Talk:Master of Laws

The opening paragraphs are very US-centric. In England (and most Commonwealth/Commonlaw countries) the degree of LLM is not a professional qualification. In order to practise (note the UK English spelling) one generally completes another year of vocational study. The course names vary from country to country but generally contain the word Vocational. I think this page would benefit from an overhaul that makes explicit those elements that pertain to the US and then to other jurisdictions.

• • • Please also note in the 'Academic Degrees - Law Degrees' part that one can actually obtain an MSc in Law from the London School of Economics. This isn't listed

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"New York allows foreign lawyers to gain admission to the bar once they have completed their LL.M."

If the above statement is accurate, the article should at least be complemented with further information on the relevant provisions and their construction:

From Part 520 of its Court Rules, http://www.nybarexam.org/court.htm, it seems that (at best) NY State allows some foreign lawyers (in particular from Common Law jurisdictions) to sit the NY bar examination. Direct admission of foreigners to the bar seems restricted to exceptional cases for those holding high legal office.

Unfortunately, http://www.nybarexam.org/foreign.htm does not currently provide the required details.

The previous version, http://web.archive.org/web/20041012140842/www.nybarexam.org/foreign.htm, also contrary to the above line from the article, spelled out a requirement that the degree be a U.S. LL.M from study including courses in American Law.

"However, California's position has come under fire as of late regarding its unfair educational requirements for foreign lawyers and the four year requirement, especially when ABA law schools are becoming less and less credible than some foreign institutions."

-I think this needs some substantiation. ABA law schools are becoming less and less credible? According to whom? Top-tier employers in Botswana?

Qualifications of Foreign Trained Lawyers

"LL.M. degrees in the United States are often earned by foreigners who have previously obtained a foreign law degree abroad. U.S.-educated lawyers, before proceeding to obtain an LL.M., generally have a total of seven years of education: four as an undergraduate and three to obtain a J.D. Foreign lawyers (who may have been trained in undergraduate institutions, giving the traditional name for the basic law degree, the LL.B.) generally have a total of five years of education: four in their home country, and one in the United States as an LL.M. Although foreigners may obtain an LL.M. after fewer total years of academic training than their U.S. colleagues, it represents a greater degree of achievement in legal education."

My understanding and experience is that most european lawyers have five years of preparation: three at the bachelors level, and two at the masters level. The LL.M. offerred by US institutions is often a crediential required for foreign-trained lawyers who want access to the various state bars or who do work for US clients in their home countries and want to develop an understanding of US common law and various aspects of US commercial law.

However, the last part of this discussion gives me pause. Having studied law in Europe, I noticed marked differences in the course load, the quality of teaching, the intensity of the program, the age and maturity of the students in each program, and the different attitude of each region's students to their work. I would be prepared to state that a three-year legal education in the US is quite comparable to the five-year european course of study, if not actually superior.

I would correct the academic requirements for the foreign lawyers by listing the home country education period at "four to five years in their home country" and strike the last sentence suggesting that US trained lawyers are somehow underprepared.

Master of Legal Studies

Should it have its own article or be mentioned in this article? -- Robocoder (t|c) 13:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Academic Status of the J.D. Degree

The article states that law students in the US "receive a doctorate degree first and their Master of Laws degree second. "

I find the statement above odd given that the prevalent opinion, at least in academic circles, is that the J.D. is not a doctoral qualification. In fact, in the academic order of precedence, a J.D. ranks lower than an LL.M. 161.24.19.82 11:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Then why is it called a Juris Doctor, why are J.D. holders university presidents, and why do J.D. holders wear doctorate robes? In which "academic circle" are you standing? ;) Zoticogrillo (talk) 17:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The J.D. (Juris Doctor) degree was formerly known as a LL.B. (Bachelor of Laws) degree, as was derived from its English common-law origins. Some decades ago, it was changed to the J.D. so as to be reflective of the fact that in the States a J.D. is a second degree. The original order of degrees was an LL.B., LL.M, and LL.D. In the States, that is now a J.D., LL.M., and SJD (or equivalent). A J.D. is most certainly NOT a doctorate degree; it does not entitle the receipient to claim a doctorate nor is it ever viewed as such in North America. A doctorate in law is the terminal (usually fourth) degree that a recipient will receive. The LL.D. in the States is now usually a honorary degree; the usual academic doctorate is a S.J.D. or similar. Rabidemu (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

How should the following be interpreted in light of Rabidemu's assertions?

2. J.D. Degree - Ph.D. Degree Equivalency: WHEREAS, the acquisition of a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree requires from 84 to 90 semester hours of post baccalaureate study and the Doctor of Philosophy degree usually requires 60 semester hours of post baccalaureate study along with the writing of a dissertation, the two degrees shall be considered as equivalent degrees for educational employment purposes; THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that all appropriate persons be requested to eliminate any policy, or practice, existing within their jurisdiction which disparages legal education or promotes discriminatory employment practices against J.D. degree-holders who hold academic appointment in education institutions. (http://www.abanet.org/legaled/standards/standardsdocuments/Council%20Statements.pdf) 75.68.192.62 (talk) 08:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone go to an non aba approved school, get an LLM and be able to sit for the bar ?

[1] Armyguy11 (talk) 23:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

LL.M. / J.D. and J.D. / LL.B.

The LL.M. and LL.B. are generally academic degrees, while the J.D. is a professional degree (including no study of history or theory). Therefore, comparisons are tenuous and not useful. Zoticogrillo (talk) 17:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by academic vs. professional degree, but while getting a J.D. you do study both history and legal theory. The extent to which a J.D. student is exposed to theory and history may vary greatly between law schools and depend on which courses a student chooses to take, but every J.D. student will be exposed to both history and theory. My understanding about the differences between a J.D. and a LL.B. is the country that you are educated in (U.S. vs. the rest of the world). The difference between a J.D. and an LL.M. (at least in the U.S.) is the level of indepth study that one undertakes in a particular area of law. While there is the potential to study more theoretical aspects of law by pursing an LL.M., there is also the opportunity to study a specialized area of law (such as tax or bankruptcy) that J.D. students are usually not exposed to in any great detail with a emphasis on the practice of law rather than the theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.87.165 (talk) 07:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Several concerns

This list of concerns will evolve as time permits. First in the second paragraph of the "The United States Approach": I would point the author to the following link http://officialguide.lsac.org/InformationalPDFs/Post-JDProgramsBySchool.pdf. I did not count them but it appears that numerous LL.M programs exist at ABA approved schools. Second, the fifth paragraph of the same section makes lists the two primary states for practice as NY and CA. Clarification is needed. If the statement is meant to imply that these two are the states where the majority of foreign lawyers reside in U.S. practice then the author should make this clear and cite the support. If another meaning is intended it should be identified and cited. Thanks75.68.192.62 (talk) 07:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)