Talk:Ronald Reagan

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Cold War sentence

A sentence in the Cold War section, presumably added by User:Halgin, stated the following: "The Cold War that terrorized the world for four decades had wound down to barely a whimper by the end of Ronald Reagan's presidency."

I have issues with that:

• "terrorized the world" - since there weren't little men that ran around from house to house and terrorized women and children, I see the wording of this as slightly blown out of context.
• "barely a whimper" - not specific

I reworded it to take care of the issues: "The Cold War was a major world event for four decades, but the confrontation and depleted relations between the two superpowers decreased dramatically by the end of Reagan's presidency."

• "Terrorized the world" was poor contextual wording and is now shown to be what it really was: an event.
• "Wound down to barely a whimper", a not-specific metaphor is now an actual description

On top of that, the first version was copied directly from the source ([1]) and it was not in correct citation format. The section starts with this sentence and then goes into "The significance of Reagan's role in ending the Cold War has spurred contentious and opinionated debate" which is the subject and purpose of the section. Basically it's saying that relations improved after Reagan's presidency but the impact he had on the end of the war is debatable. I see the second revision as the better one. Happyme22 (talk) 06:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I see the second version fraught with some pov that doesn't effectively communicate the citations noted. The whole 'peace through strength' thing, for example. Aside from sounding very, very Orwellian, in the citation the only ones who refer to these strategies as such are "Reagan admirers". In fact, the author of the reference states that a 'firm but fair' was a better assessment of Reagan's strategy. I think that the shading of this article can go one way and then the other. I know folks have their own opinions, but we really need to aim for objective neutrality. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 07:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

With that in mind, i made some tweaks to the areas in question. I will probably make more. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 07:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Arcayne, again I really like you as an editor and you have helped to make this page more NPOV, but now it seems as if every one of Reagan's positive phrases ("peace through strength", "Reagan Revolution") has to be labeled as coming from his supporters. Even CNN reffered to Reagan's tenure as the Reagan Revolution, and says he advocated peace through strength. Take the very definition of peace through strength from that article: ""Peace through Strength" is the doctrine that military strength is a primary or necessary component of peace." What's wrong with that? That is exactly what Ronald Reagan communicated and advocated. Saying that it is better described as "firm but fair" is your own POV; saying that it's another phrase used to describe peace through strength is okay.

Secondly, your edits to the Cold War section were not very helpful. They completely distorted what the sentence said. It went from saying "that Reagan did have a role in ending it, but the role is primarily opinion" (paraphrased) to "Reagan's role is still being debated." Those are two different ideas and the the second one was not collectively agreed upon.

Bottom line: I see them both as being POV edits. Not that I haven't had my share of those, but these definitely are. Happyme22 (talk) 18:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I think its fairly clear that the over the top positive appellations were given by his supporters, just as those negative nicknames ("The Great Sleeper", "Teflon president", etc) were given by people who didn't approve of the Reagan Administration's actions. We aren't here to be positive or negative, but objectively neutral. Did Reagan have supporters and detractors? Yep. Do we record what both sides said? Yep. Do we give any more play o one side or the other? Nope.

I am not arguing that 'Peace Through Strength' is not a military doctrine. I am stating that Reagan's policies were defined in the cited reference as being better described as "Firm but Fair", as Peace Through Strength was not a precisely followed policy by the Reagan Administration.

As for the Cold War re-edits, Reagan's role in ending it is debated. This is the previous version:

"That Reagan had some role in accelerating the downfall of the Soviet Union is collectively agreed, but the extent of this role is undefineable, and therefore primarily opinion"

and this is the edit I offered:

"Reagan's role in contributing to the downfall of the Soviet Union is still debated, and therefore primarily opinion."

My edit doesn't side with the opinion that Reagan accelerated the downfall of the Soviet Union, and it removes the contention that it is collectively agreed (as it is almost certainly not). The last part of the statement about the role being 'indefinable and therefore opinion' negates any counter-argument to the extend to Reagan's role, and subtly rendering any consideration of such as 'opinion.' My edit addresses that both sides of the argument have valid points, and we are going to stay the hell out of the fray, and we are certainly not going to take sides or render an opinion as to their validity. I think that my edit places itself firmly in the objectively neutral viewpoint. They are POv edits - NPOV edits. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute - you're telling me that Ronald Reagan had absolutley no role in the end of the cold war/fall of the USSR? I know that his role is being debated, but as the previous version stated, it is collectively agreed upon that he had some role. So including that he had some role but that it is still being debated is the more NPOV way to go, because it encompasses both sides. That's what was cited, that's what was agreed upon, and that's what needs to go in.

As for peace through strength: which article is it that you keep reffering to? I thought it was this one, but there is no mention of "firm but fair" in there. Happyme22 (talk) 19:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Look at the sentence again, Hap: there is an enormous difference between contributing and accelerating when used in this context. I am not saying that he had no role; as the opinions on either side of the contribution article are fairly well-matched in both credibility and citation, its better to not take any one viewpoint and run with it. For all we know, the USSR was doomed after the Cuban Missile Crisis. That Reagan had a role in the ending of the Cold War is obvious - however, we aren't going to tout Reagan's role any more than Ike, Kennedy, Nixon or Carter, because that isn't npov.

The citation is #186 in the list.I think I properly linked it to the statements. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, well you make a good point. There is a difference between contributing and accelerating, so how about this: "That Reagan had some role in contributing to the downfall of the Soviet Union is collectively agreed, but the extent of this role is continuously debated and therefore primarily opinion".

As for peace through strength: I really like that article you cited, and Mr. Knopf does make good points, including the "firm but fair" contention. After reading through how the author defines firm but fair, I really have no problems including it. I just don;t think that we should say that firm but fair is the more apt description of the policies, because then we are making our own inferments or using those of a single author. Finally, in the legacy: cold war section, instead of labeling the policies as "firm but fair" we can simply say "It was Reagan's defense policies....."

BTW, I don't know if you heard about poor Nancy... --Happyme22 (talk) 00:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

the end of your new sentence "and therefore primarily opinion" is unnecessary and has, in my mind, a negative connotation towards the opinion in question. it would be better off with just [a slightly modified version of] the first clause of your sentence "Reagan's role in contributing to the downfall of the Soviet Union is still a matter of debate." i respect the work the two have you have done on this article and will in this instance defer to your judgments on whether or not to change this since it is more stylistic than substantive SJMNY (talk) 02:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Hap first: I can agree with that, and I appreciate you considering my view. I think that SJMY has a pretty good compromise, and I thing that your sidestepping the strength thing with Reagan;s defense policies is a good step in the right direction.

And no, I hadn't heard. This is the second time that something like that has happened (while in the UK). Maybe her blood pressure meds are off a bit (yes, that's blatant OR). I hope she feels better.

SJMY - thanks for contributing I think yiour suggested alternative is an excellent one. As well as rendering a negative connotation, it's also a bit redundant. Good catch. If no one else disagrees, I think you should be the one to change it - you earned it. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 06:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

And thanks for the compliment. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 06:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry I hadn't read this until after I made the changes, but I too want to thank SJMNY for contributing and helping us reach common ground. Happyme22 (talk) 02:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion of Siberian Logic Bomb

Further information: [[:Farewell Dossier]]

CIA slipped bug to Soviets, MSNBC.com (2-26-2004) According to Thomas Reed, former Air Force secretary and then-National Security Council member, a CIA program was approved by Reagan in January 1982 in which a computer logic bomb was programmed into software which was meant to be stolen by the Soviets, which they then used to control an oil pipeline in Siberia. The logic bomb, once activated, altered the way that pumps and valves were working within the pipeline and increased the pressure within it beyond capacity, resulting in "the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space" and did significant damage to the Soviet economy, making it a contributing factor to its economic downfall. Could anyone see a way to incorporate this into the article if it is notable enough? ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 06:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

intersting story that might be worth a small article or inclusion somewhere, but i don't think that this, one of probably hundreds of CIA operations during Reagan's presidency, warrants mention in Reagan's biography (maybe in the article "Presidency of Ronald Reagan") unless it was notable at the time or somehow becomes a point of contention between the U.S. and Russia today SJMNY (talk) 03:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Environmental legacy

The article needs info about his environmental policies from his time as California Governor through his Presidency. Remember his remarks on trees? Atomic Wedgie (talk) 13:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I actually agree. It belongs in the 1980 presidential campaign section ad I'll look for it when I have the chance. Happyme22 (talk) 18:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

he said "trees cause more pollution than automobiles do" though i don't know what the context of the statement was. (theres allegedly a report in the journal "Nature" that backs this claim up, though i can't find it and only read about it through an associated press story about the report.)

the quote aside, the article "Presidency of Ronald Reagan" would be a good place for any extensive discussion of his environmental policies, though a mention of them would be appropriate here as well SJMNY (talk) 03:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Do you have a source? Happyme22 (talk) 03:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)