Talk:Terek Cossacks

There is some heavy bulls*it in this article. Mate either post some sources in support of "mass massacre" claims, or delete them. We've never seen mass graves of massacred ethnic russians found in Chechnya, but graves of killed civilian Chechens were found so far, ruthlessly slaughtered during the "anti-terrorist" operation (over 150,000 people, yeah talk about genocide). This Article is PROPAGANDA, telling just one, extremely biased, side of the story.

Unfortunately this "propaganda" is truth. Here is a simple census figure: 1989 Russians made up a quarter of Checheno-Ingushetia (over 300 thousand). Mostly in Grozny and in the northern Terek regions, by 1994 this figure dropped to under 50 thousand. In 2002 census the amount of Chechens rose to 1 million (from 730 thousand in 1989). Note that the exodus took place prior to the First Chechen War. --Kuban Cossack 09:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Salam Kuban Kazak, i agree with you on census figures(apart from 2002 figures, which are admit it my friend, extremely controversial and politically affected), relating to the drop in population of Cossacks in Chechnya. But you cannot just explain that by "ruthless massacres". If it is a fact, please facts from independend sources. 250,000 killed or expelled, is a massive figure, and if that really was a case, it would not have gone unnoticed. The question is...if ten's of thousands of people were killed, how come no mass graves found so far (The graves of murdered Chechens were)? And how come, according to human rights organisations over 30,000 ethnic russians died as the result of russian army bombardments of Grozny during the assault, if they all killed and expelled by Chechen Ressistance? Kuban_cossack lying, even about your enemies, does not do any honour to you. Salam.

Census of 2002 was contoversial? Not really all demographic organisations recognised it. Chechen resistance? Well if actions such as Budyonovsk, Kizlyar, Moscow Theatre seige and the slaughter of children in Beslan is resistance... shame on you!

Yes 250 thousand is a massive number, yet nonetheless it is the case. Human rights organisations like whom? Please source this. 250 thousand is a mass number, and I would use the term genocide, as recognised by the Russian Ministry of Culture [1] as well as numerous material from the FSB, news releases and so on [2]. As for Chechen graves? We are talking about Russians NOT Chechens, raise this question somewhere else. Last, but not least, I personally remember the early 1990s and the amount of refugees from Northern Chechnya shocked us then. I was too young to fight in the first Chechen war, but I volunteered to liberate Chechnya in the second Chechen war from the Ichkerian scum.

PS. Salam? In Russia we say Privet, so Privet.--Kuban Cossack 19:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

<<<<<<< First of all, lets make certain rules. Whenver any of us makes any claim, lets use support them by independent sources.

1.Concerning the Census(here are just few examples)

(1).First of All the wikipedia article here(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya) states that the numbers are disputed

(2).Jamestown Foundation

...after the October 2002 census: Its figure of 1,088,000 clearly over counts the current residents of the republic, but it may approximate the total number of Chechen nationals in all of the Russian Federation. Census procedures permitted each person to record all his or her family members. The actual number of Chechen residents is less than 650,000 and perhaps closer to 550,000. Hence, the current electorate is probably between 250,000 and 350,000. The voter lists, however, included 540,000 people.

(3). Prague Watchdog

“The poll suggests that instead of falling during the war years, the population grew by almost 150 percent. In view of the great losses among civilians and massive migration of Chechens to other regions and republics of Russia, a natural rise of this scale is impossible.”

Now give me the names of human rights organizations, WITH SOURCES, which acknowledged the census in Chechnya in 2002, as trustworthy and reliable.

2. FSB documents and cossack website, cannot be under any circumstance classified as independent sources, and are, by definition, biased. Here is the Guidance for you, concerning the reliable sourcing, and if you don't support your statements and claims in the article in accordance with the Wiki rules, it might be removed.

3.Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).

(1) Now prove that mass killing of ethnic russians/cossacks took place, making sure that you also prove that chechens were not dying, because only in this case we can say, that there was descriminate killing taking place on ethnic basis, but not difficult criminal situation within the republic, from which the population suffered as a whole, regardless of nationality.

(2) Mass immigration of ethnic cossacks, does not mean genocide took place. Not only cossacks, but Chechens were immigrating and fleeing their country too. Also Ethnic russians were immigrating from ALL former soviet republics, which became de-facto independent. For example:

In the new states of the former Soviet Union, much of the increase in ethnic homogeneity has been due to the return migration of more than 10 percent of the Russian diaspora population from the non-Russian states. The rate of return among the states varies considerably, ranging from 50 percent in the three Transcaucasus states and Tajikistan to barely 1 percent from Ukraine and Belarus

50% immigration...People were simply returning to their homeland and that does not mean that there was genocide of russian population in those countries too, does it?

Lastly, no offence, but when fighting in Chechnya you were not liberating anyone, but trying to enslave, genocide and get control for your "motherland" (which can hardly be defined as such, since throughout its history it used cossacks as pawns, sadly that's truth) over peoples that you seem to hate so much, while still copying their national dress - Cherkesskas and Beshmets, their traditions, and while populating their historical land, to which you have the same rights as Chechens living in Moscow for its land.

I sincerely advice you to get a hold of Tolstoy's amazing novels (if you have not read them already) "Cossacks", "Haji-Murat", and Lermontovs "Heroes of Our Time". "

Еще не родился такой человек, Чтоб горы уставить гробами, Чтоб сдвинуть Казбек дерзновенной рукой, Чтоб сделать ЧЕЧЕНЦЕВ рабами!"

If you want to further discuss any of these topics with me, let me know, i will be glad to talk to reach a consensus with you.

Take Care, and peace be upon you and your family. Salam. Almansur.shishan >>>>>>>

People returning to their land? Terek Cossacks have been living there since the 16th century! They built the city of Grozny in the first place! Beshmets and Cherkesskas wrong again. Cherkesska have a read. Cossacks as pawns? Well we fight for our land and safeguard it against all invasions. That has been our life throughout history. In return we never payed taxes or were obliged anything apart from our service to the Empire.

Genocide on Chechens? They are responsible for starting the bloody conflict, for invading Dagestan in 1999. We simply took the chance and won back a territory that is de jure Russian. And nobody in Moscow is persecuting Chechens, quite the opposite, it is rediculous how many crimes they get away with compared to how the same authorities treat ordinary Russians.--Kuban Cossack 15:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Kuban_Cossack with all due respect....Cossacks are russian people, ethnic slavs, none of which national dress is anywhere close to the one, adopted by caucasian cossacks, which were copied from the Caucasian Mountaneers. Because before you forefathers settled in Caucasus, they did not wear this kind of clothes. True, Russians built the Grozny... but after massacring the villages on its site... Ermolov's tactics.

Secondly, my friend, i know that cossacks have been living, and quite peacefully, as friends, with chechens and other mountaneers, since 16th century and even earlier, till the point when imperial goverment decided to clash us. But Chechens are the aborigens of this land, known to be populating both terek lands and mountain areas since BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#History, even before the slavs migrated to europe.

Well that's how the second war began. But how about the first? My friend lets be true and honest to each other. Chechens used their right to declare freedom, but Russian armed forces intervened, trying to subdue the region.

Myself i've lived in Moscow for some time, and i remember myself the kind of descrimination i've been facing in my everyday life.

Peace be upon you, and your family.Almansur.shishan 13:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The end of multi-ethnic Chechnya:

In another significant development, Chechnya has also lost almost all of its former non-Chechen population. At the end of the Soviet period, several hundreds of thousands of Chechnya's residents belonged to different ethnic groups - most of them Russians, but also Armenians, Ingush, Georgians, Ukrainians and many more, concentrated in the vibrant urban center of Grozny. This multi-ethnic Grozny has long ceased to exist. Under the separatist leadership of the pre-war period, many non-ethnic Chechens found themselves threatened by criminal elements and faced with an indifferent government that showed no intention to protect them. Many of the educated elites also lost their positions in government, industry and academia to locals connected with those in power. The ensuing exodus of some 300,000 non-ethnic Chechens represents the tragic end of a once peacefully diverse community and a dramatic brain-drain that continues to impede Chechnya's efforts to rebuild. The often negative experiences of Chechnya's former residents, exploited by Russian media and politicians, also became a major factor for anti-Chechen sentiment in Russia.

It's from here.

The Chechnya Advocacy Network is a grass-roots not-for-profit organization with a horizontal structure and network member groups all over the US and Europe (see Our Structure). We are independent, non-partisan and non-denominational.

So it's clearly not a pro-Russian source. Alaexis 16:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Under the separatist leadership of the pre-war period, many non-ethnic Chechens found themselves threatened by criminal elements and faced with an indifferent government that showed no intention to protect them

Alaexis, the source you've posted is reliable, and it just reinforces all my points. I totally agree with what you've posted. And this is what i was saying from the beginning. Non-ethnic population of Chechnya did face pressure, but from criminals, and the exodus, mentioned in the source above cannot be described as ruthless "massacres" Almansur.shishan 18:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

That's why I've added a fact tag to the word massacres. Alaexis 19:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Aah) ok then) Thanks. Almansur.shishan 22:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

POV

Including statements such as "ruthlessly massacred" without a reliable source backing it is a violation of WP:NPOV. Both nationalities (Russians and Chechens) experienced population loss because of the war. Russians had the support of powerful Russian federal army and portraying them as helpless victims is twisting the facts. Aminullah 07:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This took place in 1990-94 before the first Chechen war, it was a systematic attack on the Russian minority. In 1989 the Russians made up nearly a third of the population, 300 thousand people. In 2002 there was only 40 thousand or so left. At the same time the Chechen population increased. It is called genocide. --Kuban Cossack 09:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not massacre, but Ethnic Cleansing !

First, the facts: 1- The Soviet Chechen Republic included not only Chehcen historical territories, south from Terek River (Right Bank) but also Cossak Host territories, north from the Terek River (Left Bank). As a matter of fact, in order to dillute the Chechen population, Stalin included the Left Bank Area into the Soviet Autonomous Republic of the Chechen and Ingush. 2- During the Soviet regime, many Russians settled in Checheya, especially in Grozny and other Right Bank areas. But also many Chechen settled in the Left Bank, among Russians. In 1989, the Russian population of the Republic was 23%. 3- During the regime of Djohar Dudaev, the criminal gangs forced most of the 200.000 Russians to flee. 4- More Russians had to flee during the two wars in Chechenya. 5- Today, the Russians are less than 4% of the population of Chechenya.

Responsibilities: 1- The regime of Dudaev is the principal responsible, because the majority of the Russians left Chechenya during his mandate. As legal authority, HE had the task to stop the criminal gangs and protect the minority population. Everywhere in this World, the Governments are having the responsibility to protect the minorities in the face of harrasment, ethnic cleansing and other kind of violence. And Dudaev regime failed to protect the Russians. 2- In ALL the countries affected by ethnic cleansings of the minorities (Croatia, Israel, Kosovo, Bosnia, Algeria, etc) the actions of ethnic cleansing where done by different criminal gangs, paramilitary, nationalists, islamists, etc BUT with the approval and with the non-interventionist policy of the official regimes. Of course, the REAL criminal is the regime who did not sent the army to stop the gangs. In Chechnya's case, the Dudaev regime did NOT sent the army to protect the Russians, thereby Dudaev and his regime are clearly guilty of ethnic cleansing. 3- In the Baltic States, Moldova, etc., the local regimes protected the minorities from ethnic cleansing and assumed full responsibility for them protection. Some Russians left, but because of economic reasons, not because of widespread persecution and violence, like in Chechenya.

Solutions: 1- The Russian refugees must receive reparations from the Checehn government and their property must be fully restored. 2- The gang members must pay for the ethnic cleansing activities and should be put to trial.