Talk:Death growl

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Pig squeals

I cleaned up article and took part about pig squeals out. They are definatly not growling so they don't belong here.

Bit of a Joke

This isn't real singing. Why the hell does some fake-satanic gurgle need a wiki page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.129.11 (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Define "real" singing however you want and exclude clean vocals from that definition... Now the mainstream bands aren't singing at all. But I doubt you were doing anything other than trolling... rather pathetically I might add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.150.119 (talk) 09:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

^^Wow, you fail so hard. --Sindelar 18:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added Mark Jansen

Mark Jansen is indeed a key death grunt/scream vocalist, I added him.

Added Sean McGrath & Ross Sewage

These two inpaticular are essential to the development of the death grunt/scream vocalizations, I added them.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Impaled Incision (talk • contribs) 14:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

According to who? Cite a source or gain consensus instead repeat adding those vocalists. --Leon Sword 03:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Growled vocals

No sources have shown "death grunt" to be the most common term for this vocal style, so, for now, this page should be titled "growled vocals." Jon138 21:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what criteria is growled vocals the best term - I didn't see any discussion reaching consensus? All articles link to death grunt anyway. try starting up some discussion first before taking such drastic measures. Spearhead 21:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And,....George "Corpsegrinder" Fisher of Cannibal Corpse?

Corpsegrinder (Actually lead vocal in Cannibal Corpse) can be considered as an example of very extreme death grunt?,...I think that his voice is very brutal,...Thanks for your attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dcamposurquiza (talk • contribs) 14:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

No...there are thousands of people using the death grunt. The short list on this page is supposed to only contain some vocalists that played a part in it's development. Isilioth 11:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New list of artists

It seems unproductive to have a list of key vocalists and yet have no separate list of other people that also use this style in their music. At the moment, these names are added to the existing list and almost immediately removed – a separate list would give these names a home, without being overly trivial. I imagine that such a list might be quite long and eventually require a separate article, but not so long as to be completely useless. The only argument against another list that I can think of is that there may be a few artists who only border-line on death vocals. I suggest that from this point on, rather than removing anonymous entries they should instead be added to a new list (if appropriate). — Lee J Haywood 21:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead - I proposed that long time ago, but no one seems to be interested in doing it, altho I'm not sure a list is necessary. Maybe a category would be more suitable. Anyway the list would be long, including all singers of death metal and grindcore bands as well as lots of gothic metal, doom metal and probably other singers. Spearhead 21:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A category is a sensible alternative, but it would suffer from giving a long list of people without the names of the groups that they belong to. Now that I think about it, a few people will have used these vocals in several groups – but then lists can handle that too, see for example List of female television actors. Thanks. — Lee J Haywood 22:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through some of the discussions above, I'm forced to recognise that I'm not familiar with enough artists to make such a list by myself. I had hoped to use the edit logs to gather together other contributions, but the repeated renaming of the article seems to have truncated its history. Also, I can see now that such a list would be almost as difficult to keep clean as the list of 'key' vocalists – as there would be argument over who should truly be on it and who doesn't count... Personally, I'd be more interested in a list of bands than people, but that seems out of touch with this article. — Lee J Haywood 11:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added Ross Dolan. Again. Undone. Again.

Someone who thinks he or she knows everything there is to know about death metal keeps deleting Ross Dolan (Immolation) from the list using revisions. Please don't. The man has a very distinct and easily recognizable voice and is also one of the very few vocalists who can pronounce his lyrics clearly while utilizing a very deep growl. He's been an influence for well over a decade now. I think that removing him and at the same time keeping guys from fringe bands like Mourning Beloveth on the list isn't very prudent and subjective to the extreme. On the other hand, if you want to be anal about control: go ahead. It isn't that important. Harachte 00:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is he a "Vocalists essential to the development of the growl"? "a very distinct and easily recognizable voice" isn't a good reason. "is also one of the very few vocalists who can pronounce his lyrics clearly while utilizing a very deep growl" is also not true - there are several examples, such as Dave Ingram Karl Willetts, Nick Holmes and POV. "He's been an influence" is debatable. If I think of Immolation, I think more of the guitars and drums, not the vocals that are only in a reach of 2.5 notes or so. "He is also notable for having extremely long hair" (from Ross Dolan is also a silly statement to add. Spearhead 15:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Singers

If anyone wants they can use this template {{User Metal Singer}} on their user page... it looks something like this:

This user growls in a heavy metal band.

. Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 18:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joe Wolfe, Blue Jensen and Nikfuk

I believe that Joe Wolfe of Heinous Killings, ex- Clean Flesh, Erotic Incisions, should be added to the list of pioneers of the death grunt. He has proven himself as to having the lowest guttural vocals with his most recent release, Hung with Barbwire by Heinous Killings. Along with Joe Wolfe, I think that Blue Jensen of Guttural Secrete should be added for having very unique, low, gurgle vocals, and having a rapid rate of delivery. Nikfuk, the vocalist of Sikfuk, should too be added most notably for his lack of lyrics. It has been said, that Nikfuk does not write his lyrics down but rather writes down vocal patterns for performance and recording purposes.

The following are websites that have recordings of the musicians:

Blue Jensen - http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=7015555 Joe Wolfe - http://www.myspace.com/heinouskillings Nikfuk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7TUM-Hx5k

These three very influential vocalists should be added to the list of death metal grunters. They are the sound of the new wave of death metal. Thank you for taking the time to read my claim and more importantly listen to the links i have provided, and hopefully make the changes to the list. 68.74.123.77 06:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC) a helpful metalhead[reply]

    Also Wayne Knupp of Devourment should be added to the list. Though Knupp's work was predominatly in the mid-1990s, he was one of the first to use ultra low guttural vocals.  His tone has become the benchmark for brutal death metal vocals, since his leaving Devourment.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I really don't see why this article is titled death grunt when most people know the vocal style as growling. I see people objecting to the use of the term death grunt in the discussions, people use growling in the discussions, regardless of the title of the page, and in most magazines, newspapers, e-zines etc. growling is by far the most commonly used term.

I saw google results was mentioned in a discussion about the topic, but to get somewhat valid results you have to know how to search. Here's some results from google, using quotation marks to make sure the words are used in the right context, and putting a minus sign in front of "wikipedia" and "answers.com" to try to minimize any biased search results caused by this very article. It's not entirely unbiased, as there are other web sites wich have wikipedia articles on them, but it nevertheless gives a reasonable picture of which of the two terms are the most commonly used:

"death growl" -wikipedia -answers.com : 10.600 results "death grunt" -wikipedia -answers.com : 850 results

"death metal" growling -wikipedia -answers.com :186.000 "death metal" grunting -wikipedia -answers.com : 49.900

"death metal growling" -wikipedia -answers.com : 3.110 "death metal grunting" -wikipedia -answers.com : 440

"death metal" growl -wikipedia -answers.com :111.000 "death metal" grunt -wikipedia -answers.com : 34.900

"death metal vocals" growl -wikipedia -answers.com: 14.900 "death metal vocals" grunt -wikipedia -answers.com : 946

And finally, the meaning of the words themselves gives quite different associations to the vocal style. Growling is defined by dictionary.com as: "To utter a deep guttural sound of anger or hostility", and by the American heritage dictionary as: "The low, guttural, menacing sound made by an animal". Right in the vein of the aggressive nature of death metal. Grunting, on the other hand, is defined as "to utter a deep guttural sound, as a hog does" Pigs wallowing in the dirt is not what first comes to my mind when I listen to death metal.

I think the whole idea of wikipedia is undermined if one or two persons are governing the titles, what terms to use and the content of the articles. I haven't seen any good arguments to why this article should be titled death grunt, other than "I have always known it as death grunts" wich is irrelevant and purely anecdotal. But to follow that argument I will say that I have always known it as death growls, and I heard it back in 1908, so I am right and you are not. The second argument was: "why change it anyway... every thing seems to link here and the most dominant terms are mention in the first line". And that was the end of discussion. In other words, the message was "yeah, maybe it's wrong, but why change it? If we spread the disinformation to as many people as possible, for a long enough time, someday it will become truth" Which is commonly known as propaganda. I'm sorry, i got a bit carried away there, but I hope you get my drift. I hope someone change the title of the article, or that there at least will be a decent discussion without "I heard" or "I have always" in it. --Anabiose 00:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support that death grunt be moved to death growl. I aggree with Anabiose, every reference to this singing technique I have heard or read has been "growling" or "growled vocals" or the most common, "death growl". I had never heard of the term death grunt until I was redirected to this page. I think the article should be moved to the most common name used because it's definately not death grunt. A reference that is currently being used in the article, [1] never even mentions death grunt only growling. Oh and by the way, if you look at the archived talkpage you will see that a number of people have suggested before that the page be moved to death growl.--Leon Sword 04:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support –Pomte 21:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from death grunt to death growl as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 06:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Opeth's Singer...

Can someone please tell me why he keeps getting added to the list? What did he do that was so important?? The Key Vocalist section is supposed to contain only "Vocalists essential to the development of the growl and the bands they represent". Wow, Mikael used clean vocals as well as growls. But what did he contribute to the development of the growl? Nothing. If I were to record an album with me growling and rapping, would that make me "essential to the development of the growl"? I will continue removing his name from the key vocalist section. Isilioth 09:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the article, it once again reads: "Stainthorpe was one of the first to combine growls and clean-singing, a technique which was developed further in large part by Opeth's Mikael Åkerfeldt. In gothic metal, the growls are typically contrasted by female operatic vocals." What makes using both growls and clean vox in a song a "technique"? If I was to growl and vomit, would that also be a special "technique"? Also, what does gothic metal have to do with this article? Uhh...I see no reason for that be mentioned... Isilioth 09:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because if you are going to put in a section talking about clean Vocals and Growls together at all, He is one of the bigger influences. If you have that part at all, Then Include him. Dont want him in it, Get rid of that particular peice. If not, Stop whinging like a little girl and leave him there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.216.150 (talk) 13:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is more important growl-singers than this short list

Why the hell Devin Townsend and Amorphis singer Tomi Koivusaari are not in the list. They are also most important growlers. Justin Broadrick also must be in the list.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.112.15.197 (talk • contribs) 09:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Who is an important growler is a matter of opinion, and the short list is for "key vocalists", not for "people who use growled vocals". By the way, sign your posts. --Leon Sword 22:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glen Benton?

Considering some of the others on the list, I think the frontman of Deicide would fit right in. While he didn't exactly invent the death growl, "Deicide" was released in 1990 and I think is a pretty influential death metal release. Any opinions? Demonofthefall 11:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nergal?

What about Nergal from Behemoth? Isn't he a key death metal vocalist too? Bopash4 09:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)Bopash4[reply]

Nope. Behemoth didn't exist until 1991, and initially they were a black metal band, Nergal's vocals included. Wasn't until 1999's "Satanica" that the band changed their sound to blackened death metal. (Admittedly though, Nergal is imo a damn fine death metal vocalist, probably a favourite of mine.) Demonofthefall 12:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Key Vocalists

The list of key vocalists needs to be cleaned up - the first two entries, Angela Gossow and Quorthon need to be placed in the correct alphabetical order. Also, the wikipedia article on Quorthon states that his full name is Ace Thomas "Quorthon" Forsberg - the entry here should probably also be expanded to show the full name, as with George 'Corpsegrinder' Fischer, and so forth.

Also I'm not sure what the purpose of the list is when most of the people in the list are discussed in the main article itself. Jayaprakash Satyamurthy 07:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioned Inhales, Powerviolence vocals need mentions

I sure hope this doesn't get deleted again. The technique is invaluable to the history grindcore and pornogrind.

I also think it is important that someone mentions the ridiculous vocals that powerviolence bands use. I really don't know what to call them, I've always refered to them as hort vocals. I do think they should be mentioned as a variation because they are infinitely differint from the death growl itself, but are used constantly by powerviolence and powergrind bands. 71.117.98.90 19:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Louis Armstrong

This is the singing voice used by Louis Armstrong, isn't it? He should be mentioned somewhere among all the death metallurgists. Flapdragon 13:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hurt voice

"Growls can be obtained with various voice effects, but the effects are usually used to enhance rather than create, if they are used at all. Voice teachers teach different techniques, but long-term use eventually wears the voice out, so any technique is actually for "less harm", not for harmless vocalization."

I happen to know that the death growl is one of the easiest extreme vocal technique to perform without injuring the voice. I'd recommend somebody give me sitation on that.

Ok, to expand on my earlier post as I was pressed for time. The death growl technique is a rather easy technique to perform. Basically you sing out of your diaphragm and do absolutely nothing with your throat. The only articulator you use would be your tongue which you push to the roof of your mouth. This is why damage when performing this technique (if you are doing it right, look not to Barney Greenway [Napalm Death] for a proper death growl) is minimal, possibly even less than clean singing. Other screams such as metalcore/emo/punk screams and black metal shreiks cause varying amounts of damage, because they use various degrees of the true and false vocal chords to articulate the sound, while no death growler should ever have to be replaced if he takes care of his voice and doesn't shoot up too much coke.

I'm wondering about this, too. I don't have any real information with which to back it up, but I've been using a death growl for years now and honestly haven't noticed any effect on my voice or health in general except for a sore throat for a day or so after long practices or in cold weather. Like the above poster noted, most other musical voices, like black metal rasps or that awful "screaming" seem like they would be much worse. I know it's not submissibile as part of the article, but a friend of mine has done noticeable damage to his voice singing in a scream band for only a year or so. Seems like we could remove it unless anybody has something they can cite otherwise. --Col.clawhammer 07:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article now lists a source that says that supposedly death growls hurt your voice... It also says that death growlers often use vocal fry or false vocal chords. I've always just used my daiphragm and shaped the soundes with my mouth. It works pretty well and I don't get any kind of sore throat and the sound is pretty great. It comes out sounding very low and gutteral. Of course if you are using vocal fry while death growling you are gonna f--- your throat up. But honestly, that's negligable since vocal fry is neither necessary to death growling nor is it recommended. Dunno though. I still think it should be removed, but its not my call. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.2.115 (talk) 05:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The link to polyps doesn't mention them being on vocal chords at all. Perhaps the proper term is vocal nodes? I came to wikipedia today to find info on this, and can't find anything. Also, having just gone to a Tuvan throat singing workshop today, I'd question the whole damage thing. Like most singing, some ways of doing it wear down the voice, and other ways don't.

Growling Vocals - a Brazilian Study

I'm student of Speech Therapy [Logopedie] in Brazil. I'm researching about 'grunten' or growling vocals [death grunt/death growl] used by Death Metal singers. I would like to know if you have some articles about death growl/growling vocals. I'm have difficulties because many terms exist in english to define this type of voice, while that in portuguese the term exists only is "gutural". However, have no studies about this theme in Brazil. You also can indicate scientific sources about my theme? I will be much grateful.

Send me anything. Any help is valid. I'm very grateful for your attention and I hope your answer.

My e-mail: arianalider@yahoo.com.br

More key vocalists

These guys need to be added:

I mean: these all are from the influential/important bands who play or played death metal and own their unique-style. PS. This is definitely NOT my opinion of POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.157.102 (talk) 12:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]