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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 194.187.213.89 (talk) at 23:35, 22 January 2008 (→‎Massive changes: huh?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Thelemic Personalities

It would help the NPOV if we could aseemble a verifiable list of Thelamites. Being an individualist-based philosphy we will have an ecclectic group, but this is the only way to give people a realistic and honest interpretation. The list on the O.T.O. page is a start, but they only seem to list Thelamites that are "accepted" and "respectable." This is a serious disservice to NPOV. People like Ebony Anpu, Timothy Leary, and Robert Anton Wilson should all be included. <3 Captain Barrett 21:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where is Aiwass?

Some information on Aiwass and Crowleys attitude to this entity is needed to put the reception of Liber AL into context? Also the magickal alter ego LAM is needed. Thoughts?--Redblossom 00:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, Redblossom. Aiwass has his own article, which may cover the concerns about that; and the "Of course I wrote them, ink on paper" passage is quoted in the Book of the Law article. Justin Eiler 00:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Notable" authors?

Why has the list of authors who address Thelema been reduced to only those who are considered "notable"? This seems like vandalism especially since not all those remaining listed are "notable" by W'pedia standards. The list of all published authors on the topic of Thelema is not a long one. Why not keep the complete list? --Thiebes 20:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


"Re: Notable authors"

I think someone should add something about Heinlein. Many of his books follow this philosophy to a 't' (Time Enough for Love, I Will Fear No Evil), plus his book 'Job' describes Gnosticism like a textbook.

In considering which, if any, links to delete, please keep in mind Wikipedia's guidelines for what links to avoid:

Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:

  1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
  2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".
  3. Links mainly intended to promote a website.
  4. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. For example, instead of linking to a commercial bookstore site, use the "ISBN" linking format, giving readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources.
  5. Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising.
  6. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content.
  7. Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser.
  8. Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media. If you do link to such material make a note of what application is required.
  9. Links to search engine and aggregated results pages.
  10. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET.
  11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.
  12. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors.
  13. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.

You've got that backwards

Also consider that, in general, organizations which have their own article should not be linked from other articles than their own. Add the organization to the see also section. Remember that Wikipedia is not a directory of links. Each link is supposed to provide, directly on the page linked, additional reliable information about the subject which is not in the Wikipedia article. That is, it is supposed to have & add useful content. A list of links to the splash pages of non-notable organizations does not do that. The notable organizations have their own article and we should encourage people to access that Wikipedia article before going on to access the external site.

Also, sites that are already linked from the notes or references should not be linked again from external links. The spirit of the external links policy is not described in the exclusions you have listed, but rather in the following statement about the restriction on what should be linked from the external linking policy. Only if it passes the policy to be included in the links section should one then consider whether it also has some reason why it must still be excluded. IPSOS (talk) 13:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What should be linked

  1. Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any.
  2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.
  3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
  4. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.

Since there is already a section titled "Thelemic organizations" which as far as I can tell has internal links to every article on a Thelemic organization currently present on Wikpedia, I've reverted the article to remove the direct external links to these organizations. If I have removed any external links which meet the "What should be linked" policy, aren't already linked from the Notes or References, and don't run afoul of the "Links normally to be avoided policy", then by all means add them back.

However, please note that links to social networking sites, forum, blogs, etc. are not permitted. That rules out thelema.nu in my opinion. If it is sufficiently notable (i.e. meets WP:WEB), an article could be written about the site and it could be linked from there. The normal way to provide access to such sites and other sites which don't meet the linking policy is to add a link to the Open Directory Project (DMOZ). This has been done. IPSOS (talk) 14:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

I'll copy this with expansion from Talk:List of Thelemites in case someone deletes the whole list now that I've drawn attention to the page: Now that 999 aka Hanuman Das aka User:Ekajati has gotten himself banned, perhaps we can discuss this again. Does anyone see a reason to put people who did not provably self-identify as Thelemites on this list? Crowley did indeed write an essay purporting to prove that Rabelais foresaw his whole religion. (Our banned friend called this an "admission" when defining Thelema.) But this understandably seems like a minority view among Rabelais scholars (in the sense that I haven't seen any credible scholar make this claim). In fact, it seems strikingly similar to claims that the 'Old Testament' clearly predicts the life of Jesus, and I don't think Crowley could fail to see this. You can't take anything the man says at face value. So how about we limit the name to people who verifiably called themselves Thelemites?

To extend 999's old analogy, Paul in Romans 13:8-10 says that Christians have exactly one commandment to follow on Earth. And plenty of people mentioned this brief Law before the alleged birth of Jesus. Some of them used the equivalent of the word "Christ". Nobody disputes that the word "Christian" comes from them. Yet we wouldn't call them Christians on Wikipedia, because they would not self-identify and indeed might take offense if they knew about it. So why call anyone before Crowley a Thelemite unless we can find them using the name for themselves? We can describe all the history in the article and mention attempts to draft Rabelais into the religion without asserting any disputed claim as fact. Dan 19:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cutting through the Jungle is out of context

This particular misuse of Crowley's writing has finally been explored in a polemic that traces the actual context and use of the paragraph. It is a blatant misrepresentation to continue to tangle words in such a manner. It would be wise to provide either a more appropriate context for the paragraph or remove it as not supporting the contention being made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.57.103.2 (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shri Gurudev Mahendranath?

This person is cited throughout this article and I called his credibility as a source into question, and my "[unreliable source?]" tags were simply deleted with the comment that he was not self-published. This is not sufficient to establish him as a credible source on the subject, however. See Verifiability: Sources for more information. We should remove these citations and any claims dependent on them unless the source can be demonstrated as reliable. --Thiebes (talk) 16:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So far as I know they are not reliable. There seems to be no references to this person in Crowley's diaries at the times he says that he interacted with AC. It looks, much like the Amado Crowley scam, that this person consulted the published diaries and inserted himself into Crowley's life at places he did not think could be checked. Al Billings and the late Tim Maroney did a great amount of research on the beginnings of the Nath movement and found most of the claims to be either completely unsupported or fabrications. Stealthepiscopalian (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Stealthepiscopalian[reply]

Hmm, looks like yet another attempt by a couple of OTO members to promote the opinions of their "King". How reliable is that? It certainly doesn't maintain NPOV to take out other's views of the matter. 86.67.207.41 (talk) 04:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does this have to do with a NPV? There is no independent data in the Crowley diaries or anywhere else to support Dadja's claims to have known Crowley and a number of contradictions with known facts. That makes him unreliable as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealthepiscopalian (talk • contribs) 22:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now I'm not sure what you're talking about. Other than his claims to have met Crowley, all the other information from this source has been corroborated by multiple independent sources. As for WP:NPOV, it say that no significant viewpoints should be excluded.... So... Since the claims to have met Crowley have been removed, what other problem do you have with the source, since it is in line with multiple other sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.171.69 (talk) 02:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Aiwass seems like a better place for this dispute. Dan (talk) 00:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definition: comments?

Judging by the talk pages, we've reached consensus. Maybe respectable Rabelais scholars use the word "Thelema" to mean a real-world philosophy that comes from Rabelais, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence. It really seems like not one person unambiguously called themselves a Thelemite or professed Thelema by name before April 1904. And while I may have forgotten someone, I don't recall any self-described Thelemites who are not secretly User:Ekajati claiming they follow Rabelais with no influence from Uncle Al or Liber AL. (The reference that seems closest says, "Rabelais is a convenient name to show that Crowley borrowed his ideas and was just one thread in much wider fabric.") So I'll change the article to reflect this as soon as I have time.

I'll try to keep the claims of Mahendranath (and the historical material of course) unless somebody can give a better reason to remove them. (That's why it may take me time.) I also agree that we should talk about the essay Antecedents of Thelema. Except we should mention and take into account the parts that make it all sound like deliberate parody of Christians talking about "the Old Testament":

Was the mighty spirit of Alcofribas Nasier aware of the prophetic fire of his immortal book? He has fortunately left us in no doubt upon this point; for he did not content himself with having created in parable that Abbey of Thelema which his eager gaze foresaw from the black abyss of those Ages not yet thrilled by the Morning Star of the Renaissance, and dimly heralded by the Wolf's Tail of the Reformation. He proceeded to envelop himself in the mist of oracular speech, to fulminate his light through dark sayings, to clothe the naked beauty of his Time-piercing thought in the pontifical vestments of prophecy. The reader of today plunged from the limped waters of his allegory into the glooming gulfs of sibylline and subterranean song, is startled indeed when, after repeated efforts to penetrate the mystery of his versicles, he perceives the adumbration of dim forms--and recognizes them, with something of terror, for the images of the events of this very generation of mankind! (...) A great flame will spring up, he says, and put an end to this flood. What clearer reference could be desired to the Aeon of Horus?

Any non-sock-puppet objections? Dan (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Done. See what you think of that quote's presentation. I found a source for one blindingly obvious point. Dan (talk) 07:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thst citation is not usable. It's from a forum or other discussion site. Not a reliable source. 81.9.61.227 (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And so you revert the whole article? I assume you mean the forum quote pointing out the obvious, which I included as a courtesy. It is indeed reliable as an example of a human reaction, which is how I used it. You know I'll get checkuser to compare you with another Starwood Festival editor, right? Dan (talk) 17:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I tried to find someone calling themselves a Thelemite and claiming to follow Rabelais "instead" of Crowley (see the [citation needed] in the Contemporary section of the article). I found people citing this article, and in one case attacking it as a badly written misrepresentation of Thelema. Dan (talk) 18:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that it is necessary to show that there is anyone claiming to follow Rabelais rather than Crowley. It is sufficient to show that people make the distinction and discuss a difference between Crowleyan and pre-Crowleyan Thelema and that some reject Crowley and thus fall back on the earlier root, which are Rabelaisian. It seems that Aleisterian Thelema is the current term in use rather than Crowleyan Thelema... see the first three links below. The rest refer to Rabelaisian Thelema. 80.222.124.181 (talk) 20:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Massive changes

There are serious problems with the massive changes implemented by Dan. They make Crowleyan Thelema primary. This article as it was is very balanced and the intro given a chronological introduction to the subject. It is much more difficult to understand the history and development of Thelema by starting with Crowley. Crowley's use of the word was clearly derivative from earlier sources. No one but fundamentalist Crowleyites (or to use a more recent term Aleisterians) dispute this. While I am sure improvements could be made to the article, a massive restructuring and reordering is a step backwards. 84.147.98.77 (talk) 20:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We've been over this. Your links give responses to a speech that from what I can tell, refers to the previous form of the Wikipedia article, making this them an exercise in circular reasoning. Dan (talk) 21:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I said this before, but it bears repeating. The source that seems closest to your position actually says that Crowley took ideas from many other people. The current version of the article starts, "Thelema is a system put together or openly revealed by Aleister Crowley," emphasis added. Dan (talk) 21:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are ignoring the fact that the term and the usage, including the term "Thelemite", preexisted Crowley. Presentation of this should be chronological. A small and vocal group, the OTO, falsely claims that Crowley originated the philosophy and the term. He did not. He did create a system of practice under the umbrella of the pre-existing term Thelema. That's it. Many of those links predate the speech and some predate the Wikipedia entry. You must not have looked at them very closed. And no "we" have not discussed this at all. 80.222.124.181 (talk) 21:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See my pre-response at Talk:Thelema#Definition:_comments.3F Dan (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That comment is pretty much content free, Dan. It is not a discussion and there you did not seem to garner support from other editors, which is not surprising since you did not go into any detail with respect to exactly what you intended. 85.5.22.108 (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I see you are now misrepresenting Sabazius' comment over at RFPP. His comment had absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia and does not mention Wikipedia. It is an example of the ongoing differences of opinion between the two type of Thelemite described in the article. What in the world would make you think otherwise? 194.187.213.89 (talk) 23:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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