Talk:Transformers (film)

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Copyedit

Template:LOCErequest JimDunning (talk · contribs) is now taking care of my request. Alientraveller (talk) 11:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Cast

Blackout

What about Blackout? How come he doesn't have his own biography like everyone else in the "Decepticons" section? -JasonQ87

Blackout was not voiced by anyone. Likewise with Devastator and Scorponok. Alientraveller (talk) 22:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of weather or not he had a human voice, he is still an important character in the story and should be included in the list of other characters. I am adding him. Andrew (talk) 18:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The section is "cast", not "characters that appear in the film". He's mentioned in the plot section. There is no need to mention him again in the "cast" section when he isn't part of the "Cast".  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow... Responded quickly... I decided against adding him myself... but I still think digital characters should be added in the cast list. Andrew (talk) 18:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Alientraveller and Bignole -- if there is to be real-world context about Blackout, it would be more appropriate in Production instead of Cast. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there's no point in having Blackout in the cast list when nobody voiced him. Production fits better. Anakinjmt (talk) 19:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I support Andrew that Blackout and Devastator should be in the characters list or cast characters list. Technically or academically they are not "cast". But most viewers won't know until they read it. To disobey people's instinct logic and hide the fact somewhere else won't help people know it quickly or at all.Cofi (talk) 03:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Your instinct is to assume that a CGI character, that does not speak, would be listed in a section for characters that were represented physically or verbally by an actual actor? You cannot make a blanket statement about what "most viewers" will assume, unless you actually have statistical data to support such a theory. If readers are only interested in "what Transformers are in the movie", they can read the plot, that's why it is there.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I admit I don't have any statistical data to support my theory. I am not sure the burden of proof has to be on my side since neither side has the data. My point is that I agree your technical definition of "cast", but not itemizing non-speaking transformers with other voiced transformers would probably cause confusion. (again, no statistically significant data to prove it, only me and my friends got confused when we read it the first time) My suggestion is to list non-speaking CGI with the others and tell the reader there instead of in some other section. I didn't find any "what Transformers are in the movie" section and am not sure what you refer to Cofi (talk) 19:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Why are you still arguing over this? He's in the cast section now. Alientraveller (talk) 19:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Devastator

Why tank Devastator is not in Decepticons section?Cofi (talk) 05:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

See above discussion on Blackout Quetzilla (talk) 09:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposal

I think a mistake many of us editors and Transformers fans have made is that the voice actor is be all and end all to the performance of a 20-foot robot. It's not: this totally disrespectful to the animators and the prop makers who bring the characters to life via computers and vehicle driving. So my proposal is to start rearranging the article, so the newly-renamed "Cast and characters" section ultimately supplements Production. What say you? Alientraveller (talk) 10:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I think I have advocated it be a character list for some time, so I agree, add all the Cybertronian characters to the list, even if they didn't have a voice actor. Mathewignash (talk) 12:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

My opinion on cast lists has been that they shouldn't exist. I believe in "Casting" sections under "Production". To me, a cast list does nothing but open the door to IU information that should really be in the plot section. Having a casting section is better because you stick to the essentials.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

But that's not my point: what I'd like to do is start extrapolating and displaying specific information on the creation of each character. Similar to Jurassic Park, except clearly, the robots had dramatic roles too. Alientraveller (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather not see things suppliment production sections. I think having the cast mentioned in a casting section, and the robots mentioned in both a special effects section and probably a writing section. SFX covers their design, while writing covers how their individual personalities were created for the film itself. The voice actors can be discussed on the casting section as well.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

What about an alternative way of presenting information about the Transformers? The Actor as Role setup doesn't apply, clearly. Why not just have a table containing three columns -- Transformer, vehicle type, and voice actor? It wouldn't put the voice actor at the forefront. As for in-universe detail about each Transformer in the film, what is being suggested about that? I don't think we really need to detail what a Transformer specifically does in the film to back its real-world context. The general role seems enough -- e.g., leader of the bad guys, one of the good guys. For the real-world context, I agree with Bignole about having the information segmented where it's relevant -- Casting, Special effects, Writing, etc. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 23:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a draft of what I've imagined in my head User:Alientraveller/Transformers (film)#Cast/Production redraft Alientraveller (talk) 11:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Implemented now due to approval from Bignole and Liquidfinale (talk · contribs) on my talk page. Alientraveller (talk) 16:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Live-action/animation

Every time I put the Category:Live-action/animation films thing on the Transformers (film) page, they delete it. Why? Transformers is a live-action/animated film. All the Transformers are computer animated. -Dpm12

I think that's because it isn't an animated film, but a live action film with some animation in it. Just about any film with CGI would be considered "live action/animation" when you think about it, no matter how minute the CGI was. Plus, in this day and age, when you say "animation" you initially think of things like Bugs Bunny or the Little Mermaid, you know, something that is more cartoon. At least, that is my first thought, and possibly the thought of those that are removing the category.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the examples at the category. The category refers to traditional animation, not computer-generated effects. If this were the case, films like the Matrix sequels would belong. This is the threshold that exists, and Transformers doesn't fall in that category. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Bay on sequel script

“ I can't do the movie without my writers, but I have been prepping. I'm not in the guild, but I've been writing every day. This strike (is) insane, and a director's responsibility is to the 50 crew members who depend on you for their livelihoods. We've got battle plans ready for the possibility of an actors strike. Somehow, you've got to keep the ball rolling. ”

[1]

I'm confused. Does this mean Michael is writing the script now? Alientraveller (talk) 10:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. To me, it more implies that he's throwing some story ideas together or something, in order to plan and prep his action scenes and ready for the writers to work with when they come back off strike. Steve ^{T • C} 10:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Kurtzman, Ehran, and Orci wrote an outline and submitted it to Bay the day before the strike began. Bay's "template" is basically a fleshed-out version of said outline —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.151.66.253 (talk) 07:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit issues

These are questions and issues raised during the copy-edit process.

• There's a passage in the Production>Effects section that references the animators using Prime and Megatron's weapons from the show —

"Bay instructed the animators to observe footage of two martial artists and numerous martial arts films to make the fights look graceful. Many of the animators were big Transformers fans and were given free rein to experiment: a scene where Jazz attacks Devastator is a reference to a scene in The Transformers: The Movie where Kup jumps on Blitzwing."

The second sentence seems out of place, a non sequitur. It may support Bay getting the desired fight style, but some additional context would be helpful to enhance the cohesiveness of the section. Can anyone provide more info?
Jim Dunning | talk 14:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• • I rearranged it and took a cue from the DVD: they actually discuss how many fans animated the movie after discussing ILM and Digital Domain's work load. Alientraveller (talk) 15:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• The first line of the Plot section states that Optimus Prime is explaining Cybertron's destruction. Is this a voiceover? To whom is he explaining this? Is this straight-forward exposition? The sentence should have an object, but I haven't seen the film so I can't add context. Also it says, "and his quest to obtain the All Spark." Is this OP's quest or Megatron's? I want to break up this long sentence, but need to understand the context.
  • Optimus narrates the beginning, middle and end of the film, so the movie's always had this context being about Optimus's discovery and appreciation of humanity. I'll see what I can do, as "The film begins with" is rather redundant.
• In the same paragraph there's a reference to "Cube". Should there be additional context? Is the Cube the name of the facility at Hoover Dam? Also, it says Sector 7 discovers the All Spark; should it location on Earth be mentioned here?
  • The All Spark is nicknamed the Cube by every character. This should be removed or fleshed out.
• In the fourth paragraph there is a statement, "Locating the All Spark, he sends an alert to the other Decepticons." What is the antecedent of "he"? Who sends the alert? Is it Frenzy or Megatron?
  • Frenzy alerts all the other Decepticons.
• Also fourth paragraph, the sentence, "Frenzy's virus has shut down government communications, so the Autobot-human convoy goes to nearby Mission City to get a radio that can communicate with the Air Force into taking the All Spark away." is confusing. Are only certain radios able to contact the Air Force and are they few and far between? Is it supposed to say something like "the Autobot-human convoy goes to nearby Mission City to radio the Air Force to ask it to take the All Spark away", or something to that effect?
  • Even after repeatedly viewing the film, I'm unclear on this myself. Essentially Frenzy's virus planted on Air Force One evolves to take down military communications, bar a basic non-digital line the hackers and the secretary of defense use to eventually call the F-22 Raptors into action.

• In the end I count four Decepticons dead and Starscream escapes to Space. That appears to leave Scorponok and Barricade unaccounted for. What is their status? Who dumps the dead Decepticons into the ocean?
  • Keller orders the Decepticons killed in the climactic battle to be dumped in the Laurentian Abyss. Indeed, Scorponok and Barricade's fates were left open to the sequel.

• Again fourth para, it says, "Optimus takes a fragment of the All Spark from Megatron's corpse, but realizes that with it destroyed . . . ." Does "it" refer to Megatron or the All Spark?
  • Maybe a good time to use the Cube nickname. Alientraveller (talk) 10:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Jim Dunning | talk 05:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Academy Award Nomination

I'm going to re-add the bit in the intro about it being Academy Award nominated, its notable. Numerous articles for actors and actress' on wikipedia who were nominated and didn't win an academy award and/or golden globe award have the same note in the intro. The Academy Awards are arguably for film what the Hall of Fame is for baseball or any other sport. Just being nominated for an Academy Award denotes excellence in the field of cinema. WalterWalrus3 (talk) 02:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

And that's more important than being a live action film adaptation of the toy line? I rephrased it so as not to be so biased. Alientraveller (talk) 08:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sentence order can indirectly cause bias. By putting the Academy Awards in the first sentence you are indirectly saying that the AA are better than any other award, because no others are listed. Second, the first thing a person reads when they come to the page is about how good the film must be, because it won awards. Per WP:LEAD the first paragraph should contain all the basic information about the film, and the second paragraph (or really the last paragraph if you have more than two paragraphs) should contain the information that makes it notable.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, check this out please.

Resolved

Also this. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 11:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 17:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Critical reception

So... I see nothing in the critical reception or reaction section about the movie's portrayal of black people, as with Anthony Anderson and Bernie Mac's characters. In the movie, (probably jokingly, but nonetheless) they are shown as being extremely rude and profane with their mothers or grandmothers, and the maternal figures are the same with them. I suppose it's not listed because no one reputable made a big deal of it, but it seems not to be appealing at that point, especially then to me as a black person, or as I'd say brown.  ?
~ GoldenGoose100 (talk) 17:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts would have to be that no one talked about it, in which case you should blame the critics and not the Wiki article. Now, if you can find some reliable critiquing of such elements, then I would say it would be a shame not to include it.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If a white person had played Glen, would people cry "racism"! No. The argument is pretty void. Alientraveller (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Alientraveller, I don't know what you're trying to get at there, but fact is 1. A white person did not portray Glen 0 he told his Grandmother to shut up and drink prune juice come on now, and 2. There is also Bernie Mac's character. So that's two instances. And let's not forget the emergency call that was transferred through the presumed Indian telecommunications guy. The movie seems to play on stereotypes purposefully probably as a joke. But don't start playing race games here. I was just wondering if it was mentioned anywhere. I'm not that good at finding new citations anyway ~ GoldenGoose100 (talk) 06:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the telecommunications scene, that was based on a real-life incident. I wonder where I should place that. Alientraveller (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just accept the fact that blacks will be a target no matter how many wonderful things they do for the world, such as 72.49.148.17 (talk) 01:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The hidden message near the plot

Any particular reason why it was removed in early December last year? TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 13:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

As the film has been out for ages and most drive-by editors (who searched for the article after seeing the film) got the point. Alientraveller (talk) 15:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Some Dialog

Captain Lennox: Mission City is 22 miles away. We're gonna sneak that key outta here and we're gonna hide it somewhere in the city. Secretary of Defense: Good!

That was part of their mission, they were also looking for a way to communicate with the airstrike. That is why this section is a "summary" and not a play-by-play.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they want to grab some ice cream, but the dialog above is all they tell us about their reasons to go to the city. The airstrike is supposed to be called by the SOD and the other guys from the old radio.

A summary shouldn't contain wrongness. --87.189.121.82 (talk)

First, please don't say "wrongness", that's not even a word. Second, the summary contains their actions. What do they do when they get to Mission City? They try and find radios that will work so that they can contact the Air Force and get a strike team in, as well as get a transport out for the All Spark. Hiding the All Spark is just the initially phase of their plan. The SOD called them initially, but it was the ground force that guided them to the correct location (something the SOD couldn't do since he had no idea where exactly they were).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no. The article currently says that they go to the city to hide the allspark and obtain a radio; the second part is not mentioned in the movie; it's simply not verifiable, because it is wrong. (They do obtain radios while in the city though.) --87.189.121.82 (talk)

You mean the part where Josh Duhamel's character picks up the short wave radios and says -- (and I quote), "I want planes for air cover and get a Blackhawk helicopter to extract the Cube." -- isn't verifiable information that they are doing what I just said they are doing?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I mean; but they are in the city already, so it's no reason to go to the city. (Does it make sense? Nope, but that's not the only thing that doesn't in the script.) Can't you just find a sentence to bring both facts together? (I can't think of anything.)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.189.117.71 (talk)

As the plot is a summary, it doesn't entirely matter what order events are: yes, Lennox and Epps improvised during the battle, but at the end of the day, they were in Mission City and got a shortwave radio to communicate with the Raptors and helicopters for defense and extraction. And please sign your comments. Alientraveller (talk) 10:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

That same MOS that you're citing at "The Incredible Hulk" is the same one that says events don't have to take place in the plot section in the same order as they do in the film itself. If people want to know precisely what happens, they should watch the movie. As far as the summary goes, they simply go to Mission City to hide the All Spark and retrieve some communication equipment so that they can coordinate with the planes and helicopters. You are basically removing that last bit-which is more important then the "hiding the All Spark"-the entire battle is interrupting them extacting that All Spark, not hiding it. Did they ever get to Mission City and say, "ok, go hide this some where"...no, they were in battle from the moment they left the dam, and as soon as they got to Mission City they grabbed radios to communicate with the Air Force.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

There. Alientraveller (talk) 18:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes! That's what I couldn't think of before! Thanks! (And I hope you don't mind my detail change.) --87.189.93.245 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

We do not talk about order; the radios were simply not given as a reason to enter the city. Why do you think the summary would be better if the false statement is added?

I suspect that you try to interpret my version of the summary and come up with a blank; so did I; that's the fault of the script though. Wikipedia should not fix faulty scripts in its summaries.

So, please, don't try to write in your version of what the script should have been. Wikipedia relies on verifiability; script-doctoring is not an option.

Again, Why do you think the summary would be better if the false statement is added? --87.189.93.245 (talk)

Whatever, it's been settled. Alientraveller (talk) 18:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Alientraveller just commented: "I just don't want the military to look like idiots for putting the Cube in a populated area, it's just Lennox never originally mentioned that"

It's not the military that are the idiots, it's the script writers. Yes, they explicitly mentioned to move into the most populated area they could reach to hide there, see dialog excerpt at the top of the section. Yes, this is very, very stupid. So is using visible light for laser designators. So is waiting for a pair of Thunderbolts when a Spooky is nearby. The list goes on. Again, please don't try to fix the movie's script in Wikipedia's summary. --87.189.93.245 (talk)

Actually, at BotCon 2007, the writers said their point was for Mission City to be a rendevouz point. And it still is that during the final battle, even if Lennox doesn't mention that reason to the silly secretary. So another piece of Bay bashing, courtesy of me. He doesn't mind.

Now enough off-topic joking around. Alientraveller (talk) 20:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Operation Redwing

The part of the movie where they escape the base is amazingly like the events of operation redwing. A failed operation in afganistan i think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.96.132.136 (talk) 01:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless you can provide a reliable source, we're not going to make a whacked comparison of real life to a giant robot attack. And Blackout and Scorponok's attack was in Qatar. Alientraveller (talk) 09:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

3d design of characters

Interesting fact needs to be included. This also is a yardstick of computer CGI in movies. Someone include the number of polygons it took to model Optimus prime. Here's the website. 1.8 million polygons for one model. Amazing.

http://www.design-engine.com/feature.php?feature=71 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.152.32.238 (talk) 03:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Design Feature's so called "news" article stole that info from VFXWorld, which I worked in ages ago. Alientraveller (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You keep deleting extremely relevant information. Do you not understand that people want to know how the movie was made and know how many polygons were used ? --70.243.74.186 (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

1) Optimus's number of mechanical pieces is unnecessary, reader already understands how complex Ironhide's cannons alone are.

2) Length of polygons is trivial.

3) Article is stolen from another website (which is already cited in the article) and should not be linked.

Alientraveller (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC) --70.243.74.186 (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Most of the article is unnecessary. We don't need information on how much money it grossed. You obviously don't understand or care how the movie was made. Why are you even moderating this page?

Polygons for this film are mentioned in a lot of messageboards about this film. Telling people how many in one sentence shouldn't be a problem. It's also a benchmark of Cgi films.