Talk:Mordvins

Mordvin (Mirde) peoples

This seems to be a difficult task to provide the correct list of all Mordvin peoples. The first written mention of them is made by Herodotos c. 425-430 BC. under the name of Androfags, living west of Budins. According to old research of Finnish Eero Kuussaari published first in 1935 in Helsinki, where he compared the names written down by Herodotos to the areas where Finno Ugrian peoples lived behind the Scythians, he came to conclusion that Androfags were Proto Mordvins or to be correctly named Proto Mirdes (the humans). Melanklains were Proto Maris and Budins were Proto Ud-murts. This seems to be even today the most reliable source. Nobody have been able to prove his theory wrong. Herodotos understood wrongly the name Mirde or Mordi and named them in Greek language Androfags (man eaters) after what the Greeks living in the colonies in the northern shore of the Black Sea told him. Otherwise his list of "The peoples behind the Scythians between Danube and Don is quite accurace when compared to later historians, as example to Roman Mela in writing in c.100 AD.

During the times more and more evidence had been collected of Mirde people by others, later existed, historians of different ethnic origin. Usually the first written mention is said to be by Jordanes c. 350 AD. in his Ermanarik peoples. Jordanes listed Gothos, Scythas (meaning Slavonic peoples), Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinas, Broncas (or Bovoncas), Merens, Mordens (Remnis), Imnis, and Caris to be ruled by Ermanarik. This is the first written mention, according to the later produced Russian historical version, of the Mirdes which they called Mordva, but behind their back secretly "Poperetshje" (set across).

Isigonus Niceanus told of Androfags "who drunk from their killed enemies skulls and used their killed enemies head skins for their magician seremonies". In 950 their land (The Rava / Rav heights) ie. the west bank, called Mordia by Arab historians. Marco Polo describes of Mordui and Plano Carpini of Morduani. All these were connected to Latin word Mort (Death), meaning people who brings the sure death to their opponents. However, there were (later) several Mirde peoples who spoked different dialects of Proto Mirde (Mordva) language. Meshtsheras who lived in the low land forests and bogs between Kliazma and Oka Rivers. They were the main group of inhabitants of ancient Muromi, Meshtsheri Hillfort highland area and Räsan (Russian version of Räsan become later Riazan or Rjazan) principalities. Mokshas who lived in western part of the Rava (Volga) Heights, and Erzas who lived in the eastern part of the Rav (Volga) heights. South of both these poeples lived little known Burttas which may have been mixture of Mokshas and Erzas, mainly in the Tambov, Penza, and Saratuva / Saratuba areas along the Rivers Erzula and along Rava Igriz east of Rav River. This was the southern limit which was inhabited by the Finno Ugrians in Rava / Rav (later Volga) River area.

During the time of the Great Peoples Wandering, some Finnish sources, based to old names of the peoples in Eastern Central Europe, suggest that at least part of the Mirdes joined the wanderers and eventually settled themselves to Pannonia and Bohemia with other ancient Finno Ugrian tribes.

The first major chance happened in c. 650 when the three Hunnic tribes which later formed the Itil Bolghars penetrated along the east bank of Itil (Volga) to the south of the confluence of the Itil (Volga) and Kama Rivers and formed there their Kingdom of Great Itil (Volga) Bolgharia. The Mirdes who lived on the Rava Heights had close connections with the Bolghars and this peaceful connection remained up to the destruction of Itil Bolgharia in 1237. But the main threat come from the western direction. As a result of the threat of wandering steppe peoples, the Kievan Slavs started to wander eastward to the west bank of River Don (Tanais) middle course. This happened c. 700-800. After the defeat of Vjatitsis (another Valgia (Volga) Finnish people) to Kievan Prince Svjatoslav in fearce battles in 965 and 966 and to the Vladimir I in 981, the Slavs entered in larger numbers to the upper course of River Oka and established their first settlements to Räsan principality. Räsan, and later Muromi become their major places with first direct trade connection with the Merdi peoples. It is from this period when the first Mirde saying of the Slavs have been preserved to history: "minor in arms but plenty of men". In the north the Norsemen origin Slav Princes with assistance of new Norsemen from Baltic Sea area entered to Meriland (Merjaland), north of the Mirdeland, and entered from the north to the Kliazma River and founded Vladimir, or actually Volodmerj (Ruler of Merja) in the place of former Meriland capital Rosta. This was the typical Slav pattern to settle themselves, at first in small numbers, to existing Finno Ugrian villages, trading settlements and even near hillforts to have protection, but then inwandere in greater numbers and settle themselves in their new built Slav villages and outnumber the existing (good in arms but minor in men) Finno Ugrian population. This method of Slavonic penetration has continued ever since. However, some historians locate, according to the name, Rosta to the site of Rostov at the shore of Lake Nero, which was earlier in Finno Urgian times called Lake Mero or Meri after the Meris, "The people of great lakes".

Created image for the article

I chose the 4 most famous and recognizable Mordvins and created an image with them. I think it looks good and there are no license problems with it, so now this article to has it's image. M.V.E.i. 16:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Dear contributors, Very much appreciate your efforts but. There is a misunderstanding in the very title of the article. I am Mokshan and believe I never seen people you call Mordvins. Still there are no ethnic Czechoslovaks or Khanty-Mansis. Russians never cared about that and used to call Mokshans and Erzyans just Mordvins. In fact believe me Mokshans do not understand Erzyan language though both languages are close as they are Mordvinic branch of Fenno-Volgaics. Please help me to split the article into two parts. It was great you mentioned famous Mokshans and Erzyans among 'Mordvins'. I'm still not good at using all Wikipedia tools but hope to improve in using them soon. Pls have a look at my rough description of Mokshan people (I put the link into the article 'Mordvins') and advise if we can settle the misunderstaning. Thanx in advance --Numulunj pilgae 08:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I would like to quote some discussion about the page move at User talk:Untifler:

First of all, it is absolutely incorrect to move "Morvins" to "Volgaic Finns", due to classification:

There are two general branches of the Finnic peoples in the region: Uralian Finns: Udmurts and Komi (1) and Volga Finns, including Mordvin peoples and Mari peoples, as well as Muroma, Meshchera and Merya in the Middle Ages (2). Volga Finns, in turn, are divided into Northern - Mari peoples (Hill, Meadow and Eastern; possibly this group also included Merya) and southern Volga Finns , which are Mordvin peoples Moksha and Erzya, and three subgroups, which are also belong either to Moksha or to Eryza; historically this group included Muroma and Meshchera, (however, it is disputed). The classification is such, but I m not sure that all terms I use are correct...

So, as you see, Mokshans and Eryzas are included firstly to the Mordvin peoples, and only then Mordvin peoples are included to the Volga Finns. Another dispute is "are Mokshans and Erzyans separate people, or subgroups only"? I really dont know, what POV prevails now. Surely, both POVs exist, and it should be mentioned in all articles. As for Maris, they are used to be divided to @subgroups@, not "peoples". Mainly, the concept of "two peoples" and disuse of "Mordvin" term is likely to Mordvin (sorry, Moksha and Erzya) schlars themselves, whereas Russian classification prefer to use cupola term "Mordvins".

As result, This page should be switched back to "Mordvins" or "Mordvin peoples", as this term is widely used, and "Volgaic Finns" should be rewritten to include more about Maris, and historical Volga Finnic peoples.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Because of this, I will be moving this page back to its original title, and will create a new Volga Finns page. Khoikhoi 09:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Untifler reg Volga Finns. This information can be easily proved by Encyclopaedia Britannica. As to Mordvin peoples pls look at these two docs from suri.ee below. The problem is first it was banned in USSR to use term 'finno-ugric' referring to Moksha and Erzya (political grounds). Mordvinian okrug first was planned to be named (Erzyano-mokshanskiy) Erzya and Moksha okrug but in 1930 some Mr. Surdin proposed to shorten the okrug name. This was the year this misunderstanding was born. Before 1930 term "Mordvins" was used referring to Erzya only (it can be easily proved starting from old Russian chronicles as Khazar II mentioned below). Generally situation is as following: Moksha and Erzya do not doubt they are separate peoples, just look at official Mordvinian Appeal but other sources do not give clear information what Mordvins are as they are not sure after all this confusion: one republic but two peoples or one people with two names, etc., look at suri.ee description. It is not the same as with Maris as all groups of Maris call themselves 'Mary' but Moksha and Erzya call themselves Moksha and Erzya. So, my conclusion is we may not leave this article as it or else this 70-years old confusion is gonna stay forever.--Numulunj pilgae 13:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)

Moksha and Ersa Languages

My idea is to provide some kind of reliable article of both "Rava / Rav cousins" by expanding the historical article up to the October Revolution 1917. However, according to the Finnish sources both Ersas and Mokshas spoked up to 1242 nearly similar Proto Mirde language but with different dialects. In addition there were Burtta dialect which had more loan words from Skyytta ( Scythian ) language and by now dissapeared Metsheri, Muromi and Vjatitsi languages which of which Metsheri and Muromi languages were dialects of Proto Mirde / Merdi (men) language. Thus all these dialects might be placed under one title Mirde ( Merdi ) People up to 1242, the nearly total destruction of Mirde ( Merdi ) people by the Mongols during the Great Rebellion against the Mongol War Lords. Only after 1242 Moksha and Ersa languages separated from each other. The similar pattern was also found between Estonian and Finnish languages in the Baltic Sea Area. I agree that after 1242 both Ersa and Moksha languages should be described separately from each other. Metsheri language with refugees from Oka valley and Metsheri ( Russian version: Meshchorsk ) Lowland brought Metsheri influence to Moksha language. It is really a pity that the Russians had not taken any notes of separate Moksha and Ersa languages and called all under the name Mordva and even named the land as Mordovia. The same apply to the Big Russians who do not know their own history well in the Moskova area before the Mongol Invasion. What is known here in Finland is that the best of Mirde ( Merdi ) warriors, about 25.000 were executed by the Mongol War Lord Subutai when they refused to follow the Mongol Army west of Dinjeper ( Dnjeper ) after taking part of the conquering the Kyjev ( Kiev ) in December 1240. Then there is a big question mark how many of the Mokshas adopted with the refugee Metsheris and Muromis the Turkic Tatar language in 1242-1451 and were converted to the Musulmanni ( Islam ) Faith and escaped East of Rava and become known as Mishär ( Shining ) Tatars. But any way, the old religion Gods remained the same with both Ersa and Moksha languages with different variation names. Some of Mishär Tatars stayed West of Rava / Rav ( Volga ) and their descendants live still there in Mishär Tatar villages among the Mokshas and Ersas. One problem is also the great influence of pro Russian history writing which has been learned as a pure fact in the schools and universities. Ones again, this history of the peoples in the Rava / Rav Bend is one of the most complicated in land of Rosh ( Russia ). I think those who can nowadays be called Mordvians are those Russificated Mokshas and Ersas from Obranjosh ( Nizhnij Novgorod ) area who live in Nizhnij Novgorod Oblast and speak Russian as their primary language.

Peharps one can also found out if Vladimir Iljitsh Uljanin was of origin Moksha or Ersa from one of Uljanin named villages. His father changed his name from Uljanin to Uljanov. Maybe the most famous of Mordvins in modern history. Also old famous Mirde ( Princes ) Inazörs as Abram ( Obram ) and Purgaz are missing from the list.

---

Dear Contributor and Numulunj pilgae,

First of all thank you very much for your contributions. Official sources do not provide correct and detailed info on Mokshan and Erzyan history. I'm sure it was not easy for you to collect so many interesting references and details on thir history. Nevertheless some hints and ideas are wrong. Actually Mokshas and Erzyas had different languages and different traditions since at least AD 1000. It can be proved by archelogical and linguistic data. In the same time they are close and in many old chronicles Moksha and Erzya referred to as Mordvins or Tatars or even Mordvin Tatars. It is pretty complicated now separating information related to Erzya only or Moksha only but is feasible. Hope we can work it out!--Moxelanus 11:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC) 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Why have removed clause about Erzua people?

Hello! There is a reasonable question why my clause about Erzia people has been redirected on Mordvins? Such people is not present, therefore, I consider, that it is not correct. эрзяне do not name itself a nickname and pseudo etnonims "mordvins". Especially on page of discussion quite correctly it is written - such people is not present. What for then to mix 4 people in a heap? As there are two languages - Moksha and Erya Languages, but "Mordovian" are not present. And a parameter of people is its language. I ask to explain your position. Many thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mordvins

Term "moksherzyan" as well as "erzyamokshan" are rarely used in Moksha and Erzya newspapers when translating texts from Russian instead "Mordvins". Originally this was Erzya who referred to as Mordvins and it can be easily proved by old Russian chronicles and other medieval sources. After establishing Mordvinia okrug (later Mordvinian autonomous republic) many people (ethnic Moksha, Erzya, Shokhsa, Mishari Tatars, Russians etc.) who were born there and later moved to another place started to call themselves Mordvins as they originally came from Mordvinia.--Khazar II (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Mokshas are not mordvins

I am ethnic Moksha born in Mordovia. I think this is a total misunderstanding. If part of Mokshas live in Mordovia it doesn't mean Mokshas are Mordvins. If speaking of those who live in Mordovia - yes you can call those Erzyas, Mokshas, Tatars and Russians "Mordovians" but this not an ethnic unity, it is clear. What is the problem about my people. Moksha are people with their own language, traditions and culture but I can see information on Moksha only in article "Mordvins". Why? I saw history log, page "Moksha people" was even deleted by some user. This is vandalism! Kranch 17:53, 02 June 2008 (UTC)

It completely agree, it is vandalism! I am Erzya, and my ancestors were erzyans'. And language at us erzyan, any people mordva is not present also language too Mordovian. And that territorially Mordovia has included two ethnic nationalities is history a mistake because all over again wished to make district Erzjansko-Mokshanskiy, but have made Mordovian. I for returning of pages Erzya people and Moksha people, differently am not the free encyclopedia, and continuous dancing "under a pipe of authority". Thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we start by providing reliable sources instead of personal accounts. For example, the Mordvin article from Encyclopædia Britannica says, "They are divided into two dialect groups, the Moksha and Erzya." Khoikhoi 22:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Back to our discussion I would like to emphasize all reliable sources are just copying official Russian Federation information on RF administrative subdivision. Since there is Mordovia Republic we must admit there is ethnic population with the same name speaking Mordvin language. Mordvin is an alternative name for Erzya language see Ethnologue. Since Ethnologue is a reliable source we must redirect article Mordvin(s) to Erzia (people) respectively with proper explanation of this alternate name history background. --Khazar II (talk) 12:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Why no one speaks Mordvinian? Mordvins do not exist

Please read this--Numulunj pilgae 15:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

um, we state it's an exonym. What is your problem? dab (𒁳) 17:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Ersas and Mokshas

It is sometimes difficult to be of Finno Ugrian origin. If the cultural differences are so great that those living in the western part of Rava / Rav upland against those living mainly in the eastern part of of the Rava / Rav upland that they cannot understand each others, this separation must have started sometimes during 900 - 1200. As outsider I suppose that an example of common language backround must be shown.

I show with example the difference between todays Finnish, Komi and Udmurt languages on simple way. Here it comes.

• One is yksi in Finnish, yks in Estonian, tev in Komi, odug in Udmurt, vejke (ve) in Ersa.
• Two is kaksi in Finnish, kaks in Estonian,kyk in Komi, kyk in Udmurt, kavto in Ersa.
• Three is kolme in Finnish, kolm in Estonian, kuim in Komi, kuin in Udmurt, kolmo in Ersa.
• Four is neljä in Finnish, neli in Estonian, nel in Komi, njul in Udmurt, nile in Ersa.
• Five is viisi in Finnish, viis in Estonian, vit in Komi, vit in Udmurt, vetje in Ersa.
• Six is kuusi in Finnish, kuus in Estonian, kwat in Komi, kuat in Udmurt, koto in Ersa.
• Seven is seitsemän in Finnish, seitsen in Estonian, sisem in Komi, sizjym in Udmurt, sisem in Ersa.
• Eight is kahdeksan in Finnish, kaheksa in Estonian, kekjamus in Komi, tjamys in Udmurt, kavsko in Ersa.
• Nine is yhdeksän in Finnish, yheksä in Estonian, ekmus in Komi, ukmus in Udmurt, vejksje in Ersa.
• Ten is kymmenen in Finnish, kymmen in Estonia, das in Komi, das in Udmurt, kemen in Ersa.
• Hundred is sata in Finnish, sada in Estonian, se in Komi, sju in Udmurt, sjado in Ersa.
• Thousand is tuhat in Finnish, tuhanne in Estonian, sjurs in Komi, sjurs in Udmurt, tjezha in Ersa.

I suppose that the difference between Ersa and Moksha is not so great than between Permian Komi and Baltic Finnish. I am not sure if the Estonian words are all in correct form, but as one can see they are very close of Finnish. Sata (hundred) in Finnish comes from ancient Persian language for a hundred.

If you are taken the cultural differences between Tver Karelians living at Ruameska 200 km north west of Moskova and True Finns living at Loimaa 65 north east of Turku I suppose that despite the common basic mother language they do not understand each others at ones, but within a month they found more and more common souding words despite of strong Russian language influence in Tver Karelian dialect. One have strong Greek Orthodox cultural backround and the other one has Lutherian cultural heritage. So what is really the difference between Ersas and Mokshas?