Talk:Hittites

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WPTR template

Listen, we went over this before: WPTR template is for geo purposes. Pyramids weren't built by Arabs either, but saying that they shouldn't have the WP Egypt tag or that Native American articles shouldn't have a WPUSA and related tags is also simply weird. Nobody claimed that the Hittites were Turkish or anything, but obviously for geo reasons it falls under the WPTR scope, right?? Also please watch for WP:3RR, come on it is a beautiful Saturday, what is all this fuss? Baristarim 12:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about the 3RR, this has nothing to do with WikiProject Turkey if your a good faith editor you would take it off, if your serous go add your project to Armenia, Turkey, Assyria, Kurdistan, Azerbaijan, Urartu, Greece, if you don't take it off I will myself and WPAM to Turkey, since Armenians owned half of Turkey way before the Turkish migration. So stop making excuses for "geo" purposes. The project has no business here, again if you do not remove this I will act on behalf of your edits on Turkish articles. Artaxiad 13:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added it to Kurdistan, just like WPSyria had added it before. Stop making point comparisons and take it easy please.. WPAM tags are already present in many articles of Turkish cities.. I am sorry, but if this continues I will be obliged to take this to AN/I - I don't understand what the whole fuss is really.. Baristarim 13:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the point is there is no point of adding the project, no relevance what so ever, if this is about Geo the Ottoman empire covers many present day countries go add your project there too. Also WP:POINT I have not done anything yet. Artaxiad 13:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Waiting for a response. Artaxiad 18:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It is quite relevant, the project is underhanded, so this might not be given high priority now, but it will improved as soon as possible. If you don not want to contribute, just do not contribute. It is part of the project. deniz^T_C 21:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay let it stay for Geo purposes. Artaxiad 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Create a 'History of Anatolia' wikiproject?

This would be a whole lot easier. I have noticed that Thales has also been added to Wikiproject Turkey, I mean come on guys, thats absurd.--NeroDrusus 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You can create that wikiproject, but this article will still be part of the WP Turkey. An article can be part of multiple projects. If you don't want to create that wikiproject, you can join WP Turkey and help us improve this article, that might be your task if you want to. In that case, we can immediately increase the importance. deniz^T_C 23:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If I were to put the Izmir article as part of wikiproject Greece and start adding information about the architecture and history of the old Greek houses and schools and libraries of the cities - as well as the culture of the Greeks who lived there, you would complain about it, that is the reason I am complaining.--NeroDrusus 23:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The thing is İzmir is separated into two parts, İzmir and Smyrna, so it is not a parallel example. Also we (or you) are not going to write that Hittite's were ethnic Turks, or something like that. In any case, you can add correct information about houses and etc, as long it is notable enough. 00:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, any particular section of the Izmir article I should add it to?--NeroDrusus 13:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, I haven't been involved with that article. It might be a good idea to prepare the text that you want to add and then write it on the talk page first, and ask for suggestions there. Please see this policy page: WP:Point, it might be relevant. You stopped being User:EOKA-Assassin, please let it not be just a change in name. deniz^T_C 03:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

My brother has taken the book in question so I'll have to get him to give it back before I can write up something about it, I'll do so in the next month.--NeroDrusus 22:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

How was "hittite" sounded in the time of their life? /hitet/? /hitit/? because there was no long "i" as in find then.TedHuntington 20:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

vney heth-sons of heth (in Hebrew). hithi-hitites (in Hebrew). remember that English always changes how words in the thanach are spelled to suit English, rather than preserve the original sound. (I spelled all Hebrew words here the according to Yemenite pronunciation, because I think it most accurately preserves the original Hebrew pronunciation). -Shyisc 15:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

insufficient citations & references

Am intending to put the

template here due to it's single reference. Alcmaeonid 20:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

"The Hittites passed much knowledge and lore from the Ancient Near East to the newly arrived Greeks in Europe."

To this day, Greece is not European, only officially. And as for Europe.....Europe didn't even officially EXIST until 1993 AD. I am aware that it is very convenient to circulate the idea of Europe actually existing. Until you have lived in the places you claim are European, it is also extremely stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.81.209 (talk) 14:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Ri-i-ight... But at any rate, the sentence you quoted is a pretty bald and unsourced assertion that somehow needs to be tamed, as it stands now! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Akkadogram

What is an Akkadogram? --Thus Spake Anittas 13:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

A word written in the Akkadian language inserted into a text of some other language. In this case, Akkadian words inserted into Hittite texts. They are easily identifiable as such within Hittite texts and follow the grammatical rules for Akkadian rather than Hittite. It is therefore understood that the Hittite scribe, while familiar with Akkadian, would have "translated" the Akkadogram into Hittite when reading it. Publik 20:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Concerning recommended improvements to Introduction made on 12/21/07

1) The Hittites did not come from Kaneŝ. They never claimed to come from Kaneš. The famous Anitta text clearly indicates that they did NOT come from Kaneš. If anywhere, they came from Kuššar, a dynasty that conquered Kaneš. Ḥattušili I called himself a king of Kuššar, not Kaneš. Scholars do not speak of the Hittites coming from Kaneš, they do not speak of them coming from any particular city, rather that the Hittite language diverged from the other proto-Anatolian languages in central Anatolia, and that the proto-Anatolians themselves entered Anatolia from somewhere north of the Black Sea.

2) Given that it is inappropriate to talk about the Hittites coming from a single city, the fact that the Hittites called their language after the city of Kaneš can only be used to justify a high concentration of Hittite speakers there. Ḥattuša itself may have had a lower concentration of Hittite speakers prior to its resettlement, but that does not justify postulating that the Hittites came from a city that was conquered by Kuššar, the self-same city which future Hittite kings connected themselves with. Given the importance of Kaneš for the economy during the Assyrian trading period, it is hardly surprising that the Hitites may have named their language after that city, but it does not mean that they originated there.

3) The fact that city names first appear in Hittite texts does not mean that the Hittites created those names. The very name of their capital, Ḥattuša, predates the Hittites. Unless you can demonstrate a definite Hittite etymology for a city name, then you cannot assume that it is Hittite.

4) I'm not sure what your objection is to the rearrangement of the last paragraph. The Hittites are clearly better known for their use of iron than they are for any skill in chariot building. And the Hittites were a Bronze Age civilization, not an Iron Age civilization.

Okay, thanks for explaining those edits, I see you have put a lot of thought behind them. They had initially looked to me like they were more than just simple 'tweaks' so I had reverted, but if they are okay with the other editors, I will defer to your reasoning above. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No worries. Thanks! Publik (talk) 02:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments

It's mentioned on the main article page and in 20th century research that the Hittites spoke an Indo-Europeon language. This cannot be since this black race predates Europeon intellectualism by several centuries. Neither David, Solomon nor any other Judaen king was able to subdue them. It would be more proper to say that the Indo-Europeons spoke a form of Hittite. Tom 01/14/08

Thanks, Tom... Now if you can find one published source that takes this view anywhere in the history of human literature, we can talk about referencing it. Otherwise please read WP:OR. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

"Legacy of the Hittites" section

A section referring to the legacy of the Hittites could be written. This could be moved from the introduction(where I don't think it fits) to the new section: "Many of the modern city names in Turkey are first recorded under their Hittite names, such as Sinop and Adana, reflecting the contiguity of modern Anatolia with its ancient past." Other parts of the article could belong to the "legacy" section as well. Btw, I also remember reading somewhere about conical hats the Hittites wore that are still occasionaly used in Turkey. I can't recall the source, though, so someone else has to help. What do you think? Dankuwaz (talk) 03:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Hittite Maps

1. There's nothing wrong with having 2 maps on this article, especially if they show different but relevant information.

2. The current map [Image:Hittite_Empire.png] is good, it shows the Empire in 2 stages, early and late. And it's zoomed in for a close-up view of the Empire.

3.The map Dbachmann keeps reverting [Image:Hittites_1300bc.jpg] shows the Empire at its height, along with its neighbors and rivals. The Hittite Empire is highlighted and easily visible, and the map gives readers valuable information about the world of the Hittites. Thomas Lessman (talk) 15:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that your map (a) shows all of Europe and half of Africa besides the entire Middle East. What is the point of that? The other point is that it is executed very carelessly. The shape of the purple blob indicating the Hittite Empire appears to imitate Hittite_Empire.png directly. If we zoom in on the Hittite Empire, we'll just get a lower quality variant of the map we already have.

Talessman, your map project is cool, but it belongs on http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/ , not scattered across random Wikipedia articles. I appreciate you are still learning how to draw maps, and I can see some progress. If you should summon the skills and patience to create a map similar to those showcased on your talkpage for your inspiration (commons:User:MapMaster & Cie.), I will personally thank you and shower you with barnstars. Until then, may I suggest you consider acting less pushy. dab (𒁳) 15:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, gents, the given depictions of the Hittite empire "at its peak" stinks in both maps. When you consider that we know the Hittites ruled over Troy in the far northwest, Caria in the far southwest, at least part of Pamphylia and that mess of Lukka (Lycia) lands in the south, Pala in the north, Mitanni in the southeast; the "long nose" map of the Hittite empire that has become so popular on the web these days is ridiculous. The question of Masa and Karkisa may leave room for some gaps in their coverage of Anatolia, but not much. Publik (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Publik, do you have any source information to back up that information? I can correct the map if there is a good reference to base that change on. But I've never heard that the Hittites ruled Troy, which was (I believe) at the height of it's own power, just before the war with the Greeks. Thomas Lessman (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hittite rule over Troy and Troad: Derived from the connection of Hittite "Taruisa" with Troy and, especially, Hittite "Wilusa" with "Ilion". While there were decades of dispute on this issue, it's basically been resolved now in favor of the connection. This stems particulary from the discovery of a text join that puts "Wilusa" near "Lazba" (i.e. Lesbos). See Bryce, Trevor, The Kingdom of the Hittites (1998) 394-395, who briefly discusses the dispute. This means that both the vassal treaty between Muwatalli II and Alexandu of Wilusa (which presupposes Hittite rule during the reign of Mursili II), as well as the Manapa-Tarhunta treaty, demonstrate Hittite rule over Troy.

Hittite rule over Caria and Lycia: There was no place called "Caria" in the Hittite era, unless you accept Karkisa as Caria (an issue which has not yet been settled, but I agree with Garstang and Gurney (p. 108) that it is in the northwest). But the Annals of Mursili II and the Tawagalawa Letter in particular make Hittite rule over Caria certain, and numerous sources point to Hittite rule over the Lukka Lands. See Garstang and Gurney, The Geography of the Hittite Empire (1959) pp. 77-82. (And, of course, there is the appearance of the Lukka among the Hittite forces at Kadesh.)

Pamphylia: There is no reference to "Pamphylia" in Hittite records, but the Bronze Tablet mentions "Parha" (Perge) and the Kastaraya River (Classical Kestros River, modern Aksu Çayı). I don't have a published reference for that, but I'm sure I can dig it up if required. Pamphylia was probably part of the general morass of the Lukka Lands, although this is uncertain.

Northwest (Pala and Masa): Pala being to the northwest of the Hittite core land is so commonly accepted that I don't even know who proposed it. That Pala reached the Black Sea seems to be supported by modern place names such as "Bolu", and the classical territory of "Blaene". As a reference, you can see it placed on a map in this region in Trevor's book, map 3. Masa is tricky because of it's association with Karkisa. So here you start to get into opinion. I accept the position that "Masa" is "Mysia" (see Trevor's map 3 again) and, along with Karkisa, fills in the gap between the far northwest and Pala.

Mitanni: I don't think there's any need to discuss this one? Other than to say that it should extend beyond Tell Fecheriye, the unproven but universally accepted location of Wassukanni, one-time capital of that kingdom. Also the fact that it controlled Assyria until the Hittites conquered Mitanni. This means that the map shown in this article does not extend far enough to the east.

Another problem is that the map shows the Hittite southern border at Kadesh. But, at its peak, it extended to include Apa/Upi, captured by Suppiluliuma I. This would mean the border must be stretched at least far enough south to include Damascus (Hittite Dimasku).

And another problem with this map is what, I guess(???) is meant to be the core territory in the darker red. If that is supposed to be the core territory, then it is pointing southeast when it should be pointing southwest towards the Lower Land instead.

Not every point above is referenced to a scholarly article. Some are derived from the texts themselves.

Publik (talk) 19:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Physical Appearance of the Hittites

I removed that section because I couldn't see the relevance of it, and the only way to bring up the subject is to make an edit change. So I put the question here: What is the relevance of stating that the Egyptians "always" painted them yellow (and then point out an exception)? What does it add to the article?

Is the intent to identify a single Hittite ethnicity? Garstang discussed this way back in 1910 ("The Land of the Hittites" pp. 317-319), with images (Particularly Plate LXXXIII and LXXXIV). He pointed out that, as steriotypical as Egyptian art is, they nonetheless seemed to recognize two different ethnicities for the Hittites, but that it "did not distinguish between them with sufficient clearness or consistency for our purpose." (p. 318), and concludes the "population of the Hittite lands (was) no less mixed than that of Turkey in Asia to-day" (p. 319). There are also many studies of Anatolian bones in an attempt to identify the various ethnicities, based particularly on cranial shapes. It has elsewhere been noted that Hittite art itself seems to depict multiple ethnicities. Publik (talk) 15:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Quote: "I removed that section because I couldn't see the relevance of it..." Its important to know what they looked like. If Garstang pointed out that there are 2 distinct types of Hittites you may add that, although it is important to show what these ancient peoples looked like. - IndoHistorian