one would both belong in the article, stating the contradiction. That's how wikipedia works. You have stated that your additions were "properly sourced", but you haven't provided the necessary references to show it. Oh, and please sign your posts in talk pages --AliceJMarkham 00:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, Alison or Alice, why would someone writing on this board that was friendly to gay people refer positively to Ayatollah Khomeint approval of the use of gender reassignment surgery without acknowledging its misuse and homophobic aspect? You only want positive aspects of transgenderism mentioned, without any criticism. It is clear that patriarchal society does favor transgenderism over, or as a solution to, homosexuality; this is why transgendered people are allowed to get married whereas gay couples are not. The article on crossdressers you mentioned sugests most crossdresser identified as heterosexual, not that they are heterosexual; there is a big difference. Men, even when crossdressed when having sex with another man, they are in the category of men who have sex with men and therefore are not heterosexual. It is possible they crossdress for purposes other than having sex with other men of course, but in my experience, this is most common aim of doing so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 (talk • contribs)

Well, since you mentioned me by name, I'd better answer :) Personally, I've no investment in this one way or another; it's just another POV and vandal-magnetic article. Khomeini is mentioned in the article (and cited) to show the exception given in Iran; the clear rationale behind that is that he found 'sex change' to be a correction of homosexuality. Acknowledging that at that point isn't really germane to the article, really. Re. trans people and marriage; if the US for example allows transsexual (whatever about transgender) people to marry, then why are so many people getting caught out on DOMA, like people who have been married for years when one partner changes sex, suddenly they're not married any more! Look at the LOVO-Ciccone case for an example of that. It cuts both ways really and the heart of the problem is down to the federal government's abhorrence of same-sex marriage in any form. And on it goes - Alison ☺ 05:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a kind of good point. Transsexuals are denied opposite sex marriages in at least four states, which have had court rulings that gender/sex is an immutable fact determined at birth, and thus in the states of Texas, Florida, Kansas, and Ohio I think... (it's a discussion page, I can be a bit vague...) a TS person cannot marry the opposite sex, as the state will refuse to accept any alteration of the sex on a birth certificate. Now, they likely couldn't marry the same sex, as the appearance of the individuals will appear to be same-sex. Also, as probably the chief gatekeeper for the MSM (men who have sex with men) article, just because someone is MSM does not mean that they are not heterosexual. The conflation of the two should not be made. --Puellanivis 00:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Note that transgenderism is broader than transsexualism - it includes people who don't necessarily identify as or fit into the roles of one or the other gender. So the argument is not that society favours transgenderism - on the contrary, it does not, but, supposedly, favours transsexualism as a solution to the broader aspects transgenderism (i.e., people must choose one gender or the other - consider than Iran is not friendly towards cross-dressing, either). I don't disagree with this idea, but anything added needs to be referenced and not personal opinion.

Do you have evidence that cross-dressing people are having sex with members of the same sex, in spite of their heterosexual identification? The article states that they identify as heterosexual, rather than being heterosexual, anyway, so we aren't misinterpretting the source. I also dispute your claim that the main purpose of cross-dressing is for sex with men (this would be hard to answer, due to the problem of defining exactly what counts as cross-dressing, since it depends a lot on whether society considers X to be cross-dressing or not). Mdwh 11:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is difficult to quantify the extent to which men that crossdress (and I would include in that category all non-full timers, including the currently accepted separate categories of drag queen, female impersonator, transvestite and cd)are having sex with other men or whether the dressing is primarily intended to attract sex partners. Nevertheless as someone with many years personal experience as a man who has identified at different periods as straighht, bi gay and trans I know enough about the subject to make educated and well-informed comment; one problem here is that there is insufficient published critical studies to cite that cast doubt or question the curent edifice of mutually exclusive categories mentioned above that are indeed designed to create a formalized separation og gay people and trans people; a separation which in my opinion is greatly exagerrated and possibly largely fictitious. In my opinion this edifice has been developed to enable mtf trans people to be untainted by homosexuality in order to be more successful at attracting heterosexual identifying male sex partners. At the head of this discussion section is a question from 'just wondering'; read that question and you will see the consequences of the idea that there exists a group of people who are females with functioning male sex organs; there are bi-curious horny young men who are clearly taken in by this nonsense and it is leading to damage to the LGBT movement and our relationship to mainstream society. Let me hear it from you Alice or Alice, if you are serious and socially responsible academics, that no such group of people exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 (talk • contribs) 16:25, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

You're addressing this to me again, I guess. Firstly, I'm not a "serious and socially responsible academic", I'm an administrator on Wikipedia who happens to have an interest in LGBT issues. Secondly, what you're proposing here, on first glance, looks a whole lot like original research, unless you actually have something from secondary sources to actually back up what you're positing here - Alison ☺ 18:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"Nevertheless as someone with many years personal experience as a man who has identified at different periods as straighht, bi gay and trans I know enough about the subject to make educated and well-informed comment" I've met numerous people who have many years of personal experience being XY, and are still not qualified to make educated and well-informed comments. When I was on Jury Duty, there were people there that felt that if a defendant didn't take the stand to defend him/herself, that it was a sign of guilt. They've lived their whole life as Americans, yet are not able to give educated or well-informed comment about fundamental American rights.

"one problem here is that there is insufficient published critical studies to cite that cast doubt or question the curent edifice of mutually exclusive categories mentioned above that are indeed designed to create a formalized separation og gay people and trans people" *sigh* all of what I've seen on wikipedia is that they are INDEPENDENT categories, not mutually exclusive. "Cross-dresser" in the transgender community however is a term used specifically, and exclusively to refer to people that dress in the other gender's clothes for erotic stimulation. While drag queens/kings, and male/female impersonators do cross dress, they are not "Cross-dressers", which is a term taken to avoid the negative connotations surrounding "Transvestite". By far the motivations of a person to cross dress for personal erotic stimulation (Transvestite, or "Cross dresser"), are going to be vastly more likely to be attracted to the other sex, otherwise the person would likely find little about the other gender's clothes which would arrouse them.

"a separation which in my opinion is greatly exagerrated and possibly largely fictitious. In my opinion this edifice has been developed to enable mtf trans people to be untainted by homosexuality in order to be more successful at attracting heterosexual identifying male sex partners." Obviously, you don't have enough experience and education in trans to make educated comments. Cultures typically take one of three approaches to what is ok, what is wrong. American Christianity says that homosexuality and transgender are the same thing, and both wrong. America's larger gay-accepting community says that homosexuality is ok, and that trans people are just confused gay people. And other cultures, such as Iran, say that trans people are ok, but that homosexuals are just confused trans people. It is not our position as wikipedia editors to promote any particular one of these viewpoints, in fact, we present a Neutral Point of View, where we present all the ideas that everyone has, including that gay people are just confused trans people. Whether this edges against your personal political beliefs, my personal beliefs, or anyone's personal beliefs is moot. This is because there exist notable people for which this viewpoint is accepted as valid.

"read that question and you will see the consequences of the idea that there exists a group of people who are females with functioning male sex organs; there are bi-curious horny young men who are clearly taken in by this nonsense and it is leading to damage to the LGBT movement and our relationship to mainstream society." I will see what consequences? Just because you think it's nonsense does not mean it is not notable information for Wikipedia. And if you want to know what damages the LGBT movement, I was essentially forced out of my Employee Resource Group for LGBT individuals, because when I presented my issues and problems, they were viewed as "opposed to the greater goal" or something like that... Either way, I butt heads with a Lesbian, with a bunch of transsexual women, and stuff like that... why? Because I'm a transsexual woman who's attracted exclusively to guys. OMG! I'm a straight person in the LGBT community, what has the world come to?!

I'm really getting sick of particular subsets or groups of the LGBT community who insist that they need to encompass everyone, when not everyone will fit. I don't hang out with gays or lesbians, I have no insight into their culture, what I know about the trans culture, I get from Wikipedia, and the communities which I've been able to look into... but you know who I hang out with? Do you know where my "fit" is? It's with other heterosexual women, who are my support group, and have carried me through all of my issues, trials, and tribulations. So frankly, sorry that you think some things on Wikipedia are not LGB-friendly even when they're on T issues. But there exist those of us who do not fit your happy little world where all the LGBT people get along, and help and support each other. I've made extensive edits to the Marriage article regarding ensuring that the article doesn't portray same-sex marriage as simply invalid. I've proved that I'm willing to support the LGB community... but that doesn't mean that I'm part of them at all. Now, please, take your personal political beliefs and philosophies, and keep them off of Wikipedia... we can do it, why can't you? --Puellanivis 19:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Correction. Cross-dressing does not imply erotic stimulation, although some percentage of crossdressers do use it for that and there may well be a subconscious element of that for others, although I don't know if any research has been done on the latter. Other than that, I'd agree with essentially everything you've said. Oh, and I'm also a married heterosexual (and parent) and a member of the LGBT community. According to R jay72 (talk · contribs), I don't exist since I am never attracted to males. Or perhaps, since I am always attracted to females regardless of my own presented gender, I'm bisexual, being heterosexual when presenting as male and lesbian when presenting as female? If I was transexual, I would be a lesbian. :) --AliceJMarkham 06:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh... Cross-dressing does imply erotic stimulation, but "imply" does mean "is always a part of". There are a lot of Cross-dressers, for whom it was erotic stimulation before when they were younger, but now it's just kind of stress relief, as they've become more accustomed to wearing the clothes. As for your question, you're a heterosexual male who occasionally presents as a female. Or you can think of it as "I'm gynephilic", and ignore the whole question of what gender you are or are presenting as at the time. And for awhile, I thought I would be a lesbian transsexual, too, but then I met a few boys and it was like "omg, this is like a hojillion times better than being with a girl," and after playing around with my female roommate and getting frisky one night, it was just like "you know what? I don't actually enjoy this..." Plus, for all the girls I dated in College, I've realized that I had more interest in being friends with them, and living vicariously through them... now that I don't need to pretend to like a girl to be her friend, and I no longer need to vicariously live through anyone... well, now they just aren't romantically, or sexually attractive anymore. (NOTE: this was significantly before any operation, which STILL hasn't been done as of this post, and before I even got it through my dumb head that I was a girl, I was hitting on boys and stuff online.) --Puellanivis 19:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Puellanivis; I find it interesting that once you had enjoyed sex with boys while 'dressed' your other self, the male 'hetero' one also realised he was no longer so interested in girls; and yet you continued to need to dress to have sex with boys; why is this? I ask an honest question because it is this aspect that gay men find suspicious, as if you are trying to squeeze homosexuality into a hetero box. Was your possibly objection to sex with boys as a boy yourself a result of homophobia or perhaps that you could get hotter straighter guys when a girl? I have met some transwomen who have admitted to me that the original decisions were influenced by the desire to avoid the stigma of being gay, and that in their culture, the correct response to same-sex attraction was to transform into a girl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 (talk • contribs) 21:04, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

If you don't mind my saying at this point, this conversation has gone away from being encyclopedic and related to the article in question and has strayed into the personal. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here and draw your attention to WP:TALK - Alison ☺ 23:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

That's right Alison, as soon as we're in danger of getting to the heart of the issue, all discussion must be stopped.