Talk:Princess Tutu

Tutu?

Is princess Tutu a Duck,Princess,Girl,and swan or is that just the beginning song.

She is all of them. :) To go into details on that would be spoilers. Actually, the significance of her many different "forms" is something that needs to expanded in the article. I might do some expansion to some of the character descriptions myself, though I am waiting until I have the whole series on DVD, as ending details are blurry to me (and I'll have easy access to the entire series at that point). --EmperorBrandon 18:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Raetsel and Rachel

Well, I had thought of this just as a simple fix to the guest characters, but since I keep having to revert this I might as well provide an explanation here.

The name of the character given on the official website's list of guest characters is レーツェル Rētseru, which is Japanese for "Rätsel" or "Raetsel". This appears to be a German word. I don't know much about German (so don't know what it means or if it is a regular name), but it does make sense because there are several instances of German names in Princess Tutu ("Krähe" or "Kraehe" being another).

The katakana above is not pronounced at all like the common name "Rachel". Checking for the name in WWWJDIC or even looking for someone's name in Japanese Wikipedia, it is written out レイチェル Reicheru, which definitely is closer and makes more sense.

This is a minor character, but I would really want all the names to be correct and not to use inaccurate fansub spellings. --EmperorBrandon 19:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

From the English Dub, Raetsel seems to be what they went with anyhow.

Kimun 02:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Rätsel (or Raetsel; both spellings are apparently valid) is German for "Mystery". -|- 01:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I just checked a wikipage on umlaut rules. Basically, if umlauts are available, one should probably prefer them over "ae" diphthongs. -|- 00:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone removed my translation of "Kraehe", I'd like to know the reason, I know it's meaning, because I am German, and it's a German word. May I replace the "ae" in "Kraehe" and "Raetsel" with the correct umlaut "ä"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.3.99 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The translation was not from a neutral, reliable source,. No you should not replace the ae with the umlaut. The names are listed as they are spelled in the official English translation material. Collectonian (talk) 03:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Sales Performance

ADV's Mike Bailiff was quoted as saying that Tutu's performance was less than stellar. Anyone want to try to include this in the article? [1] Kyaa the Catlord 08:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Although the article has tons of great information, one big problem is that it's pretty clear that the author is biased and likes the show. (not that I don't; I love it.) It would probably be better for a wikipedia article if the writer doesn't gush about the shows greatness and lets it speak for itself. :-) --Sailor Titan 16:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

If you think so, be bold and slap a tag on it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahiru vs Duck..

Ok, anyone who is watching or looks at the history would see someone just changed everything from Akiru to Duck. Now granted, Duck is the official English name, but it seems almost the same argument at color vs colour -- the choise of the person who originally wrote the majority should be respected, though maybe there's a policy on this? I haven't looked at the anime project to see yet (I'm about to), but I figure the sooner after the edit this is brought up, the better. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I reverted this edit per the discusion at WP:Anime. The NA version sold badly, to the point where the release was nearly cancelled. The majority of fans of this series would recognize Ahiru as Ahiru, not as "Duck". Kyaa the Catlord 22:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Have any source on "the majority of fans"? For all we know, more people may know her name as Duck. Even if it sold badly, it still may have been seen in English by more people who bought the R1 release than otherwise. However, I'll agree that Ahiru should be kept for three reasons:

1) Respecting original writer's choice (as Melodia said).

2) Ahiru is official in original Japanese materials where the names of other characters are made foreign (such as Neko-sensei becoming "Mr. Cat" and "Herr Katze").

3) From what I've heard, "Ahiru" is kept in the ADV's manga translation.

--EmperorBrandon 00:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahiru should not be kept for one reason (as mentioned in the staff commentary of the first Princess Tutu disc): The word "Ahiru" means "Duck" in Japanese, and is not a name. Calling someone Ahiru in Japan would be just as silly as calling someone Duck in the States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.139.39 (talk) 01:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's still her name, even if it's not a 'real' one. Melodia isn't a real name either, but noone would think to call me Melody instead just because that's the English version. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, just because Ahiru is a silly name doesn't mean it isn't her name. After all, it's the ones her classmates use. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Revisit

After looking at the discussion here, I was under the impression that "Ahiru" was the spelling that we were going with in this article. Is that not true? Am I missing something? (Whichever one is chosen, though, IMHO it needs to be explained which one it is and why, to prevent the edit warring Melodia is currently engaging in without discussion.) Kerochan no Miko (talk) 01:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Now I'm confused at myself. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The English name should be used, and the Translation and Japanese name should be noted. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? Kerochan no Miko (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Per our Anime and Manga manual of style, and Wikipedia guidelines regarding names, we use the official English name for the primary form of the series (the anime), which is Duck in the English release per the subtitles and the dubbed version. While we may disagree with the company's choice to use Duck instead of Ahiru, since Duck is what they used, it is what must be used here as we are the English Wikipedia. For each character name, however, we do note the original Japanese names in the series and we note their name in the manga. Collectonian (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

For clarity: this isn't just a WikiProject Anime and Manga decision: it was inherited from the guidelines of WP:MOS-JP on how to render Japanese names. Namely, if there's an official English version, use that (after noting the original form, of course). —Quasirandom (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you - I appreciate the clarification. Kerochan no Miko (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well that is silly. You should use the original Japanese names and note the English names. Because the Japanese names are the original names. The English aren't the original you should stay with what's original. 71.142.208.226 (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

An image removed

Why did the "Uzura" image is removed? I didn't see anyone replacing it with a better one. So why remove it. Just put it for the time being until someone replaces it. Samantha Lim88 01:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It was probably tagged for removal for not haveing a fair use justification. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Character's Ages

Is there any official source for the character's ages? In wiki says Ahiru is thirteen, but I have read she's twelve as well. 201.253.145.180 18:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible Sources

• Anime On DVD reviews can provide information for reception or criticism of Princess Tutu. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep...this one is on my to-do list, soon as I finish up with some others. I have a couple of anime/manga encycs that should also provide good details, particular with production (if Tutu is in there, which I think it will be in at least the newest one I have). :) Collectonian (talk) 19:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed some unsourced statements about Chris Patton taking liberties with the dub. For somereason my edit log didn't note my edit. That statement was speculation as to whether or not he had decided to take liberties with the recording to the dub. I could not verify this. If it can be cited, it can be integrated back into the article. Though really additional changes in dialog in the localization process is common place, and often not the decision of the voice actors. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 19:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with all of the removals you've done so far. This article was in really bad shape and needed it. I have to write a paper this week, but I'm gonna try and get some stuff expanded and work on moving the chars and eps out to properly formatted list articles during this next week or two. Collectonian (talk) 20:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm shying away from editing actual content concerning the storyline as I'm not expertly familiar. Removing obvious original research (see below) and rewording various sections to read more encyclopedic as opposed to conversational. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 21:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed Original Research

Posted for reference, and further inclusion if information can be sourced.

"Role reversal"The first thirteen episodes chronicle Tutu and Kraehe's battle for Prince Mytho's heart: Tutu wishes to free it and Kraehe wishes to keep it for her own. Simultaneously, both Ahiru and Rue are drawn to Mytho as the boy they both love, or are at least infatuated with.Ahiru and Rue embrace their respective identities as Princesses battling for the Prince, and the first season ends with a ballet "duel" in which the Prince chooses between them, as the strength and purity of their affection shows through their ballet. Season 2 becomes a juxtaposition of that theme. Rue clings to Mytho even as Mytho becomes further corrupted by the poison of raven's blood, and his interest in Tutu/Ahiru's role increases and his interest in Rue wanes. At the same time Ahiru and Fakir become closer as they seek to solve the mystery of the story of the Prince and the Raven, and through this process Ahiru/Tutu takes the place Mytho once had in Fakir's life: the person he protects and serves. The story has come full circle-- Rue has fallen from power and Ahiru/Tutu has become the princess with two princes, Fakir and Mytho. In an interesting inversion of roles, Mytho is now to Tutu as Kraehe was to him in season one, and Fakir is to Tutu as Tutu was to Mytho in season one. The dark and cruel knight has become the noble force under the Princess, while the true and good prince has become the dark force and embodiment of the Raven. Role reversals are many and varied over the course of the series, as each of the four main characters (and to a degree such side characters as Drosselmeyer and Edel as well) shift within the story. Antagonists become protagonists, and protagonists become antagonists. The only constant is Ahiru, but even her role changes several times over the series: she changes symbolically as a plot force, emotionally as relationship dynamics change, and physically/literally as she goes back and forth from a duck, a girl, and a prima donna princess.

Posted for reference, and further inclusion if information can be sourced. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed more WP:OR , "Themes" section and "Free will vs. Destiny" sub-heading.

The theme of destiny vs. free will is one of the strongest running themes in Princess Tutu, and eventually moves from metaphorical to literal as the characters question not only their destinies, but the roles they play in the story itself.The first series is the happy ending, in which the characters play out their roles within the tale of the Prince and the Raven: the raven princess captures the prince's heart; the Knight battles to protect the prince, and "dies" at the claws of ravens; Princess Tutu uses dance to profess her love; the Prince is freed and chooses to dance with Tutu instead of Kraehe, casting off the raven's control.The bridge between the first season and the second is Edel: the only character who does not accept her fate. She fights her role (that of a passive messenger), and though she is destroyed in the process, her effort saves Mytho and Tutu, as well as the life of the Knight, Fakir.The second season is the glorious ending, in which the characters fight the roles fate has pressed upon them and eventually fight the story itself. Fakir joins Ahiru to fight against the inevitability of the tragic ending Drosselmeyer demands; Mytho fights his own nature as a person controlled by forces both good and evil; Rue questions her role as Princess Kraehe and eventually rejects it. Even Ahiru questions her role as Princess Tutu and her fate to disappear in a flash of light after saving the Prince.The end of the series is open to interpretation. Some characters seem to accept their fate while in other ways they defy it, but in doing so they end up becoming what they rejected...even as the ultimate course of the story is altered by their defiance.

Posting for reference - per edit log. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 16:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)