Talk:Yggdrasil

Dramatic scenario

"The excellent level of preservation made it possible to deduce that he had been a prisoner of war sacrificed as a thank-offering after a victory. " No, this dramatic scenario is not warranted. I have substituted "The excellent level of preservation made it possible to deduce that he had been ritually hanged and respectfully consigned to the bog, not more than a hundred yards from where a ritually hanged woman had been found some decades previously." . --Wetman 20:32, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Irminsul

"It appears, then, that Irminsul may have been a material anchor for Yggdrasil" — is it just me, or does this make no sense? ('material anchor'??) dab (ᛏ) 07:59, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A semantic term from cognitive linguistics. When you look at Christ on the crucifix, he is a material anchor for your concept of Christ. Churches and temples are full of such material anchors.--Wiglaf 14:26, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You mean, Irminsul was an actual, natural oak? That was a `material anchor' for a `World Oak'? Would not that World Oak have been called Irminsul as well, rather than Yggdrasil, i.e. Irminsul is just the Saxon name for Norse Yggdrasil? (Apart from that, 'material anchor' sounds like a dreadfully postmodern way of saying symbol to me, but I won't dwell on that). dab (ᛏ) 14:43, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, yes AFAIK Irminsul was an actual oak that existed in real life, and which was destroyed by Charlemagne when he converted the Saxons. Go ahead and remove it if you don't like it.--Wiglaf 14:58, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

PS, symbol is a dreadfully polysemous word in semantics, but yes, it could be replaced by symbol and probably should.--Wiglaf 14:59, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick. I think I'll just slightly rephrase it. 'symbol' may be polysemous, but I think it would be correct to say that a crucifix symbolizes Christ. Christians will get angry if you desecrate it, but they will not think that you have damaged Christ. Idols are different: They are thought to actually contain a part of the deity's essence. These figures had to be 'recharged' in the main temple in the Ancient Near East. Probably nearer to a eucharist wafer: would you say that such a wafer, in the mind of a Catholic, is a material anchor, a symbol, or an idol? Difficult call. Much more in the case of the Saxons, because we don't know what they actually believed. Maybe we should just say 'represent' here. dab (ᛏ) 15:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Represent sounds perfect!--Wiglaf 15:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've read (maybe in Jung or Campbell) that Yggdrasil may also be a representation of the mind, with the trunk, boughs, etc. representing consciousness, and the roots the subconscious part of the mind.Zarathustra2101 06:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

It's possible, but I doubt the Norse knew much about the subconscious, let alone model part of their religion after such a vague and somewhat modern concept as consciousness.

Hel?

I'm just trying to dab Hel, but where it says Hel in this article, it is refering to a place and not a goddess. Hel is the goddess of the underworlds, Helheim and Niflheim, in Norse mythology, so could the person who wrote the intro be refering to the underworlds ruled by Hel? BlankVerse 15:17, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In other words a "deamon"? Resembles the Hild character I know from the anime does rule "hell" or "underworld" and the serries are going parallel to the norse mythology I think. -- Cat ^chi? 09:16, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok I am not going to hide, I am completely lost, there is a dual referance and I am confused. -- Cat ^chi? 09:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Hel (goddess): In Norse mythology, Hel is the queen of Helheim, the Norse underworld.

Helgardh, also known as Hel ("house of mists"), shares a name with the goddess who rules it. In Norse mythology, Hel is one of the nine worlds, the abode of the dead, ruled over by Hel.

We are in disambiguation hell here. -- Cat ^chi? 09:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I am not an expert but I am a fan of Norse Mythology. I have always been taught that HEL (Loki's daughter) rules HEL, also called HELHEIM. One point that the first paragraph in the article states is that Asgaard is the top and Niflheim is the bottom of the tree. This is, in my understanding, incorrect. Asgaard (home of the Aesir) is the top but Hel is the bottom. Midgaard (loosely Earth) is in the centre of the tree with Muspell and Niflheim at the same level. Muspell and Niflheim (fire and ice, respectively) joined/collided/came together and Ymir the frost giant was revealed. Odin and his brothers (Villi and Ve)kill Ymir (their father) to create Midgaard. The two worlds of the fire and frost giants still remain on the same plane (for lack of a better term) with Midgaard. Loki (a half or full giant depending on what you read) has several children one of which is Hel. Because of Loki's deceit, Hel and her brethren are banished from Asgaard. Hel is sent to the land of shadows (HEL), also translated as land of mists, etc... - Jan 07,2007 --Cjlaundrup (talk) 19:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Popular culture section

Yes, any number of things in any number of computer games and fantasy stories have been called Yggdrasil. I don't feel confident in judging which mentions are notable enough to keep but this is cluttering the article a bit, as often happens with mythology articles. Maybe we should break off the popular culture section into a separate article? - Haukurth 21:09, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

the "popular culture" section is getting out of hand. It is warranted to export them. We had to take a similar path with References to Odin in popular culture. Nobody is "disrupting" or "deleting" anything. dab (ᛏ) 07:51, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay. I see that he has now moved the content to the disambiguation page, and that does indeed make some sense. The first time I looked at it, the content had just been deleted, and not moved anywhere else. That's why I reverted the change. -- Karl Meier 07:57, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I realise anime/manga/comic/rpg/whatever freeks did not randomly pick the letters making up "Yggdrasil", I do feel Norse Mytholgy entries are fused with stuff that aren't related to the mythology aspect. The fact that lots of RPGs, and animes (most notably Oh My Goddess!) following the serries side by side makes disambigs difficult. I organised the disambig page to the best of my abilities visiting every individual page and etc. -- Cat ^chi? 09:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll be working on more "defusing". I noticed the level of fusing while editing Skuld. -- Cat ^chi? 09:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I also think Wagner is not Norse Mythology. I am not an expert but he came after the original stories and have had modified them somewhat making himself uneque (or else we wouldnt know about him). -- Cat ^chi? 09:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

The extra stuff in this section has to go. Elsewhere. I would have deleted it but it actually appears to make some sense so just deleting it didn't seem like the right thing to do.

Fakta

kan eg få fakta?

Sure. Which facts do you want? - Haukur Þorgeirsson 14:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Bellowing fire?

The bellowing fire will not scorch them…

Is this quotation correct, or should it be billowing fire? I don't know that it's wrong, just that it sounds suspiciously like a misquote. I haven't been able to find a reliable confirming source that isn't itself based on this Wikipedia entry. User:dodiad 21:40, 20 Aug 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea where that quotation is supposed to come from. The most important primary source is Gylfaginning, you can read a translation here: [1] It says:

"In the place called Hoddmímir's Holt there shall lie hidden during the Fire of Surtr two of mankind, who are called thus: Líf and Lífthrasir, and for food they shall have the morning-dews. From these folk shall come so numerous an offspring that all the world shall be peopled" Haukur 22:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation

Could someone please make the pronounciation easier to understand? I don't know how to interpret dictionary-style pronounciation keys. Something spelled out, such as

Guten Tag = GOOT-en Tahk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.7.243.100 (talk • contribs)

Yeah, could someone use English dictionary pronunciation? It doesn't do me any good to know how the Norwegians prounounce it.

ihg-dräh-sëll?

I could read that. I mean, for reals, ya'll, that's a weird looking word. TotalTommyTerror 15:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It lists an IPA pronounciation, buts its wrong. it has a "y" but there is no "y" character in IPA (or at least there isnt on the chart on wikipedia). can someone provide a correct IPA pronounciation? Mloren 13:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

English

Ygg is one of Odins names; "drasil" or drasill could mean, "dragging towards ill" -- the place Odin did some bade things. It should (also) be read as a geographical description. The name is mention in Voluspá and Grimnismál:

[Vol: 18] Ash I know standing named (Ydddrasil) Oathill a lofty tree, laved with limpid water: Thence come the dews into the dales that fall. Stands always he green above Urd’s well.

[28] Alone she sat without when (Ygg) Oath there came, that esir-fellow, and in her eye he gazed: ...

[47] Trembles Oathill's ash yet standing, that aged tree, and jotuns leave.

[Grim: 29] Turtle and Wormt and Pottery's two these he wades Thor each day, when he to council goes at Oathill's ash; for the Asbridge is all on fire, the holy waters boil. Glad and Gild, Joybringer and Seahorse, Silverintop and Sinew, Hostage and Nitemple, Goldtop and Easyfat; on these steeds the esir each day ride, when they to council go, at Oathill's ash. Three roots stand on three ways under Oathill's ash; Hel lives under one, the second frostkin, under the third mankind. Rattray is the squirrel named, run on Oathill's ash; words from above from eagle carry, and beneath to Nidblow bring. Harts four, bite of green twigs, arch-necked, gnaw. Comatose and Dozein, Downbank and Dronebliss. More serpents lie under Oathill's ash, than ignorant ape know; Goodin and Moan, they are Gravewitness sons, Grayback and Digcanalout, Oven and Sofny always i think the branches ever lacerate. Oathill's ash hardship suffers greater than men know; a hart bites it above, and in its side it rots, Nidblow beneath tears it.

Ninum 11:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

What is the name of the Eagle at the top of the tree?

I would like to know. Presumably they had a name for him (or her). --128.135.24.230 00:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The eagle is seen as a group of people or a clan living in the tree -- the eagle clan; they speak bird language.

[Hundingsbana II: 8]

It was the wolfkins' son's [the wolf-clan]

last achievement,

- if thou desirest to know -

west of the ocean,

that I took bears [the bear-clan]

in Brightgrove,

and the eagles' kin [the eagle-clan]

with our weapons sated.

See also [Hundingsbana I: 35, 45]

In the lay [Helgakviða Hjörvarðssonar] there was an earl named Frånmar. Frånmar had taken the form of an eagle, and protected them from a hostile army. In [Reginsmál: 26] Sigurd uses the seal of the eagle. In the lay [Fafnismál] Sigurd learn to speak the bird language. So, it's difficult to pin the eagle to a single name. Ninum 21:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Lingual error

Yggdrasil spelt as Yggdrasill as 'Old Norse' is wrong. The -ll is a newer form, currently used in modern Icelandic, of the older -lur masculine ending. Yggdrasill is correct spelling as of current Icelandic, but not in old Norse.