This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Triwbe(talk | contribs) at 11:14, 1 April 2008(Notification: Speedy deletion nomination of VK Gusar. (TW)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 11:14, 1 April 2008 by Triwbe(talk | contribs)(Notification: Speedy deletion nomination of VK Gusar. (TW))
I usually reply to posted messages here, but if the message is important I'll notify you on on your talkpage as well.
If I posted a message on your talkpage I will reply there, but feel free to notify me on my talk if you feel it is urgent.
I'd prefer it if noone removed content here, but naturally I have no objections if it's just grammar.
Please don't revert my edits on this page.
Finally: no insults. I can take criticism as much as the next guy, but outright personal attacks will be reverted and reported.
Heads up and my personal apology
Hello DIREKTOR et al. I'm writing here because I know the group of you will get this message. While I cannot support ultra nationalists of any stripe or colour, I write to you to convey my disapproval of the so-called "Italian" side of this coin, especially since I notice my name has been included to suggest I sympathise- I DO NOT! In fact, I have "retired" my account because I'm tired of WP's inability to deal with POV pushers on lower profile articles [that includes your lot, by the way]. Anyways... I cannot help the occasional snooping and, this time, I could not resist intervention. I am certain User:Pannonicus, User:Marygiove and numerous anon IP numbers (for example [1][2][3] and many others, always from Colorado, USA) are puppets of User:Brunodam. He is on this mission of promoting Italian irredentism, including use of Template:Italian Ethnic Groups for this purpose. I am not sure if there is a direct connection with GG and his alter egos, but of Brunodam I am positive (In fact, there is one slipped contribution where he signs as "Mary", but is logged on as Brunodam!). While I will likely continue to snoop from time to time, in future I will not intervene. Ciao, Mariokempes (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The worst part of it is that I somehow got the reputation of an "anti-Italian" activist or something. I go to Italy (of my own free will:) almost twice a year in average, and its not to mine bridges or crash into skyscrapers, either.
Anyway, thanks for the heads up, Mariokempes. Didn't he say he broke his leg or what not a few months back, you don't suppose it was for the purpose of throwing us off-course? Could you report the guy for puppeteering? You seem to know where most of the evidence is --DIREKTOR(TALK)20:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mariokempes, what a breath of fresh air to read your words. Brunodam's already been known to 'speak through invisible friends'. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Brunodam. I'd like to take the opportunity to join this conversation here to say a couple of things. First, we know there are basically three groups of people who edit Wikipedia. There's the out and out vandals, mostly kids, I think, who randomly delete text or add "YOU ARE G*Y!" to articles. Then there are the two main groups. Those who are keen on making a better, more detailed, more balanced encyclopedia. This is the vast majority. Then there is the third group, those who have issues or agendas in their minds, and seek to use Wiki as a forum or platform for them. Mario, these are the people on your mind, of course. Now, in this case, the troubled history of Dalmatia means that there are people in the last group who have strong opinions about Dalmatia's history, and Wiki is a place where they have a chance to put their views across. Dalmatia is not the worst Wiki-area, by the way. If you want to see some real blood on the carpet, have a look at the articles about the Armenian genocide, for example. But there are some who see the post WWII settlement on the eastern side of the Adriatic as a profound injustice. GG and Cherso are the names that spring to mind. Mariokempes, I want to strongly point out (but completely in the spirit of your message, of understanding and friendship) that while you say "the group of you will get this message", yes that's true - Direktor's talk is on my watchlist - I don't see us as 'a group'. I think there are basically four of us (Kubura, Zen, Direktor and me) who have these articles on our watchlists and who regularly contribute to them. But I don't know any of them; I don't know any of their real names; I don't even know if they are male or female. I can absolutely say there is no orchestration involved. If we are a group, we are that because we share an interest in these articles and try to make sure that there is no particular opinion or bias in them. We have naturally coalesced around these articles because we share the same outlook about Wikipedia. I have never once seen an edit by any of this 'group' of editors that I would call 'nationalist' or POV. I would oppose it if I did. Nearly every edit we make is to remove nationalist content. Normally it's silly things, like adding the Italian flag at the top of talk pages, or what places should be called. I don't know. I guess I just want to say that I've read your message to Direktor, and I personally appreciate it very much. I recently got a warning for vandalism because I wrote something on Cherso's talk page when he'd written some inflammatory anti-Slavic stuff there. I don't think any of the admins read what Cherso wrote to inspire my response, but that's Wikipedia. That's what you call "WP's inability to deal with POV pushers".
AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The main problem, if I may add, is the profound bias these guys have. We are talking about either Venetian "nationalists" ("nostalgics" is perhaps the more appropriate name) who are extremely fond of their city's (rich) historical culture and tradition, a vital part of which is control over the Dalmatian coast (the Adriatic sea has even been known as the Gulf of Venice). They simply try to make the Dalmatian region seem as Italian as possible (though Italians/Venetians have always been a minority).
Then there's the "other kind", the "esuli" (exiles). These guys descend from people who left Dalmatia after Italy lost WW2. Now, the situation is complex here. The term "exiles" is of course an over dramatization, as no one actually forced them to leave with military power, but they did leave because of the extremely inhospitable environment they found themselves in. The Slavic population that surrounded them was indeed hostile to those they saw as former oppressors, aggressors and occupiers (keep in mind the brutality of the WW2 Yugoslav front). The fact remains that this hostility was almost certainly not specifically planned (there was no need, after all) by the Yugoslav government. This is a complex situation because the emigrants are indeed unfortunate people and a kind of voluntary refugees, even though the search for a better life in Italy almost certainly played its part in their motivation. The experience of being passively forced to leave their homes made them (and apparently their children) extremely racially biased and aggressive against Slavs they see as a culturally inferior but numerically superior people (something like Tolkien's Orcs :). Now with all due sympathy to their family past, such bias is unacceptable on Wikipedia, and must be pointed out to the Admins. --DIREKTOR(TALK)00:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Any hint of creating some encyclopedic balance in these articles is crushed when I come across statements like this. You are just as bad as the "Italian" ultra nationalists and your "suggestion" that the "Italians" are aligned with the British and Americans really makes me shake my head. My apology above was an "olive branch" to all of you: an understanding that the two zealots you confront (Yes, I believe there are only two- I'll let you guess which one Cherso belongs to) do not represent a unified Italian voice or even the majority. And, if I may, I think my English is quite good- better than most Americans! Mariokempes (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What?! Calm down Mario! I merely stated accepted fact, its not disputed that Slavs constituted a majority in Dalmatia as a region, even by the irredentists! You are NOT "aligned" with the Americans and British, and that is certainly not what I meant. All I meant was that Italian culture is closer to the English culture than the Slavic culture is, and this is also widely accepted. Italian names simply "sound better" in general (to Slavs as well), and this is also widely accepted. Example: "Zara" sounds a lot better than "Zadar", (and can be a lot more easily pronounced) even though it is incorrect. You really need to calm down, I meant no offence as I was talking about the irredentists. However if you do believe Dalmatia is "rightfully Italian" or something like that then there is no need to offer any olive branches, I'm afraid. --DIREKTOR(TALK)18:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Direktor, I am calm... and where do I say Dalmatia is rightfully "Italian"? I was not reacting to your statement that "Slavs constituted a majority in Dalmatia as a region". I was reacting to the tone of your message. We both agree these guys are supreme idiots (that is not the issue). Maybe I misread these cyber discussions... but I was referring to what I perceive as an aggressive air. I cannot pretend to understand the Croatian spirit (what a stereotype!), but you give me the sense you are lumping all Italians together as imperial irredentists when my "olive branch" was a statement to the contrary. I will say there is a most definite Italian connection to Istria and Dalmatia, and if you see this as imperialsim then we have nothing further to discuss. If you agree, we are well under way to balance and full representation in the articles. For someone who is "retired" I've spent a fair bit of time on WP lately. Ciao Mariokempes (talk) 19:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lumping all Italians together...! I mean no offense, but that's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I heard in weeks, I have a two dozen Italian relatives (I can't even count them anymore:) and at least a dozen friends on the other side of the Adriatic! And I'm anyway not as stupid as to "lump" any nation together. Every country and its people are divided a thousand times over various issues and beliefs, especially Italy (if I may say so). You guys have a hundred parties, and I'm still not sure who is in a coalition with who over there and for what reasons (not that Croatia is much better). Like I've written on my userpage: I AM NOT ANTI-ITALIAN, I just don't like it when Dalmatia's unique mixed culture is "claimed" by these guys and "lumped together" as Italian.
Of course there is an Italian connection to Istria nad Dalmatia, noone is even trying to deny that. FFS, we have a huge number of Italian words in our local dialect down here (piaca, peškarija, riva, etc...). --DIREKTOR(TALK)21:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi.
I totally agree with what you say that there seems to be somewhat of an anti-slavic stance in wikipedia, and the western world, in general. We have to persist in out efforts to balance articles, and let the truth be told. Slavs aren't just a bunch of primitive, war-mongerers (although recently, we don;t have much to be proud of). The whol italian thing you have been having trouble with, as the same i;m experienceing 'on the other side'- with Greeks about Macedonia et al.
Hi :) Well, I wouldn't call it a deliberate "anti-Slavic stance" (though even here we may find exceptions), its just that Anglo-Saxon culture(s) are understandably "closer" to the Romance ones, than they are to the Slavic. Its incredibly hard for Americans, for example, to pronounce most South Slavic (Serbian/Croatian) words correctly (this I know from many a personal experience). I imagine the situation is less so with Western Slavs, and more so with Eastern Slavs though I can't say I'm exactly an expert. I remember one guy in LA remarking that "Zagreb" sounds like some Klingon word or something, the same guy found it hilarious that I come from a city that's called (a) "Split". Anyway, I agree that people have a "legitimate" reason (of sorts) for perceiving us as primitives when we slaughter each other over what basically amounts to religious differences, on the eve of the 21st century no less.
Yeah, I've always been annoyed that the Greeks are forcing Macedonia to keep that FYR prefix to their country's name. They had no objections when the Republic was part of a far more influential political entity. I suppose they fear invasion or something... ;) Anyway, don't get me started on the irredentists.
Well, Watson dared to state publicly that people of the Negroid race are scientifically proven to posses somewhat lower intelligence than Caucasians. Now I believe that the mentality of the modern society is greatly restricted by an ever increasing egalitarian stance. I am always in favor of unlimited science, and I cannot abide it when it is diminished to suite the needs of society. For example, IQ testing all over the world has proven beyond question that the sociological group with the highest IQ over all are Caucasian males, but one must not say this in public or in the media for fear of being socially branded a nazi, or racist, or who knows what. Even now that I've written this I may be attacked, just for stating scientific fact. --DIREKTOR(TALK)02:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ha. You're a funny, and correct, man. I too am frustrated by all the PC rubbish that goes on today. Fact should be told as it is. I hate all the left-wing quasi -intellectuals who try to impose equality when clearly there is no such thing, just so they fell more self-righteous. ANyway, i won;t get started. Goodluck Hxseek (talk) 04:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, congradz on your specialization (I'm hoping to be accepted for an Internal medicine specialization myself). Surgery is particularly difficult, I hear. R.A.C.S. is noted even up here, I know of a couple of colleagues hoping to get a specialization down under (on account of their Aussie cousins, I've heard). Good luck yourself. --DIREKTOR(TALK)04:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your most recent edits don't read very well. For instance did you mean to say that the NDH regained de jure responsibility for areas that had been annexed by Hungary? Elsewhere too the English is rather clumsy and potentially ambiguous. I could try to sort it out, but as English is your native language you mightprefer to do it yourself? Regards Kirker (talk) 23:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose you will notice that someone removed "puppet state" from the intro. The new version may be technically accurate, but without saying enough about NDH's subservient status. On the other hand "puppet state" will always be contentious as it is so blatantly derogatory. You said somewhere that Germany dictated the composition of Pavelic's cabinet etc, and if you have a source for that I would like to see it in the article. With that kind of detail added, the terminology would not be too important, since anyone could then see the NDH for what it was. Kirker (talk) 17:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
SPA accounts
I do not see points in discussion with nationalistic SPA accounts. User:Mike Babic is created with only intention to write about good Serbs and bad Croats. Similar to that is User:AP1929 which is writing about Ante Pavelic which has not made anything wrong. They both are nothing else but new versions of SPA accounts user:Votec, user:Justiceinwiki , User:Brkic .... Ulmost every month we are having new nationalistic SPA accounts which are knowing real truth. In my personal thinking User:Mike Babic is puppet of User:Procrustes the clown which has rewrited Serbian version of Yugoslav wars but even if this is true it is not possible to block him because he has not broken any rules (OK he has vandalized my user page). After my blocking of 3 users in second half of February I have expected little peace but ....--Rjecina (talk) 03:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, he looks pretty moderate, his edits are pretty much ok... He didn't write anything radical or expansionist. I'm aware of the large number of Serb nationalists editing Wiki all the time, but I'm going to keep an open mind with this guy. The info he added was pretty much correct and he merely removed that text because of its poor quality I think... --DIREKTOR(TALK)03:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now you know problems created by SPA accounts. All historical data which I have added is from other wiki articles and we will not rewrite 10 articles because of nationalistic SPA account--Rjecina (talk) 04:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do not worry about user:Mike Babic . He is having so many warning on talk page (must are my warning but there is administrator warning) that his edits days will end very soon.
I am having many experience with SPA account and my only point: discussion is not possible, because they do not listen. They are ulmost always puppets of banned editor because of which compromise about article is not possible (in my thinking). After blocking or banning of SPA account I revert article to last version before his editing,--Rjecina (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Last night he has recived administrator warning about edit warring. After that he has reverted users Aradic-en , DIREKTOR , Kubura in article Serbs of Croatia and has writen POV stuff in article Republic of Serbian Krajina together with SPA account Procrustes the clown. In my thinking Mike Babic is puppet of Procrustes the clown but because I have tried to connect Procrustes the clown with Velebit I will not try this again (it will look like I am attacking this user). All in all I am sure that he will be blocked :) --Rjecina (talk) 19:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Babic story has ended :)) He has used sock (IP address) for reverting articles. I will start action for his blocking today...--Rjecina (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Article is semi-protected and he is blocked for short time period because of 3RR rule. Now I only need to wait because I have reverted 3 times....--Rjecina (talk) 02:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To tell you truth I am little depressed ...For me must important wiki thing is to revert ban. About problem in article NDH I must say that this IP address is writing OK stuff if we look other wikipedia articles. For begining you must change article Axis powers and move sections Slovakia and Croatia from minor axis powers to German puppet states.--Rjecina (talk) 15:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You second important thing is to revert user:Velebit puppet in article Neo-Nazism. This time he has "worked" from IP address 153.39.144.157 . If you look this article you will know about what I am speaking.--Rjecina (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AE report
A report was filed on you at the arbitration enforcement board yesterday, by someone who might be an inexperienced editor. I just noticed that you hadn't been told. GRBerry14:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A tag has been placed on VK Gusar requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a club, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guidelines for people and for organizations.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Triwbe (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
